I would have mentioned that earlier, but the idea of a player hiding a sheet from a DM is so absurd that a need for a clarification never even occurred to me.
Some players can be touchy about DMs accessing their sheets too.
To your situation, I don't see this as a predicament or a dilemma and certainly not the "game ender" being augured by one point of view. Are you and the player claiming privacy violation the only members of the party? No? Then this gets worked out at the table. Table determines whether party access to everyone sheets is good for team play and transparency (avoiding, conscious or unconscious sandbagging, subterfuge and maybe even plot twists the DMs not aware of) or players are granted privacy over their sheets. Once that consensus is achieved, whichever player was retroactively out of bounds literally admits a party foul, and everyone moves on. This is the equivalent of a workplace fridge etiquette concern (is the milk/creamer common or individual, if something stinks can anyone toss it, etc.) not something that needs overwrought restorative counseling or voluntary removal from game.
I very much like not knowing other PC's abilities - in real life you're unlikely to know what everybody else in your team can do.
Depends on what your team does in real life. Regular work? Sure, the team is largely a product of HR processes. Sports, intramural or gym pick up game? Yeah people are going to be amazed and disappointed with their line up. Pro athletes? Not only do you have insight into the capabilities and limits of your team, you got a good sense of the team you're playing against too. Tactical situations. Yeah, if your a patrol officer showing up to all all units respond scenario and the team is dependent on who was on rotation in that patrol sector, or you're talking about a regular infantry unit where people are rotating in and out of enlistment contracts, you figure out who knows what and can do what through trial by fire. Police or military "operator" types (I'm reading Heat 2 so I'll throw out the term "highline crews" too, Heat 2 is awesome by the way), those folks will often cross train into each others specialities, to some degree in order compensate or fill in for contingencies, but it also gives everyone a strong grounding in what everyone's capabilities which helps with operational/tactical planning.
6 people (including the GM) think I’ve cheated or done the equivalent of breaking into their house, 1 person hasn’t commented, the last person sided with me, but hasn’t defended what I’ve done to the others
I told this that many people don’t feel char sheets are private and I pointed them to this thread. They’ve ignored it.
The whole thing has been pretty overwhelming to me and I told them that I’m dropping out of all communication for a week in the hopes that after that time we can discuss it with cooler heads.
I’m sorry to hear that this has caused such an uproar. What exactly do they think you did to consider cheating? Just knowing some of the stuff on their sheet I wouldn’t consider cheating, might be rude without asking but not cheating.
6 people (including the GM) think I’ve cheated or done the equivalent of breaking into their house, 1 person hasn’t commented, the last person sided with me, but hasn’t defended what I’ve done to the others
I told this that many people don’t feel char sheets are private and I pointed them to this thread. They’ve ignored it.
The whole thing has been pretty overwhelming to me and I told them that I’m dropping out of all communication for a week in the hopes that after that time we can discuss it with cooler heads.
Yeah, I think an air clearing conversation may be in order and you may have to cop to the "party foul" and either the group can accept that, or it may be best to move on. "Invasion of privacy" is really overwrought in this context in my opinion (and I'm actually a big advocate of personal autonomy and privacy IRL), but I suppose it may be a sentiment held by those who utilize TTRPG spaces as a place to really ground their autonomy and agency.
D&D isn't poker and there's no need to play one's cards close to their vest unless we're talking an "intrigue" game with secrecy protocols in place. The mentioned here and elsewhere, DM and PC coordinating a secret to surprise the rest of the players with. I've never seen a table go "wow" at that. More often the players feel sidelined by whatever side game the DM and player were doing to accommodate the drama. It's best practice for a table to know what everyone brings to the table in both a character sheet and personal presence (in this case privacy insistence) case. Again, D&D is a team sport and strategy is not "meta" except in places where players just want to enforce boundaries for the sake of boundaries. A character sheet isn't PII.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
6 people (including the GM) think I’ve cheated or done the equivalent of breaking into their house, 1 person hasn’t commented, the last person sided with me, but hasn’t defended what I’ve done to the others
I told this that many people don’t feel char sheets are private and I pointed them to this thread. They’ve ignored it.
