As stated previously, the issue is not just weight or buoyancy, it is also water resistance. Water is far, far more dense than air is on Earth. Unless water has significantly different properties in the prime material plane(s) of D&D, a lot of armor becomes a hindrance to flexibility, speed, and combat capability.
,some thoughts on metal armours, swimming and the effects of fresh and salt water. 1) full plate is a bit of a stretch but we know of historical accounts of Roman auxiliaries swimming the Thames ( I believe) in medium armor to surprise the Britons during the conquest under Claudius. 2) under essentially all metal armors are layers of various padding, these don’t become saturated instantly and provide considerable offsetting bouncy until they do become saturated. 3) a lot of the mideveal stories of warriors/knights drowning in armor occur because the guys didn’t know how to swim- not sure why but apparently swimming wasn’t a common skill for much of history. ( even among sailors) 4) Decent and better swimmers are able to swim up to the surface with with a considerable non buoyant weight - talk to any lifeguard you want about their qualifying exams and the weights they had to recover. ( when I did it years and years ago I had to bring a 35# rock to the surface from 15’ down). 5) iron and steel do rust in both fresh and salt water but keeping it oiled when not in the water helps keep that from happening. Further, hi chromium “stainless” steels are extremely rust resistant. Any group capable of working Mithril (real world analog = Titanium) shouldn’t have any trouble working corrosion resistant alloy steels as well. Mithril/titanium doesn’t rust and is as hard and much lighter so it would be a better material for those landing on wearing armor in water regularly. 6) the real problem for tritons, sea elves, merfolk, etc is maintaining and controlling buoyancy as they move up and down in the water column. You gain an atmosphere of pressure every 33 ft down - 1/2 buoyancy at 33’, 1/3 at 66, 1/4 99 and 1/8 at 132’ unless you have a way to pump gases in and out of a bladder - welcome to the SCUBA diver’s BC.
On a side note and not that I do this, but personally, I don't agree with tying swimming to a STR check. It makes more sense to be DEX, imo...and CON if you have to swim any real distance. IRL, put the 2019 'world's strongest man' winner in a suit of plate mail and throw him in a lake...there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he'd sink like a rock and stay there.
I agree that it is a STR check. Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Strength Checks
A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.
Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:
You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off.
You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump.
You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming.
From a DM standpoint, I would probably put disadvantage on attack rolls and pretty much everything else.
This is partly covered in general. Unless a creature has a swim speed, indicating they're excellent swimmers, most weapons will already have penalties underwater anyway.
When adventurers pursue sahuagin back to their undersea homes, fight off sharks in an ancient shipwreck, or find themselves in a flooded dungeon room, they must fight in a challenging environment. Underwater the following rules apply.
When making a melee weapon attack, a creature that doesn't have a swimming speed (either natural or granted by magic) has disadvantage on the attack roll unless the weapon is a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear, or trident.
A ranged weapon attack automatically misses a target beyond the weapon's normal range. Even against a target within normal range, the attack roll has disadvantage unless the weapon is a crossbow, a net, or a weapon that is thrown like a javelin (including a spear, trident, or dart).
Creatures and objects that are fully immersed in water have resistance to fire damage.
3.5e had rules for swimming in heavy armor. They were miserable to play with. And I don't just mean that they were punishing -- though they were, in a way. Mostly they were just a total drain on fun. You were rolling the same skill check over and over again, and if you failed, you just forced this situation to drag on even longer. The optimal play was generally to use your whole turn trying to swim, so that's it: just roll Swim. Just keep rolling Swim. Just... Keep... Rolling... Swim. If you fail enough times, you'll have sunk so low that now you can't get to the surface in the time you have left, but the rules for air were so generous that you'd have to literally be in the ocean for this to matter. So there's no stakes, and no strategy. But if other people are doing stuff in initiative, you can't really fast forward through it. So you're just stuck rolling Swim.
Anyway, I'm very happy to leave that crap behind. Let your Paladins swim without rolling. It's fine.
As stated previously, the issue is not just weight or buoyancy, it is also water resistance. Water is far, far more dense than air is on Earth. Unless water has significantly different properties in the prime material plane(s) of D&D, a lot of armor becomes a hindrance to flexibility, speed, and combat capability.
I disagree on the first point. I think the rules already model water resistance as well as the scope of 5e allows: Disadvantage on most attacks, limitations on ranged attacks, and it counts as difficult terrain. But I don't believe the rules take buoyancy into account, which is why I added some houserules above.
I should note that I probably wouldn't have even bothered with house rules on swimming in armor, but my players have been role-playing their fear of it with their characters. In this case, it played into their expectations and added something to the game. In other games I'm sure its fine to swim around fully loaded like Beowulf.
