I was making an orc the other day, looking forward to using my original volo's stats (I like negatives). Unfortunately to my surprise, the site had stealth changed them. They now had no negatives and some of the passives were changed too. I was personally very upset and put a complaint on the errata thread and for my trouble I was sent a warning for inappropriate comments. (I appealed and was cleared but still)
I sent a message asking if there was a way for the original version could be re implemented but no reply has come. Now the change itself doesn't really bother me. I can manually change my stats to what the volo's version should be. (abilities and skills are harder but doable)
however what does bother me is the precedent of this. I bought a book. I want to use that book. I don't like that DND beyond or Wizards or whoever can decide it doesn't like what's in my book and change it without any warning. I bought digital for the convenience but if this is what I can look forward to I won't by another digital book again, and I would advise you not to either.
The removal of negative stats was done a long time ago. I'm not sure when, but before I started even playing the game.
DDB reserves the right to make those changes. I'm sorry that you feel wronged, but it's important that you understand that virtually all digital products provided as a service are not your property. You buy a licence to access it, but they can change or even withdraw the product at any time. If that worries you (and it should, at least a little), then you should reconsider using those services.
Here's a quote from the T&C's, and you should have been shown something similar when you bought Volo's:
"License. Subject to your compliance with these Terms, Wizards provides you a limited, personal, non-exclusive, nontransferable, non-assignable, fully revocable license to use the Websites and Services solely for your individual and non-commercial use. Wizards may terminate or suspend any or all portions or features of the Websites, Games, or Services at any time and for any reason or for no reason with no liability to you. This license does not give you any ownership rights in the Websites, Games, or Services.
...
We, in our sole discretion, have the absolute right to manage, modify, substitute, replace, suspend, delete, or cancel, Virtual Currency and Virtual Items without any notice or liability to you, including deletion upon termination of your Account."
It's really important to read the T's&C's. It should also be noted that the updates are considered by some to be a positive aspect to the service.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The penalty to intelligence was removed from orcs when Eberron: Rising from the Last War was released. Volo orcs were updated to match the stats of Eberron orcs.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Unfortunately to my surprise, the site had stealth changed them.
99% of the time, this is not the case. The case is often that someone has an expectation of a service and/or product with that expectation based on incomplete information - information usually found within the fine print. Then, when things don't line up, it feels like a sudden change of which you weren't privy to or warned about. Again, it's seldom the case. As with many things, expect less and be clear about what you invest resources into - especially time and money. It alleviates a great deal of frustration to be clear about such things, but it's not immunity. Shitty business, poor customer service, and unfortunate things happen and sometimes you're just SOL and out of money and time. This is life.
Just play your orc with a flaw even if the mechanics don't point to it.
Honestly, negative stat penalties are aptly named: they were a negative mechanic that I am happy to see gone from the game. What if I loved both Orcs and Wizards? I shouldn't have to mechanically suffer by taking a -2 penalty to what is supposed to be my top stat, just so I can play what I enjoy.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
Honestly, negative stat penalties are aptly named: they were a negative mechanic that I am happy to see gone from the game. What if I loved both Orcs and Wizards? I shouldn't have to mechanically suffer by taking a -2 penalty to what is supposed to be my top stat, just so I can play what I enjoy.
Especially when no other race in the game did so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I was making an orc the other day, looking forward to using my original volo's stats (I like negatives). Unfortunately to my surprise, the site had stealth changed them. They now had no negatives and some of the passives were changed too. I was personally very upset and put a complaint on the errata thread and for my trouble I was sent a warning for inappropriate comments. (I appealed and was cleared but still)
I sent a message asking if there was a way for the original version could be re implemented but no reply has come. Now the change itself doesn't really bother me. I can manually change my stats to what the volo's version should be. (abilities and skills are harder but doable)
however what does bother me is the precedent of this. I bought a book. I want to use that book. I don't like that DND beyond or Wizards or whoever can decide it doesn't like what's in my book and change it without any warning. I bought digital for the convenience but if this is what I can look forward to I won't by another digital book again, and I would advise you not to either.
These changes happened over two years ago. There was much passionate argument over it, though those exchanges didn't change WotC and DDB's outlook. Negative stats were pulled from all races, and a DDB edition, per the cited T&C, will reflect what WotC considers the "current" version of the text. Since MMM came into DDB's marketplace DDB has delisted Volo's, so the only reason you have any access to the Volo's Kobold in its last form is DDB has instituted its "legacy" policy.