The whole thing has been pretty overwhelming to me and I told them that I’m dropping out of all communication for a week in the hopes that after that time we can discuss it with cooler heads.
Yeah, I think an air clearing conversation may be in order and you may have to cop to the "party foul" and either the group can accept that, or it may be best to move on. "Invasion of privacy" is really overwrought in this context in my opinion (and I'm actually a big advocate of personal autonomy and privacy IRL), but I suppose it may be a sentiment held by those who utilize TTRPG spaces as a place to really ground their autonomy and agency.
D&D isn't poker and there's no need to play one's cards close to their vest unless we're talking an "intrigue" game with secrecy protocols in place. The mentioned here and elsewhere, DM and PC coordinating a secret to surprise the rest of the players with. I've never seen a table go "wow" at that. More often the players feel sidelined by whatever side game the DM and player were doing to accommodate the drama. It's best practice for a table to know what everyone brings to the table in both a character sheet and personal presence (in this case privacy insistence) case. Again, D&D is a team sport and strategy is not "meta" except in places where players just want to enforce boundaries for the sake of boundaries. A character sheet isn't PII.
What really bothers me is that I've been friends with all these people for a very long time. I considered them some of my best friends. It has been eye-opening to me that, when an issue arises, their initial reaction is to think there was malign intent rather than a simple misunderstanding. It has caused me to re-evaluate our relationship.
Some players can be touchy about DMs accessing their sheets too.
I can't understand under what conditions a player would want a DM to NOT know their character sheet.
As a DM, I would be worried that such a player is somehow fudging their abilities.
This isn't speculative on anyone mentioned in this thread at all, but people who have been abused are often intensely private and find it difficult to be open. When that's the case, then I could easily see them as trying to shield their sheets, not out of intent to cheat, but self protection. It's not entirely rational, but the mentality of shielding yourself from others is both natural and understandable in such circumstances.
Which is why I'd always ask before looking at someone's sheet. As a DM, it would obviously be a one time ask permission that covers the campaign. As a player, I'd just send a message or ask (depending on circumstances), with something as simple as "Hey, I'm curious about your character and was interested in how you did this,.would you mind if I had a peak so I could learn from it?" It doesn't have to be much, but it would be polite and also help those who have had difficulties in the past develop a relationship of trust.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's one circumstance in which a player might not want even a DM digging through their character sheet and it's not about cheating or dishonesty.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think players are just more attached to their characters than we used to be in earlier editions when PC deaths were a common thing. Not to say that we didn't get attached to our characters, but it usually, at least for me, happened after we survived the first 3-5 levels and were not as likely to get taken out (there were no Death Saves and 0 HP meant rolling a new PC). And I think part of that is from greater focus on role playing instead of roll playing. When I played AD&D it was dungeon crawls and modules and Swing first and ask questions later. At least that is how our group played.
For some players, looking at their character sheet is kind of like walking into their house, snooping around their bedroom and peeking in their underwear drawer. They "rolled" it up, crafted their background and backstory, gave it a name, and have a vision of where they want to go with their character, and it becomes precious to them.
At least, that's just my take on the issue as another possible reason. I'm just sorry to hear that this situation for the OP has blown up into such a big issue. I believe a player's character sheet is their business and the DM's business (as far as approving the character and how it fits into their campaign/world) only. Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with someone looking at my character sheet. I wouldn't say what the OP did was inconsequential but at most would illicit a "hey! don't do that". The reaction of most of the group seems a little over the top, at least how we hear it from the OP's point of view. Especially coming from friends of many years.