I think the issue with this is that it makes races like Tritons (and Aquatic Elves whenever WotC decides to spend any time developing underwater adventures b/c you know there's nothing the devs love more than more Elf sub-races) OP in the water once they get their hands on heavy armor. All Fighter-type underwater races should be clamoring for chain mail/plate mail since, per RAW, they suffer no disadvantage from wearing it whatsoever under the current rules. If Triton and Merfolk are constantly fighting off Sahuagin and have better relations with above-water races that have smithing abilities (unlike the xenophobic Sahuagin), it would be ridiculous NOT to try to equip your shock troops with the best armor possible when it comes at no cost to mobility or lethality.
Having an innate swimming speed helps a great deal. However, if you're going to wear heavy armor underwater you're still going to need:
A. Proficiency in heavy armor.
B. A strength score great enough not to gimp your movement from wearing heavy armor, depending on the specific armor. (Unless you spring for something rarer like mithral.)
So it's not like every sea elf or triton is immediately going to be trained and ready to fight at full capacity with heavy armor in the sea. Personally I think it's fine to have aquatic races have a distinct advantage in underwater combat, that's sort of their thing, but in my games underwater combat tends to be pretty situational anyway. I could see someone wanting to add more rules if they're playing a grittier or more reaslitsic game and plan to feature underwater areas frequently.
A. Per RAW, all Fighters (and a fair number of Clerics) are Proficient in heavy armor. Check.
B. Strength score that allows full movement in heavy armor. There's no reason why Triton or Merfolk Fighters should have less strength than their above-land counterparts. Especially because they swim most of the time, which arguably makes them stronger, not weaker. Therefore, a non-issue.
I never said that EVERY sea elf or Merfolk would have full plate. The point is that where IF there is any in-game consistency of intelligence and depth of thinking about implications of PHB rules and what would happen if those rules actually applied to humanoid beings with humanoid emotions at war with other humanoid beings, Tritons and Merfolks absolutely should WANT heavy armor for their more muscular melee warriors. Please read my text more carefully next time.
Why are we assuming that merfolk, sahuagin, tritons, etc are using iron or steel plate mail/chain mail? If they are using steel, maybe they have an equivalent of stainless steel. Maybe they are not using metal and use coral, or lobster shells or kraken hide or octopus leather.
And keep in mind that these creatures have strength and anatomy built for water. Humanoid swimming is not particularly efficient. We are not very streamlined in water and do not move through it as easily as other creatures.
Personally, I do not let heavy armour players to swim, though, they can somewhat walk on the bottom. I think that swimming is a bit more forgiving than flying, but also quite similar in many aspects and in various rules extensions you cannot fly while wearing medium or heavy armour. So I think that medium armour should limit your swimming speed and heavy is just too heavy for swimming.
I admit that a lot of rules I use only as an inspiration and when the game demands it, I make my own rules that make the most sense at the time and are easy to use. I think this is one of those things that might be best to tailor to your needs in your campaign.
Personally I feel like the rules as is are punishing enough. Because really the only people who are realistically going into water in heavy armor are high strength characters with training (proficiency) in using that armor. You're not typically going to have a wizard PC for example diving into the sea in plate mail. Or using something like mythril armor that isn't as heavy as plate.
If someone doesn't have the strength requirement on an armor their speed will be extra ****** while swimming due to the speed penalty on the armor, and if they do it without proficiency that's a whole host of problems.
In a heroic fantasy game, I don't have a problem with a high strength character trained to move and fight in heavy armor managing to swim in it, especially since they're getting a movement penalty unless they also happen to have a swim speed.
For a more gritty game where the players and DM care more about survival mechanics etc, I could see this as more of a concern. And it isn't 'wrong' to further punish swimming in water if it fits your table. I just don't really see the need to further punish swimming in armor unless you're introducing a plethora of house rules to make the game more gritty and realistic. It would feel weird to me to just single out swimming in armor without also going after other things like being able to heal all your wounds with a good night's sleep as well.
Edit: Oh whoops it's this thread again and apparantly I laid my same thoughts out again a year ago today. Oh well lol.
Realistically, if you don't have the ability to breathe underwater any form of armor is going to be a serious hazard in water (even ordinary clothes are quite dangerous). If you do have the ability to breathe underwater, metal armor is actually considerably less bulky and would be less problematic than non-metallic armors (scuba divers do occasionally use armor for protection from sharks. It's chainmail).
In practice, if you want underwater adventures to be an option without the PCs replacing all their gear or getting slaughtered helplessly by the natives of the area, you're going to need to ignore most of the issues with water.
when wearing heavy armor it is not called swimming it is called sinking.
Try this. Grab something that weighs about 10 pounds and swim across the pool with it.