You can probably still find Volo's in print reflecting the "old" text. There was another editorial pass over the book that pulled a lot of lore out, and I don't know if that ever made it into physical print either. Prior print runs of the physical books were never pulled and pulped and I don't know if WotC ever printed a run with the revised ability score modifiers. Regardless, if you're really set on having "old school" monster races, it'd probably be a much more efficient use of your time using the homebrew tools to make what you want than it is petitioning a years old editorial decision that many folks protested (I'm not saying I agree with that protest, but there was a lot of noise). I'm not saying you're not entitiled to your opinion, but if you want what you say want, it's very doable without protesting a policy direction you missed two years ago.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Wait until you see how much lore has been quietly removed from the digital books as well. Even the newest sourcebook had lore vanish from it within weeks of being released.
To the rest of the comments which seem to basically be "that's what you paid for" I was unaware of this when I purchased. I thought I was simply purchasing a method to view a product that would not change. I am posting this to relay my experience and warn others to not make my mistake.
I find this method underhanded at worst, inconvenient at best. You are entitled to your opinions of whether or not you agree with that change. However that irrelevant to me and my opinions. I enjoyed the negatives. I felt it made the races (or now species) feel more diverse and I like races/species having strengths and weaknesses. Again, I paid for a product and then it was changed without my knowledge I was (and still am) upset. I would happily simply take a refund and be done with such a site altogether but I know that is not going to happen. So I must content myself with the consequences of my foolish choice that has cost me hundreds of dollars on various books that they can change whenever they feel it suits them. Do they have the right legally? Obviously. Should they? I feel they shouldn't. The loss of lore and mechanics is a travesty.
ah thank you for the link. however there is not notification to users. so to me that does make it a "Stealth Errata" and something that could be very easily be worked around simply by having a link to the errata with the previous version in full listed. in your link it simply says " The adjustment to Intelligence has been removed." it doesn't say how much. simply having easy access to the old information so I could properly adjust would save a lot of frustration. And an automated message to everyone who owns that would at least make it feel like less of a slap in the face. I'm not a person who spends every moment on dnd sites. I run a game once a week, and I kept an eye out for adventures or source books that interested me.
Now I will not be purchasing anything in the future and intend to let my sub run out.
ah thank you for the link. however there is not notification to users. so to me that does make it a "Stealth Errata" and something that could be very easily be worked around simply by having a link to the errata with the previous version in full listed. in your link it simply says " The adjustment to Intelligence has been removed." it doesn't say how much. simply having easy access to the old information so I could properly adjust would save a lot of frustration. And an automated message to everyone who owns that would at least make it feel like less of a slap in the face. I'm not a person who spends every moment on dnd sites. I run a game once a week, and I kept an eye out for adventures or source books that interested me.
Now I will not be purchasing anything in the future and intend to let my sub run out.
I mean... there was a notification sent out to all users. in the form of the errata announcement made by WotC and the errata thread. You missing it doesn't make it a stealth errata...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
So when you came by last month with your grievance, I ended my comment thus:
Regardless, if you're really set on having "old school" monster races, it'd probably be a much more efficient use of your time using the homebrew tools to make what you want than it is petitioning a years old editorial decision that many folks protested (I'm not saying I agree with that protest, but there was a lot of noise). I'm not saying you're not entitiled to your opinion, but if you want what you say want, it's very doable without protesting a policy direction you missed two years ago.
The prior negatives are not hard to track down via open source research methods (like this CBR article found in under a minute over google) and are easily implemented via the homebrew tools. If you want to complain, that's your right, but the time and effort to simply use the tools to get the character option you want could be done in less time than the span between your complaints and rebuttals to your respondents, less energy too. But if you want to double down on the issue, you can research this board and see all the other complaints and consumers rights protests and maybe save yourself some keystrokes since I don't think anything you'll be typing will build further on what's already been said. You're already repeating yourself. You can make what you want or you can basically publicly sulk.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
incorrect. Kobolds also had negatives. and back in the day my favorite race, dwarf, had negatives to charisma. I happily played it that way too.