The DM absolutely needs to have access to everything on the PCs character sheet for a number of reasons for example
The DM is the referee they need to be able to know when a player does something outside their abilities (accidentally or on purpose)
The DM is likely to want to have the PC features c9me into play, if the Cleric speaks Celestial have them find something written in celestial
The DM will take account of pc abilities when balancing encounters
Furthermore the DM should know how the player wants to develop their character in future, if they want to take levels in warlock then they will need to have an encounter with the patron to make the pact.
How much other players know depends on the table. A fiend warlock is unlikely to tell their mates of the deal they made. Some tables would thing the PLAYERS should know so they can work as a team in fights, other groups think that is likely to lead to meta gaming so best keep the rest of the players in the dark.
Imagine a party with an 18 charisma sorcerer, a 16 charisma paladin and an 8 charisma monk. In some parties the sorcerer would be the exclusive face of the group because that is what is best for the party, in others the Paladin would also frequently be the face, they are pretty good at it and the characters might not be able to tell the sorcerer is slightly better. In yet more groups the monk would be just as likely to try to persuade npcs because their character is not the type to just hide in the background in social encounters. All styles are fine.
The DM absolutely needs to have access to everything on the PCs character sheet for a number of reasons for example
The DM is the referee they need to be able to know when a player does something outside their abilities (accidentally or on purpose)
The DM is likely to want to have the PC features c9me into play, if the Cleric speaks Celestial have them find something written in celestial
The DM will take account of pc abilities when balancing encounters
Furthermore the DM should know how the player wants to develop their character in future, if they want to take levels in warlock then they will need to have an encounter with the patron to make the pact.
Yep. It should be apparent from the thread that I'm not endorsing players being secretive about their sheets toward DMs, or other players for that matter, but it is a posture sometimes taken. And yeah, it is usually because of "fuzzy" sheet
I've seen tables where they go heavy on the roleplaying. Only the DM has seen all the character sheets. The players reveal as much or as little as they want. They are usually very open about what they can do for the teams' sakes, but their histories are often played close-to-the-chest.
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, and it doesn't have to be considered PvP just because something isn't revealed: There is one group where one of the players is not proficient with the character, and a recurring gag is the player realizing that there's an ability the character can use which would have been useful many times prior. This isn't PvP but, rather, just roleplay and couldn't be accomplished if everyone knew everyone else's character sheet.
As for the DM, it helps the DM plan interesting encounters having the stats and backstories. I do not personally know of any table where the DM didn't have a copy of the character sheets. None of those DMs revealed anything to others and left it up to the players to decide.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
To be fair I have sat at a table with two players One who made massive convoluted plots on how to kill the all other PCs, one on one little realising how unpopular he was and any battle would never have been on on one and as the DM told me later his plans were not the best and clearly had flaws like casting spells at a Paladin with a holy avenger. The second was always trying to figure out and was quite happy to think he could kill all the other characters on a one on one battle. Sitting beside them rather than having my character sheet sat in the open in front of me it sat in my pad, yes some of used hand written sheets once upon a time. This was the reason I kept my sheet hidden from other players, to hide my ace in the hole or my pretend ace in the hole. I have never seen someone enjoy such a minute of happiness after being charmed and told to attack the party, one on one fight didn't last long only one round. So basically my point is sometimes there are reasons, though everybody's sheets being available on-line in a folder makes this all so much trickier.
The other thing is knowing another player's abilities is sometimes handy. "Hey dude did you forget don't you get advantage on charm saves?" Not every one has encyclopaedic knowledge of their characters abilities or the game.
I've seen tables where they go heavy on the roleplaying. Only the DM has seen all the character sheets. The players reveal as much or as little as they want. They are usually very open about what they can do for the teams' sakes, but their histories are often played close-to-the-chest.
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, and it doesn't have to be considered PvP just because something isn't revealed: There is one group where one of the players is not proficient with the character, and a recurring gag is the player realizing that there's an ability the character can use which would have been useful many times prior. This isn't PvP but, rather, just roleplay and couldn't be accomplished if everyone knew everyone else's character sheet.