We're not talking about plucking an average peasant off the street and pushing them into the ocean with heavy armor on. We're talking high strength characters with training in wearing, moving and fighting in heavy armor. It's highly implausible that like, the party rogue or sorcerer are going to don plate and jump into a lake to search for treasure.
If someone doesn't meet the strength score of the armor and jumps in, then the movement penalty from the armor combined with moving at half speed in the water is going to dangerously limit their movement. Unless they have a means of breathing underwater, but at that point most of the danger of being underwater, drowning, is trivialized anyway.
Wearing armor you aren't proficient (trained) in will just gimp how useful you are anyway, cutting off all spell use and giving disadvantage on d20 checks using strength or agility.
So the only people going into the water with heavy armor are going to be high strength characters (or people with Mithral or similar replacements that don't actually weigh much), and with training in that armor. Your fighters, your paladins, the occasional high strength cleric.
They already have their movement speed nerfed unless they have a swim speed in the water, combined with the threat of drowning I feel like that's danger enough without disallowing them to wear the heavier armor, and if they have water breathing who cares at that point, most of the danger of water is now circumvented.
I just thought I'd throw out there, to anyone stumbles across this thread and bothers to read 6 pages in, that there is a real life epic story of just this issue. You should all read about the drowning of Frederick Barbarosa. In the 12th century, the first Holy Roman Emperor set on a crusade. Marched all the way to the holy land, only to drown in a river because his armour was too heavy.
when wearing heavy armor it is not called swimming it is called sinking.
Try this. Grab something that weighs about 10 pounds and swim across the pool with it.
Did that a few times for lifeguard certification. It’s a workout, especially if you have to dive down and bring the weight up first, but quite doable if you’re in decent shape.
There are conflicting reports about Fredrick Barbarossa's death, but the one that's generally considered to be the most credible is that he tried to cool off by taking a swim in the river after weeks of marching but drowned due to exhaustion brought on by said weeks of marching. He was also 67 at the time, and not used to the heat of the Middle East, and it's been pointed out by scholars that he could possibly have suffered from a heart attack, stroke, or other medical event.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Did that a few times for lifeguard certification. It’s a workout, especially if you have to dive down and bring the weight up first, but quite doable if you’re in decent shape.
Been a very long time since I did lifeguard certification; I assume that's a metal weight or something? Ten pounds near neutral density wouldn't be a problem. However, no metal armor weighs less than twenty pounds and weapons would also be a problem.
Realistically, trying to swim in any sort of armor, even light, would be a miserable experience, as would be trying to use most weapons and spells, but D&D is supposed to be heroic fantasy.
Did that a few times for lifeguard certification. It’s a workout, especially if you have to dive down and bring the weight up first, but quite doable if you’re in decent shape.
Been a very long time since I did lifeguard certification; I assume that's a metal weight or something? Ten pounds near neutral density wouldn't be a problem. However, no metal armor weighs less than twenty pounds and weapons would also be a problem.
Realistically, trying to swim in any sort of armor, even light, would be a miserable experience, as would be trying to use most weapons and spells, but D&D is supposed to be heroic fantasy.
Diving brick; rubber on the outside but probably metal inside. And metal armor would weigh more, but it also would be distributed across the body rather than taking up one or both arms. Realistically there would be issues, but a scuba tank can weight 35 lbs. according to a quick Google, so about half the metal armors are still in the right ballpark based simply on weight.
And yeah, at the end of the day basically everything about moving underwater needs to be handwaved if most characters are going to function at all while underwater.
Diving brick; rubber on the outside but probably metal inside. And metal armor would weigh more, but it also would be distributed across the body rather than taking up one or both arms. Realistically there would be issues, but a scuba tank can weight 35 lbs. according to a quick Google, so about half the metal armors are still in the right ballpark based simply on weight.
Scuba gear is pretty near neutral buoyancy, which is what actually matters underwater, not raw weight; a full steel tank is about 9 pounds net, and a diving suit frequently provides lift.
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As stated previously, the issue is not just weight or buoyancy, it is also water resistance. Water is far, far more dense than air is on Earth. Unless water has significantly different properties in the prime material plane(s) of D&D, a lot of armor becomes a hindrance to flexibility, speed, and combat capability.
From a DM standpoint, I would probably put disadvantage on attack rolls and pretty much everything else.
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
,some thoughts on metal armours, swimming and the effects of fresh and salt water.
1) full plate is a bit of a stretch but we know of historical accounts of Roman auxiliaries swimming the Thames ( I believe) in medium armor to surprise the Britons during the conquest under Claudius.
2) under essentially all metal armors are layers of various padding, these don’t become saturated instantly and provide considerable offsetting bouncy until they do become saturated.
