Nah, sorry, that kind of logic doesn't make too much sense either...
It's (currently) apparently against forum rules for me to link you directly to literature about racism, but I highly suggest you read The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad if you want keener insight into widespread racism in modern fantasy.
Thanks for the books suggestion! I highly doubt i will get around to reading it since my current "to read" list is huge, but I appreciate the suggestion.
If you look at an entirely made-up race and immediately think real life certain race of people, I got some news for you... you might be the racist here.
Unless said race is a caricature of real life racial sterotypes, and done with artwork based on classic racial sterotypes.
So what do racists call people from Africa? What have Racists used for the justification of slavery? Who do Racists credit for freeing the slave, and the motivation of those people? Go down the list of USA history of racism and sterotypes, and look at the modern reboot of the Hadozee. Before they were a bit insensitive, but more or less fine, the reboot just jumped both feet in on the worst racial sterotypes from the last 200 years.
What if we made a race, pure fantasy mind you no barring on reality. Of big eared greedy capitalists slavers gave them whips as a main weapon, made them really dumb, and annoying, with bad teeth and short goblin like looks. No one would complain? Oh wait... Star Trek TNG did just that, and people were not amused.
Your whole post is, in and of itself, an indication of you having completely missed the point of D&D. Additionally, do you hear yourself? The fact that you're attributing a certain stereotype to a certain race of people, despite them not having a monopoly of said stereotype, is a stereotype in and of itself. My argument stands, case and point. But please, don't stop on my account, continue digging the hole deeper.
It's entirely possible that people are seeing racism through the parallels because of a perseverance and willingness to do so.
I think not only is this possible, but it's exactly what is happening.
In general, the kind of people who do not realize the ubiquitousness of racism are those for whom their race has never really been a source of systemic hurt. It is a privilege that causes a blind spot. Many of us do not have that privilege.
Nah, sorry, that kind of logic doesn't make too much sense either...
Grammatically, both MrPC0X and AllenEdg are correct - folks are seeing the inherent racism of the Hadozee because they are willing to open their eyes and see something that does, in fact, exist. The problem with institutionalised racism - the kind of racism which allows something so directly parallel to real world hate to pass design - is that folks are not willing to see it. Engaging in basic empathy, we can see that there are problems all around us, such as a game company, founded by a racist, having a staff that lacks representation or training necessary to question a pretty darn obvious historical parallel to hate.
So, thank goodness folks were “seeing racism” and have a “willingness to do so”—far too much racism hides in the shadows of our systems and institutions, and only by being willing to engage in critical introspection are we able to stamp out the vestiges remaining in society.
Now, I know that is not what they were saying - they were trying to say that folks were looking for racism where it does not exist. That, however, betrays a lack of empathy and knowledge of how systems are created at best, and something far more sinister at worst—I make no comment on what side of the spectrum these folks fall upon.
It's entirely possible that people are seeing racism through the parallels because of a perseverance and willingness to do so.
I think not only is this possible, but it's exactly what is happening.
In general, the kind of people who do not realize the ubiquitousness of racism are those for whom their race has never really been a source of systemic hurt. It is a privilege that causes a blind spot. Many of us do not have that privilege.
Nah, sorry, that kind of logic doesn't make too much sense either...
Grammatically, both MrPC0X and AllenEdg are correct - folks are seeing the inherent racism of the Hadozee because they are willing to open their eyes and see something to at does, in fact, exist. The problem with institutionalised racism - the kind of racism which allows something so directly parallel to real world hate to pass design - is that folks are not willing to see it. Engaging in basic empathy, we can see that there are problems all around us, such as a game company, founded by a racist, having a staff that lacks representation or training necessary to question a pretty darn obvious historical parallel to hate.
So, thank goodness folks were “seeing racism” and have a “willingness to do so”—far too much racism hides in the shadows of our systems and institutions, and only by being willing to engage in critical introspection are we able to stamp out the vestiges remaining in society.
Now, I know that is not what they were saying - they were trying to say that folks were looking for racism where it does not exist. That, however, betrays a lack of empathy and knowledge of how systems are created at best, and something far more sinister at worst—I make no comment on what side of the spectrum these folks fall upon.
I think you're making a LOT of assumptions here...and therein lies the problem with all of this...you're assuming i am unwilling to see racism, you're assuming i lack empathy, you're assuming i lack knowledge, you're assuming i may be "something far more sinister"... of course all of your assumptions are incorrect.
Your whole post is, in and of itself, an indication of you having completely missed the point of D&D. Additionally, do you hear yourself? The fact that you're attributing a certain stereotype to a certain race of people, despite them not having a monopoly of said stereotype, is a stereotype in and of itself. My argument stands, case and point. But please, don't stop on my account, continue digging the hole deeper.