As for the DM, it helps the DM plan interesting encounters having the stats and backstories. I do not personally know of any table where the DM didn't have a copy of the character sheets. None of those DMs revealed anything to others and left it up to the players to decide.
Frankly, that opinion bewilders me. Are you asserting that a player can’t role play a character who doesn’t know something the player does? That’s what you seem to be saying. But, I role play such PCs all the time. I just compartmentalize such information in my head and don’t let the part that is managing the role play have access to it.
To be fair I have sat at a table with two players One who made massive convoluted plots on how to kill the all other PCs, one on one little realising how unpopular he was and any battle would never have been on on one and as the DM told me later his plans were not the best and clearly had flaws like casting spells at a Paladin with a holy avenger. The second was always trying to figure out and was quite happy to think he could kill all the other characters on a one on one battle. Sitting beside them rather than having my character sheet sat in the open in front of me it sat in my pad, yes some of used hand written sheets once upon a time. This was the reason I kept my sheet hidden from other players, to hide my ace in the hole or my pretend ace in the hole. I have never seen someone enjoy such a minute of happiness after being charmed and told to attack the party, one on one fight didn't last long only one round. So basically my point is sometimes there are reasons, though everybody's sheets being available on-line in a folder makes this all so much trickier.
Why weren’t these players disinvited? DnD is not a competition.
6 people (including the GM) think I’ve cheated or done the equivalent of breaking into their house, 1 person hasn’t commented, the last person sided with me, but hasn’t defended what I’ve done to the others
I told this that many people don’t feel char sheets are private and I pointed them to this thread. They’ve ignored it.
The whole thing has been pretty overwhelming to me and I told them that I’m dropping out of all communication for a week in the hopes that after that time we can discuss it with cooler heads.
They've obviously never actually had someone break into their house, or car, or high school locker. For the record, I'm not wishing that one anyone; it's horrible. But, geez, maybe get a little perspective. Google probably knows more about them irl than you do about their fictional avatars. I'm mind-boggled by the attitude. How could it even be cheating? You are all on the same team. Is it unfair to the monsters?
It's a game. A game. Make-believe. A kind of toy (the best toy ever, but a toy nonetheless). And one where, again, everyone is on the same team. It's not like its reading someone's diary, or insider trading, or copying the answers to the big math test. I don't even know how to begin to advise you.
The other thing is knowing another player's abilities is sometimes handy. "Hey dude did you forget don't you get advantage on charm saves?" Not every one has encyclopaedic knowledge of their characters abilities or the game.
Yes, it can be handy. Helping other players out when they forget that they have advantage on a save is nice. But it can also be an issue. "You have <insert spell>, why don't you go over there and cast it at X, Y, or Z", can be helpful or trying to tell another player how to play their character. "Why don't you use Action Surge" might also be helpful, but at what point does helpful turn into bossing around another player. That depends on the table and the players. No two tables will be exactly the same.
I'm playing a Druid currently and another player, who has more 5E experience than I do, has played a druid in the past so she knows what spells I could have prepared. I don't use Conjure Animals as I know it can be a problem slowing down combat, they can go on long enough with 6 of us at the table. I did use it in earlier levels, but I consulted with my DM and chose to use two Dire Wolves when I did use that spell, for ease of use and not bogging down combat with 8 velociraptors or something similar. This was before the other player joined the group. I haven't had it prepared or cast since she has joined. And not once did she say, "why don't you use Conjure Animals? It's really a great spell" And it's not because she can't see my character sheet (we use Roll20 and Beyond20 extension to play) but because she is a good player and not trying to tell me how to play mine. And I don't try to tell her how to play hers. We do, however, help each other out if there are rules, or ability questions, etc... Not all groups are like that. There are plenty of "RPG horror stories" out there that proves that point.
So it all comes down to each individual table and player to determine what is appropriate, and there may be differing opinions at the table. But that doesn't necessarily mean the group, or a player, isn't compatible and can't have fun all the same.
