Elves are undoubtedly the same species as human -- they produce stable crossbreeds.
Are you just trolling or what? Elves and Humans produce hybrids in spite of being fundamentally different creatures, not because of not being fundamentally different: & it's the human that allows for the hybridization - with elves and with almost everyone else too for some reason. The only creatures with a wider taste in lovers are Dragons.
Actually according to biology the definition of a species is just that. Now in D&D lore Elves were made by a different human looking god that the human looking god who made humans. But since Half-Elves are a thing, Elves would count to a biologist as Homo Saipan Eldari or something similar. Of coare Humans in Toril would probably get Homo Saipan Toril. Because they would not be from Earth, even if Toril looks like Earth after a five year old drew on the map.
--- Also we as players accept the story that AO created the reality, and the Gods made the worlds and the peoples on them, what if this isn't true. What if in a past iteration of the D&D universe the gods rebooted our universe into that universe, and all the races are actually Humans that were changed by the Gods, Devil, and Elementals. I mean the Ithilid self created that way officially, and the game devs admitted that this is actually common.
Yes. Which is why biology apparently does not apply within the context of the fantasy. If it did we wouldn't be seeing any hybridization at all between anyone.
Corellon isn't "human looking". or at least, he wasn't at the time. Corellon was a formless and everchanging entity and he enjoyed it so, and at first the elves were likewise. Even if Corellon was in a humanesque shape for his fight with Gruumsh, it does not necessarily follow he was biologically related to any god responsible for humans. Similarly, as far as I am aware, it is not actually settled lore whether or not D&D humans have any god particularly responsible for them at all. Humans might have one or more or might actually be a product of natural Eveolution in a way the other fantasy races are not. I remember a couple of takes on lore from the 3e 'races of destiny' book which have humans being the work of multiple gods either purposefully in one take or by accident in another which may explain why they can in fact breed with each of the other gods personal creations.
Elves are not even genus Homo, let alone Homo Eldari or Homo Sapien Eldari. You are trying to reverse engineer something logically in an instance where logic does not apply. Otherwise you would have to apply the same logic to all other creatures that humans are compatable with. As pantagruel is ...I'm going to say suggesting rather than joking, do you mean to say Corellon is also related to Asmodeus, and to Gruumsh himself whose similar ofspring are breedable with humans too, and also with Moradin and with whoever the god of stone giants is as Goliaths are also a half-humans creature, and to etc.
----
I don't really do "what-if's" I only do face-value.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Similarly, as far as I am aware, it is not actually settled lore whether or not D&D humans have any god particularly responsible for them at all.
The closest answer we've gotten to this in recent times is in the One D&D playtest UA of all things.
Scholars dispute the origin of humanity, but one of the earliest known human gatherings is said to have occurred in Sigil, the torus-shaped city at the center of the multiverse and the place where the Common tongue was born. From there, humans could have spread to every corner of the multiverse, bringing Sigil’s cosmopolitanism with them.
I'm not sure that each race represents a single species. Some of the races might actually be two or more species that are so similar that they only get one race entry. Dragonborn might even be a whole family of species.
The way that the word "race" is used Dnd is not only acceptable, I would argue it's being used in a positive way. Race can mean a category of recognizably similar living beings, ever heard the phrase "The Human Race"? If you can say "The Human Race", then what's so odd about saying "The Dwarf Race" or "The Lizardfolk Race"? I like the the way race is used here because it suggests that in this world humans are seen as one race, which to me is a positive thing. Or at the very least it's a harmless use of the word.
I skimmed the thread, hope I'm not wrong in saying no one has mentioned why D&D uses the word 'race' to refer to different species. Well, the second post was right in that this is the language Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson used when they created D&D. But where did they get this language? The same place that inspired D&D, Lord of the Rings.
It's the race of men, the race of elves, the race of dwarves.
And it is racist in assume all gnomes are good with tools. *backs out slowly* ;p
...vulcans and klingons do have value beyond a name for cultural differences, but rather genuinely biological differences - but ones that do not hail from common evolutionary ancestry.
I'm going to be that guy and say that Vulcans and Klingons do have common evolutionary ancestry ;)
It"S actually Vulcans and Romulans =)
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
...vulcans and klingons do have value beyond a name for cultural differences, but rather genuinely biological differences - but ones that do not hail from common evolutionary ancestry.