How long have you been playing D&D? Me I first started playing in 1985, and got really heavy into it around 1997. D&D is about fantasy, and has always included pop cultural references in every game.
I played the Dinosaur module, because Dinosaurs were popular in the 90s. I had a Valley Elf, because of Corse I did, and D&D had them. The thing is, there was always some minor unhealthy racial sterotypes included into a lot of the fantasy races, and most players at our tables would filter those out to enjoy the game. But there was always that one fat white guy who would drone on about rules as written, and how Drow were not Black people as we know them but black skinned Europeans.... yadda yadda. Honestly you remind me of "That Guy". You think only you know the true meaning of D&D and only you understand what it means. You think if you include racism, sexism, and bigotry in a fantasy setting it's not real so it doesn't matter. Well it does, if you want to add it back into a game you run, go for it. Don't include us into your white supremacy dreams.
If you look at an entirely made-up race and immediately think real life certain race of people, I got some news for you... you might be the racist here.
Unless said race is a caricature of real life racial sterotypes, and done with artwork based on classic racial sterotypes.
Agreed, but we can't have a real conversation about that without violating forum rules, as we will be mega-punished if we e.g. link to art we claim is problematic.
So what do racists call people from Africa?
Nothing. As a general rule, racists do not consider Elon Musk and Nelson Mandela to be of the same race, and that's sticking within the same African country - they also don't consider Hosni Mubarak to be the same race as Musk or Mandela. Definitionally, racism is not about your continent of origin.
There is a jargon term from the southern United States used to refer to black people (which is based, like it sounds, on skin color) that is what I think you mean, but I can't say it here for fear of the mods. Suffice to say it reasonably parallels a significant portion of the 5E Hadozee art. However, I have no reason to believe this term is used in non-American cultures. Also, this same argument applies to e.g. Ardlings, as well as any other attempt at a race that looks any more simian than a standard human does.
What have Racists used for the justification of slavery?
Many things, including the Curse of Canaan and Aristotlian logic. I honestly don't know which of these myriad things you're referencing here, but the Hadozee do not have any racial penalties to their mental ability scores, which otherwise would have been my first guess.
Who do Racists credit for freeing the slave,
Assuming from context clues you mean in the USA, then Abraham Lincoln.
and the motivation of those people?
You mean the states rights argument? What does that have to do with Hadozee?
Go down the list of USA history of racism and sterotypes, and look at the modern reboot of the Hadozee.
I see almost no parallels.
Before they were a bit insensitive, but more or less fine, the reboot just jumped both feet in on the worst racial sterotypes from the last 200 years.
I don't see it, but you can't give me any examples without pissing off the mods, so I dare not ask you to explain on here.
What if we made a race, pure fantasy mind you no barring on reality. Of big eared greedy capitalists slavers gave them whips as a main weapon, made them really dumb, and annoying, with bad teeth and short goblin like looks. No one would complain? Oh wait... Star Trek TNG did just that, and people were not amused.
Ah, I see you're familiar with almost all depictions of goblins in modern fantasy. And yes, they're deeply racist.
It's entirely possible that people are seeing racism through the parallels because of a perseverance and willingness to do so.
I think not only is this possible, but it's exactly what is happening.
In general, the kind of people who do not realize the ubiquitousness of racism are those for whom their race has never really been a source of systemic hurt. It is a privilege that causes a blind spot. Many of us do not have that privilege.
Nah, sorry, that kind of logic doesn't make too much sense either...
Grammatically, both MrPC0X and AllenEdg are correct - folks are seeing the inherent racism of the Hadozee because they are willing to open their eyes and see something to at does, in fact, exist. The problem with institutionalised racism - the kind of racism which allows something so directly parallel to real world hate to pass design - is that folks are not willing to see it. Engaging in basic empathy, we can see that there are problems all around us, such as a game company, founded by a racist, having a staff that lacks representation or training necessary to question a pretty darn obvious historical parallel to hate.
So, thank goodness folks were “seeing racism” and have a “willingness to do so”—far too much racism hides in the shadows of our systems and institutions, and only by being willing to engage in critical introspection are we able to stamp out the vestiges remaining in society.
Now, I know that is not what they were saying - they were trying to say that folks were looking for racism where it does not exist. That, however, betrays a lack of empathy and knowledge of how systems are created at best, and something far more sinister at worst—I make no comment on what side of the spectrum these folks fall upon.