It's just about respecting the other players at the table and their opinions, even if you don't agree.
The other thing is knowing another player's abilities is sometimes handy. "Hey dude did you forget don't you get advantage on charm saves?" Not every one has encyclopaedic knowledge of their characters abilities or the game.
Yes, it can be handy. Helping other players out when they forget that they have advantage on a save is nice. But it can also be an issue. "You have <insert spell>, why don't you go over there and cast it at X, Y, or Z", can be helpful or trying to tell another player how to play their character. "Why don't you use Action Surge" might also be helpful, but at what point does helpful turn into bossing around another player. That depends on the table and the players. No two tables will be exactly the same.
I'm playing a Druid currently and another player, who has more 5E experience than I do, has played a druid in the past so she knows what spells I could have prepared. I don't use Conjure Animals as I know it can be a problem slowing down combat, they can go on long enough with 6 of us at the table. I did use it in earlier levels, but I consulted with my DM and chose to use two Dire Wolves when I did use that spell, for ease of use and not bogging down combat with 8 velociraptors or something similar. This was before the other player joined the group. I haven't had it prepared or cast since she has joined. And not once did she say, "why don't you use Conjure Animals? It's really a great spell" And it's not because she can't see my character sheet (we use Roll20 and Beyond20 extension to play) but because she is a good player and not trying to tell me how to play mine. And I don't try to tell her how to play hers. We do, however, help each other out if there are rules, or ability questions, etc... Not all groups are like that. There are plenty of "RPG horror stories" out there that proves that point.
So it all comes down to each individual table and player to determine what is appropriate, and there may be differing opinions at the table. But that doesn't necessarily mean the group, or a player, isn't compatible and can't have fun all the same.
It's just about respecting the other players at the table and their opinions, even if you don't agree.
That’s part of it. The other part is to be willing to accept that, sometimes, friends will cross a line and not even know they are doing it. In this case, this thread has shown that not everyone thinks char sheets are private property and, therefore, someone might not even realize that some people do until it is too late to do anything about it.
I wouldn"t take offense at somebody looking at my character sheet. I would be offended if they took that information and told me what to do during a game. I would not consider it cheating at all.
Sometimes I take a peek at other PC sheets but mostly to see if the party has its bases covered and to avoid duplicating somebody"s schtick. If two people already have Cure Wounds or some such, I know I don"t have to take it. Or if somebody has a magic axe, I"ll make sure my weapon is something different.
It is unfortunate that the OP is having this experience, and I really don"t know how they can fix it. They already apologized for doing it and said it won"t happen again. I think I don"t understand the other folks" view point on the cheating issue.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I've seen tables where they go heavy on the roleplaying. Only the DM has seen all the character sheets. The players reveal as much or as little as they want. They are usually very open about what they can do for the teams' sakes, but their histories are often played close-to-the-chest.
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, and it doesn't have to be considered PvP just because something isn't revealed: There is one group where one of the players is not proficient with the character, and a recurring gag is the player realizing that there's an ability the character can use which would have been useful many times prior. This isn't PvP but, rather, just roleplay and couldn't be accomplished if everyone knew everyone else's character sheet.
As for the DM, it helps the DM plan interesting encounters having the stats and backstories. I do not personally know of any table where the DM didn't have a copy of the character sheets. None of those DMs revealed anything to others and left it up to the players to decide.
Frankly, that opinion bewilders me. Are you asserting that a player can’t role play a character who doesn’t know something the player does? That’s what you seem to be saying. But, I role play such PCs all the time. I just compartmentalize such information in my head and don’t let the part that is managing the role play have access to it.
Are you saying they should need to?
Some of the worst words I keep hearing and seeing are "I just _____" or "All you need to do is _____" as advice. Nobody is the same. That's invariably the beginning of the worst advice people can give to someone else.