Two races out of a single book doesn't make a trend. It just means that there were two races instead of one that stood out for having a penalty that was not applied to any of the other available PC races with no justification for why those two were singled out. If you like playing old editions of the game, absolutely no one is going to stop you or even care, feel free to do so. But don't complain that the current edition's rules don't match the rules for an edition that hasn't been supported for over a decade (or two, depending on the edition).
To the rest of the comments which seem to basically be "that's what you paid for" I was unaware of this when I purchased. I thought I was simply purchasing a method to view a product that would not change. I am posting this to relay my experience and warn others to not make my mistake.
You're warning people to read license agreements for online services?
I mean, that's noble and all, but hardly unique to D&D.
" I'm sorry that you feel wronged, but it's important that you understand that virtually all digital products provided as a service are not your property. "
Yes. and PsyrenXY is right, it's not unique to DNDBeyond. All digital purchases are services, not a "thing" you own. It's the Internet economies dirty secret and, as PsyrenXY again pointed out, no one reads them (Terms of Agreement). Why would you, they can change that too.
I was making an orc the other day, looking forward to using my original volo's stats (I like negatives). Unfortunately to my surprise, the site had stealth changed them. They now had no negatives and some of the passives were changed too. I was personally very upset and put a complaint on the errata thread and for my trouble I was sent a warning for inappropriate comments. (I appealed and was cleared but still)
I sent a message asking if there was a way for the original version could be re implemented but no reply has come.
Now the change itself doesn't really bother me. I can manually change my stats to what the volo's version should be. (abilities and skills are harder but doable)
however what does bother me is the precedent of this. I bought a book. I want to use that book. I don't like that DND beyond or Wizards or whoever can decide it doesn't like what's in my book and change it without any warning. I bought digital for the convenience but if this is what I can look forward to I won't by another digital book again, and I would advise you not to either.
The removal of negative stats was done a long time ago. I'm not sure when, but before I started even playing the game.
DDB reserves the right to make those changes. I'm sorry that you feel wronged, but it's important that you understand that virtually all digital products provided as a service are not your property. You buy a licence to access it, but they can change or even withdraw the product at any time. If that worries you (and it should, at least a little), then you should reconsider using those services.
Here's a quote from the T&C's, and you should have been shown something similar when you bought Volo's:
"License. Subject to your compliance with these Terms, Wizards provides you a limited, personal, non-exclusive, nontransferable, non-assignable, fully revocable license to use the Websites and Services solely for your individual and non-commercial use. Wizards may terminate or suspend any or all portions or features of the Websites, Games, or Services at any time and for any reason or for no reason with no liability to you. This license does not give you any ownership rights in the Websites, Games, or Services.
...
We, in our sole discretion, have the absolute right to manage, modify, substitute, replace, suspend, delete, or cancel, Virtual Currency and Virtual Items without any notice or liability to you, including deletion upon termination of your Account."
It's really important to read the T's&C's. It should also be noted that the updates are considered by some to be a positive aspect to the service.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The penalty to intelligence was removed from orcs when Eberron: Rising from the Last War was released. Volo orcs were updated to match the stats of Eberron orcs.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
99% of the time, this is not the case. The case is often that someone has an expectation of a service and/or product with that expectation based on incomplete information - information usually found within the fine print. Then, when things don't line up, it feels like a sudden change of which you weren't privy to or warned about. Again, it's seldom the case. As with many things, expect less and be clear about what you invest resources into - especially time and money. It alleviates a great deal of frustration to be clear about such things, but it's not immunity. Shitty business, poor customer service, and unfortunate things happen and sometimes you're just SOL and out of money and time. This is life.
Just play your orc with a flaw even if the mechanics don't point to it.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
Honestly, negative stat penalties are aptly named: they were a negative mechanic that I am happy to see gone from the game. What if I loved both Orcs and Wizards? I shouldn't have to mechanically suffer by taking a -2 penalty to what is supposed to be my top stat, just so I can play what I enjoy.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Especially when no other race in the game did so.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
These changes happened over two years ago. There was much passionate argument over it, though those exchanges didn't change WotC and DDB's outlook. Negative stats were pulled from all races, and a DDB edition, per the cited T&C, will reflect what WotC considers the "current" version of the text. Since MMM came into DDB's marketplace DDB has delisted Volo's, so the only reason you have any access to the Volo's Kobold in its last form is DDB has instituted its "legacy" policy.