I'm going to be that guy and say that Vulcans and Klingons do have common evolutionary ancestry ;)
It"S actually Vulcans and Romulans =)
Actually, Vulcans and Klingons do as well. There was a TNG episode that revealed that all humanoid species in the Alpha Quadrant were the result of an ancient species seeding life on numerous worlds because they were unhappy that there was apparently no other sapient life besides themselves at the time.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
...vulcans and klingons do have value beyond a name for cultural differences, but rather genuinely biological differences - but ones that do not hail from common evolutionary ancestry.
I'm going to be that guy and say that Vulcans and Klingons do have common evolutionary ancestry ;)
It"S actually Vulcans and Romulans =)
Well, those too, and a more recent connection at that, but Vulcans and Klingons were brought up so I was referencing their common origin.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Dudes, Star Trek is an allegorical journey. So, the Vulcans are logical. The Romulans are romans. And the Klingons are commies. Retcon allz yaz like. ;p
Dudes, Star Trek is an allegorical journey. So, the Vulcans are logical. The Romulans are romans. And the Klingons are commies. Retcon allz yaz like. ;p
Not really, Tolkien was really popular, and Rodenberry was a Hollywood Liberal.
Vulcans were High Elves
Tellarites were Dwarves
Klingons were Feudalist Viking Orcs.
And Romulans were Dark Elf Imperialists, based heavily on a mix of Roman and Ancient Chinese culture.
The Federation (Humans, Tellarites, Andorians, and Vulcans) Were Space Communism set to maximum.
Ok, because I am a Big time Trek Lore nerd. I will post this only once on these forums, and I am going to not reply to this thread much more because it's so thoroughly derailed I think we got ourselves a "Great Train Wreck of 1918" situation in this thread.
Vulcans and Romulans are the same Species, and have only been separated from each other for 2266 years. As the Romulans migrated from Vulcan in the Earth Year 0.
Because the Vulcan Species lives for 200 years and this applies to both cultures. This means about 5 and a half generations between when Vulcans and Romulans separated. Or the amount of time since the declaration of independence July 1776 to January 2003. Yes if you convert those 2266 years into human life equivalent that would be 226.6 years.
They are very different cultures with very different religious beliefs, but they are the same species. One could argue that they came from the equivalent of different races on their homeworld (And this has been confirmed in Beta-Canon books, in the books Romulans came from regions closer to the Equator and Southern Hemisphere, and the Vulcans came from Northern Hemisphere people)
Anything that only showed up in the novels in Star Trek isn't canon. It's more like officially licensed fanfiction.
Yes & No depends on which books, and who wrote it. And it depends on who's currently producing Star Trek. It's why it's Alpha Canon, and Beta Canon. Producers will sometimes ignore Beta, and others will take the books as gospel. For Romulan Canon, Alpha canon was mostly written by D. C. Fontana and the book series "Rihannsu" which most of the TNG lore, the language, and the cultural lore was taken from. Even in Enterprise the small bit of Vulcan Lore about the war between the Ancestors of Romulans and Vulcans on Vulcan was lifted right from that series.
Yes. Which is why biology apparently does not apply within the context of the fantasy. If it did we wouldn't be seeing any hybridization at all between anyone.
Corellon isn't "human looking". or at least, he wasn't at the time. Corellon was a formless and everchanging entity and he enjoyed it so, and at first the elves were likewise. Even if Corellon was in a humanesque shape for his fight with Gruumsh, it does not necessarily follow he was biologically related to any god responsible for humans. Similarly, as far as I am aware, it is not actually settled lore whether or not D&D humans have any god particularly responsible for them at all. Humans might have one or more or might actually be a product of natural Eveolution in a way the other fantasy races are not. I remember a couple of takes on lore from the 3e 'races of destiny' book which have humans being the work of multiple gods either purposefully in one take or by accident in another which may explain why they can in fact breed with each of the other gods personal creations.
Elves are not even genus Homo, let alone Homo Eldari or Homo Sapien Eldari. You are trying to reverse engineer something logically in an instance where logic does not apply. Otherwise you would have to apply the same logic to all other creatures that humans are compatable with. As pantagruel is ...I'm going to say suggesting rather than joking, do you mean to say Corellon is also related to Asmodeus, and to Gruumsh himself whose similar ofspring are breedable with humans too, and also with Moradin and with whoever the god of stone giants is as Goliaths are also a half-humans creature, and to etc.