Never assume everyone should play as you do. Let people immerse how they wish to immerse. Be bewildered all you want, but it helps to think of it that other people are not you.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I've seen tables where they go heavy on the roleplaying. Only the DM has seen all the character sheets. The players reveal as much or as little as they want. They are usually very open about what they can do for the teams' sakes, but their histories are often played close-to-the-chest.
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, and it doesn't have to be considered PvP just because something isn't revealed: There is one group where one of the players is not proficient with the character, and a recurring gag is the player realizing that there's an ability the character can use which would have been useful many times prior. This isn't PvP but, rather, just roleplay and couldn't be accomplished if everyone knew everyone else's character sheet.
As for the DM, it helps the DM plan interesting encounters having the stats and backstories. I do not personally know of any table where the DM didn't have a copy of the character sheets. None of those DMs revealed anything to others and left it up to the players to decide.
Frankly, that opinion bewilders me. Are you asserting that a player can’t role play a character who doesn’t know something the player does? That’s what you seem to be saying. But, I role play such PCs all the time. I just compartmentalize such information in my head and don’t let the part that is managing the role play have access to it.
Are you saying they should need to?
Some of the worst words I keep hearing and seeing are "I just _____" or "All you need to do is _____" as advice. Nobody is the same. That's invariably the beginning of the worst advice people can give to someone else.
Never assume everyone should play as you do. Let people immerse how they wish to immerse. Be bewildered all you want, but it helps to think of it that other people are not you.
I don’t understand how you even made the leap from my saying that it is possible to roleplay a character who doesn’t know something the player does to saying that a player should have to roleplay a character who doesn’t know something the player does. Could you explain that leap to me?
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I’m sorry to hear that this has caused such an uproar. What exactly do they think you did to consider cheating? Just knowing some of the stuff on their sheet I wouldn’t consider cheating, might be rude without asking but not cheating.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah, I think an air clearing conversation may be in order and you may have to cop to the "party foul" and either the group can accept that, or it may be best to move on. "Invasion of privacy" is really overwrought in this context in my opinion (and I'm actually a big advocate of personal autonomy and privacy IRL), but I suppose it may be a sentiment held by those who utilize TTRPG spaces as a place to really ground their autonomy and agency.
D&D isn't poker and there's no need to play one's cards close to their vest unless we're talking an "intrigue" game with secrecy protocols in place. The mentioned here and elsewhere, DM and PC coordinating a secret to surprise the rest of the players with. I've never seen a table go "wow" at that. More often the players feel sidelined by whatever side game the DM and player were doing to accommodate the drama. It's best practice for a table to know what everyone brings to the table in both a character sheet and personal presence (in this case privacy insistence) case. Again, D&D is a team sport and strategy is not "meta" except in places where players just want to enforce boundaries for the sake of boundaries. A character sheet isn't PII.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
What really bothers me is that I've been friends with all these people for a very long time. I considered them some of my best friends. It has been eye-opening to me that, when an issue arises, their initial reaction is to think there was malign intent rather than a simple misunderstanding. It has caused me to re-evaluate our relationship.
I can't understand under what conditions a player would want a DM to NOT know their character sheet.
As a DM, I would be worried that such a player is somehow fudging their abilities.
This isn't speculative on anyone mentioned in this thread at all, but people who have been abused are often intensely private and find it difficult to be open. When that's the case, then I could easily see them as trying to shield their sheets, not out of intent to cheat, but self protection. It's not entirely rational, but the mentality of shielding yourself from others is both natural and understandable in such circumstances.
Which is why I'd always ask before looking at someone's sheet. As a DM, it would obviously be a one time ask permission that covers the campaign. As a player, I'd just send a message or ask (depending on circumstances), with something as simple as "Hey, I'm curious about your character and was interested in how you did this,.would you mind if I had a peak so I could learn from it?" It doesn't have to be much, but it would be polite and also help those who have had difficulties in the past develop a relationship of trust.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's one circumstance in which a player might not want even a DM digging through their character sheet and it's not about cheating or dishonesty.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think players are just more attached to their characters than we used to be in earlier editions when PC deaths were a common thing. Not to say that we didn't get attached to our characters, but it usually, at least for me, happened after we survived the first 3-5 levels and were not as likely to get taken out (there were no Death Saves and 0 HP meant rolling a new PC). And I think part of that is from greater focus on role playing instead of roll playing. When I played AD&D it was dungeon crawls and modules and Swing first and ask questions later. At least that is how our group played.