You can probably still find Volo's in print reflecting the "old" text. There was another editorial pass over the book that pulled a lot of lore out, and I don't know if that ever made it into physical print either. Prior print runs of the physical books were never pulled and pulped and I don't know if WotC ever printed a run with the revised ability score modifiers. Regardless, if you're really set on having "old school" monster races, it'd probably be a much more efficient use of your time using the homebrew tools to make what you want than it is petitioning a years old editorial decision that many folks protested (I'm not saying I agree with that protest, but there was a lot of noise). I'm not saying you're not entitiled to your opinion, but if you want what you say want, it's very doable without protesting a policy direction you missed two years ago.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Wait until you see how much lore has been quietly removed from the digital books as well. Even the newest sourcebook had lore vanish from it within weeks of being released.
But that lore was super racist and should never have made it to print in the first place.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The way DDB is licensed required it to always provide the fully errata'd version of any book, and the TOS permit them to do so.
Yeah, this is literally what you signed up for when you made the purchase.
incorrect. Kobolds also had negatives. and back in the day my favorite race, dwarf, had negatives to charisma. I happily played it that way too.
To the rest of the comments which seem to basically be "that's what you paid for" I was unaware of this when I purchased. I thought I was simply purchasing a method to view a product that would not change. I am posting this to relay my experience and warn others to not make my mistake.
I find this method underhanded at worst, inconvenient at best. You are entitled to your opinions of whether or not you agree with that change. However that irrelevant to me and my opinions. I enjoyed the negatives. I felt it made the races (or now species) feel more diverse and I like races/species having strengths and weaknesses. Again, I paid for a product and then it was changed without my knowledge I was (and still am) upset. I would happily simply take a refund and be done with such a site altogether but I know that is not going to happen. So I must content myself with the consequences of my foolish choice that has cost me hundreds of dollars on various books that they can change whenever they feel it suits them. Do they have the right legally? Obviously. Should they? I feel they shouldn't. The loss of lore and mechanics is a travesty.
This wasn't a "stealth errata", it was announced per all standard errata releases. You can find the PDF (which released in 2020) here
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
ah thank you for the link. however there is not notification to users. so to me that does make it a "Stealth Errata" and something that could be very easily be worked around simply by having a link to the errata with the previous version in full listed.
in your link it simply says " The adjustment to Intelligence has been removed." it doesn't say how much. simply having easy access to the old information so I could properly adjust would save a lot of frustration. And an automated message to everyone who owns that would at least make it feel like less of a slap in the face. I'm not a person who spends every moment on dnd sites. I run a game once a week, and I kept an eye out for adventures or source books that interested me.
Now I will not be purchasing anything in the future and intend to let my sub run out.
I mean... there was a notification sent out to all users. in the form of the errata announcement made by WotC and the errata thread. You missing it doesn't make it a stealth errata...
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
So when you came by last month with your grievance, I ended my comment thus:
The prior negatives are not hard to track down via open source research methods (like this CBR article found in under a minute over google) and are easily implemented via the homebrew tools. If you want to complain, that's your right, but the time and effort to simply use the tools to get the character option you want could be done in less time than the span between your complaints and rebuttals to your respondents, less energy too. But if you want to double down on the issue, you can research this board and see all the other complaints and consumers rights protests and maybe save yourself some keystrokes since I don't think anything you'll be typing will build further on what's already been said. You're already repeating yourself. You can make what you want or you can basically publicly sulk.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Two races out of a single book doesn't make a trend. It just means that there were two races instead of one that stood out for having a penalty that was not applied to any of the other available PC races with no justification for why those two were singled out. If you like playing old editions of the game, absolutely no one is going to stop you or even care, feel free to do so. But don't complain that the current edition's rules don't match the rules for an edition that hasn't been supported for over a decade (or two, depending on the edition).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You're warning people to read license agreements for online services?
I mean, that's noble and all, but hardly unique to D&D.
Yes. and PsyrenXY is right, it's not unique to DNDBeyond. All digital purchases are services, not a "thing" you own. It's the Internet economies dirty secret and, as PsyrenXY again pointed out, no one reads them (Terms of Agreement). Why would you, they can change that too.