I think you're making a LOT of assumptions here...and therein lies the problem with all of this...you're assuming i am unwilling to see racism, you're assuming i lack empathy, you're assuming i lack knowledge, you're assuming i may be "something far more sinister"... of course all of your assumptions are incorrect.
Assumptions based on data are not assumptions--they are conclusions. The only data you have provided is a vehement defense of two paragraphs of lore which recreate word-for-word the exact language used to justify one of the darkest stains upon history. If you do not want that to be the conclusion folks draw from your posting, the burden is on you to present yourself in a manner consistent with how you want to be perceived.
I know it is much easier to just double down and write off logical conclusions as "assumptions" rather than admit you might be on the wrong side of this conversation or that you might be communicating poorly. It is always easier to blame another person or group for our own failings rather than admit that we ourselves could be incorrect. That is one of the reasons racism forms in the first place--a desire to refuse to accept changing demographics, changes in norms, or just that others might approach the world in a manner that is just as valid as our own inherent worldview.
The reason this really came to light is because Wizards chose not to double down--they could have, they could have entered a post that said "we did not mean this to be offensive, and our design team believes that our lore is perfectly fine." Other groups have done that in the past--including Wizards of the Coast itself. But they chose to take the road of empathy--they chose to accept that their institutions inadvertently created racism, that their work hurt real world people, and they sympathized and took steps to correct their mistake.
So, when one sees someone saying "your empathetic approach is wrong, and you should have just willfully continued to publish something that hurts others, even when you know that you are hurting them" the only real conclusion from the evidence presented is that the individual advocating for a company to hurt a section of their customers must be, at best, lacking in empathy. Again, that is a conclusion from data, not an assumption--and if that conclusion is incorrect, the burden lies on the one trying to communicate to rectify the poor perception they projected.
It's entirely possible that people are seeing racism through the parallels because of a perseverance and willingness to do so.
I think not only is this possible, but it's exactly what is happening.
In general, the kind of people who do not realize the ubiquitousness of racism are those for whom their race has never really been a source of systemic hurt. It is a privilege that causes a blind spot. Many of us do not have that privilege.
Nah, sorry, that kind of logic doesn't make too much sense either...
I mean, I wasn't trying to logically prove anything to you, I was speaking from first hand experience.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If you look at an entirely made-up race and immediately think real life certain race of people, I got some news for you... you might be the racist here.
Recognizing how harmful a racist stereotype about certain peoples and how that stereotype is inaccurate is not racist. Noticing that stereotype being used offensively isn't either.
What is racist is saying that the stereotype is alright, factual, or ok, when it clearly really isn't.
No one looks at an "entirely made-up race" and thinks of real life people. They think of the types of hurtful and inaccurate things about real people and how offensive they are, resemble this. There is a difference between noticing a racist stereotype in a book and realizing how it relates to a real-life hurtful racist stereotype versus thinking of a made-up race with that stereotype and associating it with how X real life race actually is.
Acknowledging how something is based on hurtful stereotypes, as WotC has done and then edited the Hadozee lore because of it, is not racist. Thinking that those racist stereotypes are true and really do apply to how people are versus how other people have unfairly treated them based-off untrue stereotypes is..
Unfortunately due to the actions of bad actors, this thread has reached a point where it's no longer conducive to civil discussion and will now be locked.
For those reaching the thread, I shall summarise:
Content in Spelljammer: Adventurer's in Space was highlighted by the community as being problematic, specifically racist
D&D Beyond, a part of the Wizards of the Coast family, has updated all digital content to reflect this
D&D is for everyone and everyone should feel safe and included
The moderation team will be actively monitoring all other threads discussing this matter, as well as those users who have demonstrated a disregard for site rules and guidelines.
Thanks for the books suggestion! I highly doubt i will get around to reading it since my current "to read" list is huge, but I appreciate the suggestion.
Your whole post is, in and of itself, an indication of you having completely missed the point of D&D. Additionally, do you hear yourself? The fact that you're attributing a certain stereotype to a certain race of people, despite them not having a monopoly of said stereotype, is a stereotype in and of itself. My argument stands, case and point. But please, don't stop on my account, continue digging the hole deeper.
Oh, the beautiful irony.
I think you're making a LOT of assumptions here...and therein lies the problem with all of this...you're assuming i am unwilling to see racism, you're assuming i lack empathy, you're assuming i lack knowledge, you're assuming i may be "something far more sinister"... of course all of your assumptions are incorrect.
How long have you been playing D&D? Me I first started playing in 1985, and got really heavy into it around 1997. D&D is about fantasy, and has always included pop cultural references in every game.