----
I don't really do "what-if's" I only do face-value.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
The closest answer we've gotten to this in recent times is in the One D&D playtest UA of all things.
I'm not sure that each race represents a single species. Some of the races might actually be two or more species that are so similar that they only get one race entry. Dragonborn might even be a whole family of species.
The way that the word "race" is used Dnd is not only acceptable, I would argue it's being used in a positive way. Race can mean a category of recognizably similar living beings, ever heard the phrase "The Human Race"? If you can say "The Human Race", then what's so odd about saying "The Dwarf Race" or "The Lizardfolk Race"? I like the the way race is used here because it suggests that in this world humans are seen as one race, which to me is a positive thing. Or at the very least it's a harmless use of the word.
I skimmed the thread, hope I'm not wrong in saying no one has mentioned why D&D uses the word 'race' to refer to different species. Well, the second post was right in that this is the language Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson used when they created D&D. But where did they get this language? The same place that inspired D&D, Lord of the Rings.
It's the race of men, the race of elves, the race of dwarves.
And it is racist in assume all gnomes are good with tools. *backs out slowly* ;p
It"S actually Vulcans and Romulans =)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Actually, Vulcans and Klingons do as well. There was a TNG episode that revealed that all humanoid species in the Alpha Quadrant were the result of an ancient species seeding life on numerous worlds because they were unhappy that there was apparently no other sapient life besides themselves at the time.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Well, those too, and a more recent connection at that, but Vulcans and Klingons were brought up so I was referencing their common origin.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Dudes, Star Trek is an allegorical journey. So, the Vulcans are logical. The Romulans are romans. And the Klingons are commies. Retcon allz yaz like. ;p
Sorry, what? The Federation are communist. Klingons are your standard honor-bound warrior culture that doesn't really exist because it makes no sense.
Certainly I agree that could be the case, sorta. :)
There is a thread over in the off-topic section for discussing Star Trek - seven (I suppose now nine, including this and the below) posts on Star Trek culture when this thread is about etymological choices in D&D seems... excessive.
Oh god, let's not get into the Trek commie worm hole!
Not really, Tolkien was really popular, and Rodenberry was a Hollywood Liberal.
Vulcans were High Elves
Tellarites were Dwarves
Klingons were Feudalist Viking Orcs.
And Romulans were Dark Elf Imperialists, based heavily on a mix of Roman and Ancient Chinese culture.
The Federation (Humans, Tellarites, Andorians, and Vulcans) Were Space Communism set to maximum.
I like to call it the Tolkien model. It seems to have held up for some strange reason.
You have your hoomans, your elves, your dwarves, and your orcs. And the rest tends to follow after that.
It's also one of the reasons why I don't mind at all that full-blooded orcs are becoming a playable race in the new Player's Handbook.
Ok, because I am a Big time Trek Lore nerd. I will post this only once on these forums, and I am going to not reply to this thread much more because it's so thoroughly derailed I think we got ourselves a "Great Train Wreck of 1918" situation in this thread.
Vulcans and Romulans are the same Species, and have only been separated from each other for 2266 years. As the Romulans migrated from Vulcan in the Earth Year 0.
Because the Vulcan Species lives for 200 years and this applies to both cultures. This means about 5 and a half generations between when Vulcans and Romulans separated. Or the amount of time since the declaration of independence July 1776 to January 2003. Yes if you convert those 2266 years into human life equivalent that would be 226.6 years.
They are very different cultures with very different religious beliefs, but they are the same species. One could argue that they came from the equivalent of different races on their homeworld (And this has been confirmed in Beta-Canon books, in the books Romulans came from regions closer to the Equator and Southern Hemisphere, and the Vulcans came from Northern Hemisphere people)
Anything that only showed up in the novels in Star Trek isn't canon. It's more like officially licensed fanfiction.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes & No depends on which books, and who wrote it. And it depends on who's currently producing Star Trek. It's why it's Alpha Canon, and Beta Canon. Producers will sometimes ignore Beta, and others will take the books as gospel. For Romulan Canon, Alpha canon was mostly written by D. C. Fontana and the book series "Rihannsu" which most of the TNG lore, the language, and the cultural lore was taken from. Even in Enterprise the small bit of Vulcan Lore about the war between the Ancestors of Romulans and Vulcans on Vulcan was lifted right from that series.
JJ Abrams however ignored it completely.