For some players, looking at their character sheet is kind of like walking into their house, snooping around their bedroom and peeking in their underwear drawer. They "rolled" it up, crafted their background and backstory, gave it a name, and have a vision of where they want to go with their character, and it becomes precious to them.
At least, that's just my take on the issue as another possible reason. I'm just sorry to hear that this situation for the OP has blown up into such a big issue. I believe a player's character sheet is their business and the DM's business (as far as approving the character and how it fits into their campaign/world) only. Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with someone looking at my character sheet. I wouldn't say what the OP did was inconsequential but at most would illicit a "hey! don't do that". The reaction of most of the group seems a little over the top, at least how we hear it from the OP's point of view. Especially coming from friends of many years.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The DM absolutely needs to have access to everything on the PCs character sheet for a number of reasons for example
Furthermore the DM should know how the player wants to develop their character in future, if they want to take levels in warlock then they will need to have an encounter with the patron to make the pact.
How much other players know depends on the table. A fiend warlock is unlikely to tell their mates of the deal they made. Some tables would thing the PLAYERS should know so they can work as a team in fights, other groups think that is likely to lead to meta gaming so best keep the rest of the players in the dark.
Imagine a party with an 18 charisma sorcerer, a 16 charisma paladin and an 8 charisma monk. In some parties the sorcerer would be the exclusive face of the group because that is what is best for the party, in others the Paladin would also frequently be the face, they are pretty good at it and the characters might not be able to tell the sorcerer is slightly better. In yet more groups the monk would be just as likely to try to persuade npcs because their character is not the type to just hide in the background in social encounters. All styles are fine.
Yep. It should be apparent from the thread that I'm not endorsing players being secretive about their sheets toward DMs, or other players for that matter, but it is a posture sometimes taken. And yeah, it is usually because of "fuzzy" sheet
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I've seen tables where they go heavy on the roleplaying. Only the DM has seen all the character sheets. The players reveal as much or as little as they want. They are usually very open about what they can do for the teams' sakes, but their histories are often played close-to-the-chest.
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, and it doesn't have to be considered PvP just because something isn't revealed:
There is one group where one of the players is not proficient with the character, and a recurring gag is the player realizing that there's an ability the character can use which would have been useful many times prior. This isn't PvP but, rather, just roleplay and couldn't be accomplished if everyone knew everyone else's character sheet.
As for the DM, it helps the DM plan interesting encounters having the stats and backstories. I do not personally know of any table where the DM didn't have a copy of the character sheets. None of those DMs revealed anything to others and left it up to the players to decide.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
To be fair I have sat at a table with two players
One who made massive convoluted plots on how to kill the all other PCs, one on one little realising how unpopular he was and any battle would never have been on on one and as the DM told me later his plans were not the best and clearly had flaws like casting spells at a Paladin with a holy avenger.
The second was always trying to figure out and was quite happy to think he could kill all the other characters on a one on one battle. Sitting beside them rather than having my character sheet sat in the open in front of me it sat in my pad, yes some of used hand written sheets once upon a time. This was the reason I kept my sheet hidden from other players, to hide my ace in the hole or my pretend ace in the hole. I have never seen someone enjoy such a minute of happiness after being charmed and told to attack the party, one on one fight didn't last long only one round.
So basically my point is sometimes there are reasons, though everybody's sheets being available on-line in a folder makes this all so much trickier.
The other thing is knowing another player's abilities is sometimes handy. "Hey dude did you forget don't you get advantage on charm saves?"