I played the Dinosaur module, because Dinosaurs were popular in the 90s. I had a Valley Elf, because of Corse I did, and D&D had them. The thing is, there was always some minor unhealthy racial sterotypes included into a lot of the fantasy races, and most players at our tables would filter those out to enjoy the game. But there was always that one fat white guy who would drone on about rules as written, and how Drow were not Black people as we know them but black skinned Europeans.... yadda yadda. Honestly you remind me of "That Guy". You think only you know the true meaning of D&D and only you understand what it means. You think if you include racism, sexism, and bigotry in a fantasy setting it's not real so it doesn't matter. Well it does, if you want to add it back into a game you run, go for it. Don't include us into your white supremacy dreams.
Agreed, but we can't have a real conversation about that without violating forum rules, as we will be mega-punished if we e.g. link to art we claim is problematic.
Nothing. As a general rule, racists do not consider Elon Musk and Nelson Mandela to be of the same race, and that's sticking within the same African country - they also don't consider Hosni Mubarak to be the same race as Musk or Mandela. Definitionally, racism is not about your continent of origin.
There is a jargon term from the southern United States used to refer to black people (which is based, like it sounds, on skin color) that is what I think you mean, but I can't say it here for fear of the mods. Suffice to say it reasonably parallels a significant portion of the 5E Hadozee art. However, I have no reason to believe this term is used in non-American cultures. Also, this same argument applies to e.g. Ardlings, as well as any other attempt at a race that looks any more simian than a standard human does.
Many things, including the Curse of Canaan and Aristotlian logic. I honestly don't know which of these myriad things you're referencing here, but the Hadozee do not have any racial penalties to their mental ability scores, which otherwise would have been my first guess.
Assuming from context clues you mean in the USA, then Abraham Lincoln.
You mean the states rights argument? What does that have to do with Hadozee?
I see almost no parallels.
I don't see it, but you can't give me any examples without pissing off the mods, so I dare not ask you to explain on here.
Ah, I see you're familiar with almost all depictions of goblins in modern fantasy. And yes, they're deeply racist.
Assumptions based on data are not assumptions--they are conclusions. The only data you have provided is a vehement defense of two paragraphs of lore which recreate word-for-word the exact language used to justify one of the darkest stains upon history. If you do not want that to be the conclusion folks draw from your posting, the burden is on you to present yourself in a manner consistent with how you want to be perceived.
I know it is much easier to just double down and write off logical conclusions as "assumptions" rather than admit you might be on the wrong side of this conversation or that you might be communicating poorly. It is always easier to blame another person or group for our own failings rather than admit that we ourselves could be incorrect. That is one of the reasons racism forms in the first place--a desire to refuse to accept changing demographics, changes in norms, or just that others might approach the world in a manner that is just as valid as our own inherent worldview.
The reason this really came to light is because Wizards chose not to double down--they could have, they could have entered a post that said "we did not mean this to be offensive, and our design team believes that our lore is perfectly fine." Other groups have done that in the past--including Wizards of the Coast itself. But they chose to take the road of empathy--they chose to accept that their institutions inadvertently created racism, that their work hurt real world people, and they sympathized and took steps to correct their mistake.
So, when one sees someone saying "your empathetic approach is wrong, and you should have just willfully continued to publish something that hurts others, even when you know that you are hurting them" the only real conclusion from the evidence presented is that the individual advocating for a company to hurt a section of their customers must be, at best, lacking in empathy. Again, that is a conclusion from data, not an assumption--and if that conclusion is incorrect, the burden lies on the one trying to communicate to rectify the poor perception they projected.
I mean, I wasn't trying to logically prove anything to you, I was speaking from first hand experience.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Recognizing how harmful a racist stereotype about certain peoples and how that stereotype is inaccurate is not racist. Noticing that stereotype being used offensively isn't either.
What is racist is saying that the stereotype is alright, factual, or ok, when it clearly really isn't.
No one looks at an "entirely made-up race" and thinks of real life people. They think of the types of hurtful and inaccurate things about real people and how offensive they are, resemble this. There is a difference between noticing a racist stereotype in a book and realizing how it relates to a real-life hurtful racist stereotype versus thinking of a made-up race with that stereotype and associating it with how X real life race actually is.
Acknowledging how something is based on hurtful stereotypes, as WotC has done and then edited the Hadozee lore because of it, is not racist. Thinking that those racist stereotypes are true and really do apply to how people are versus how other people have unfairly treated them based-off untrue stereotypes is..
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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HERE.Unfortunately due to the actions of bad actors, this thread has reached a point where it's no longer conducive to civil discussion and will now be locked.
For those reaching the thread, I shall summarise:
The moderation team will be actively monitoring all other threads discussing this matter, as well as those users who have demonstrated a disregard for site rules and guidelines.
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