Not every one has encyclopaedic knowledge of their characters abilities or the game.
Frankly, that opinion bewilders me. Are you asserting that a player can’t role play a character who doesn’t know something the player does? That’s what you seem to be saying. But, I role play such PCs all the time. I just compartmentalize such information in my head and don’t let the part that is managing the role play have access to it.
Why weren’t these players disinvited? DnD is not a competition.
One moved away
The other was asked to go because of constant cheating, even after a couple of warnings.
They've obviously never actually had someone break into their house, or car, or high school locker. For the record, I'm not wishing that one anyone; it's horrible. But, geez, maybe get a little perspective. Google probably knows more about them irl than you do about their fictional avatars. I'm mind-boggled by the attitude. How could it even be cheating? You are all on the same team. Is it unfair to the monsters?
It's a game. A game. Make-believe. A kind of toy (the best toy ever, but a toy nonetheless). And one where, again, everyone is on the same team. It's not like its reading someone's diary, or insider trading, or copying the answers to the big math test. I don't even know how to begin to advise you.
Yes, it can be handy. Helping other players out when they forget that they have advantage on a save is nice. But it can also be an issue. "You have <insert spell>, why don't you go over there and cast it at X, Y, or Z", can be helpful or trying to tell another player how to play their character. "Why don't you use Action Surge" might also be helpful, but at what point does helpful turn into bossing around another player. That depends on the table and the players. No two tables will be exactly the same.
I'm playing a Druid currently and another player, who has more 5E experience than I do, has played a druid in the past so she knows what spells I could have prepared. I don't use Conjure Animals as I know it can be a problem slowing down combat, they can go on long enough with 6 of us at the table. I did use it in earlier levels, but I consulted with my DM and chose to use two Dire Wolves when I did use that spell, for ease of use and not bogging down combat with 8 velociraptors or something similar. This was before the other player joined the group. I haven't had it prepared or cast since she has joined. And not once did she say, "why don't you use Conjure Animals? It's really a great spell" And it's not because she can't see my character sheet (we use Roll20 and Beyond20 extension to play) but because she is a good player and not trying to tell me how to play mine. And I don't try to tell her how to play hers. We do, however, help each other out if there are rules, or ability questions, etc... Not all groups are like that. There are plenty of "RPG horror stories" out there that proves that point.
So it all comes down to each individual table and player to determine what is appropriate, and there may be differing opinions at the table. But that doesn't necessarily mean the group, or a player, isn't compatible and can't have fun all the same.
It's just about respecting the other players at the table and their opinions, even if you don't agree.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That’s part of it. The other part is to be willing to accept that, sometimes, friends will cross a line and not even know they are doing it. In this case, this thread has shown that not everyone thinks char sheets are private property and, therefore, someone might not even realize that some people do until it is too late to do anything about it.
I wouldn"t take offense at somebody looking at my character sheet. I would be offended if they took that information and told me what to do during a game. I would not consider it cheating at all.
Sometimes I take a peek at other PC sheets but mostly to see if the party has its bases covered and to avoid duplicating somebody"s schtick. If two people already have Cure Wounds or some such, I know I don"t have to take it. Or if somebody has a magic axe, I"ll make sure my weapon is something different.
It is unfortunate that the OP is having this experience, and I really don"t know how they can fix it. They already apologized for doing it and said it won"t happen again. I think I don"t understand the other folks" view point on the cheating issue.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Are you saying they should need to?
Some of the worst words I keep hearing and seeing are "I just _____" or "All you need to do is _____" as advice. Nobody is the same. That's invariably the beginning of the worst advice people can give to someone else.
Never assume everyone should play as you do. Let people immerse how they wish to immerse. Be bewildered all you want, but it helps to think of it that other people are not you.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I don’t understand how you even made the leap from my saying that it is possible to roleplay a character who doesn’t know something the player does to saying that a player should have to roleplay a character who doesn’t know something the player does. Could you explain that leap to me?