3) a lot of the mideveal stories of warriors/knights drowning in armor occur because the guys didn’t know how to swim- not sure why but apparently swimming wasn’t a common skill for much of history. ( even among sailors)
4) Decent and better swimmers are able to swim up to the surface with with a considerable non buoyant weight - talk to any lifeguard you want about their qualifying exams and the weights they had to recover. ( when I did it years and years ago I had to bring a 35# rock to the surface from 15’ down).
5) iron and steel do rust in both fresh and salt water but keeping it oiled when not in the water helps keep that from happening. Further, hi chromium “stainless” steels are extremely rust resistant. Any group capable of working Mithril (real world analog = Titanium) shouldn’t have any trouble working corrosion resistant alloy steels as well. Mithril/titanium doesn’t rust and is as hard and much lighter so it would be a better material for those landing on wearing armor in water regularly.
6) the real problem for tritons, sea elves, merfolk, etc is maintaining and controlling buoyancy as they move up and down in the water column. You gain an atmosphere of pressure every 33 ft down - 1/2 buoyancy at 33’, 1/3 at 66, 1/4 99 and 1/8 at 132’ unless you have a way to pump gases in and out of a bladder - welcome to the SCUBA diver’s BC.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I agree that it is a STR check. Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Strength Checks
A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.
Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:
This is partly covered in general. Unless a creature has a swim speed, indicating they're excellent swimmers, most weapons will already have penalties underwater anyway.
When adventurers pursue sahuagin back to their undersea homes, fight off sharks in an ancient shipwreck, or find themselves in a flooded dungeon room, they must fight in a challenging environment. Underwater the following rules apply.
When making a melee weapon attack, a creature that doesn't have a swimming speed (either natural or granted by magic) has disadvantage on the attack roll unless the weapon is a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear, or trident.
A ranged weapon attack automatically misses a target beyond the weapon's normal range. Even against a target within normal range, the attack roll has disadvantage unless the weapon is a crossbow, a net, or a weapon that is thrown like a javelin (including a spear, trident, or dart).
Creatures and objects that are fully immersed in water have resistance to fire damage.
3.5e had rules for swimming in heavy armor. They were miserable to play with. And I don't just mean that they were punishing -- though they were, in a way. Mostly they were just a total drain on fun. You were rolling the same skill check over and over again, and if you failed, you just forced this situation to drag on even longer. The optimal play was generally to use your whole turn trying to swim, so that's it: just roll Swim. Just keep rolling Swim. Just... Keep... Rolling... Swim. If you fail enough times, you'll have sunk so low that now you can't get to the surface in the time you have left, but the rules for air were so generous that you'd have to literally be in the ocean for this to matter. So there's no stakes, and no strategy. But if other people are doing stuff in initiative, you can't really fast forward through it. So you're just stuck rolling Swim.
Anyway, I'm very happy to leave that crap behind. Let your Paladins swim without rolling. It's fine.
I disagree on the first point. I think the rules already model water resistance as well as the scope of 5e allows: Disadvantage on most attacks, limitations on ranged attacks, and it counts as difficult terrain. But I don't believe the rules take buoyancy into account, which is why I added some houserules above.
I should note that I probably wouldn't have even bothered with house rules on swimming in armor, but my players have been role-playing their fear of it with their characters. In this case, it played into their expectations and added something to the game. In other games I'm sure its fine to swim around fully loaded like Beowulf.
Why are we assuming that merfolk, sahuagin, tritons, etc are using iron or steel plate mail/chain mail? If they are using steel, maybe they have an equivalent of stainless steel. Maybe they are not using metal and use coral, or lobster shells or kraken hide or octopus leather.
And keep in mind that these creatures have strength and anatomy built for water. Humanoid swimming is not particularly efficient. We are not very streamlined in water and do not move through it as easily as other creatures.
I am using the home brew at tomorrow's game.
Someone is bound to fall into the water in the Plunging Torrents (PotA).
Thanks, HeathSmith.
Personally, I do not let heavy armour players to swim, though, they can somewhat walk on the bottom. I think that swimming is a bit more forgiving than flying, but also quite similar in many aspects and in various rules extensions you cannot fly while wearing medium or heavy armour. So I think that medium armour should limit your swimming speed and heavy is just too heavy for swimming.
I admit that a lot of rules I use only as an inspiration and when the game demands it, I make my own rules that make the most sense at the time and are easy to use. I think this is one of those things that might be best to tailor to your needs in your campaign.
Personally I feel like the rules as is are punishing enough. Because really the only people who are realistically going into water in heavy armor are high strength characters with training (proficiency) in using that armor. You're not typically going to have a wizard PC for example diving into the sea in plate mail. Or using something like mythril armor that isn't as heavy as plate.
If someone doesn't have the strength requirement on an armor their speed will be extra ****** while swimming due to the speed penalty on the armor, and if they do it without proficiency that's a whole host of problems.
In a heroic fantasy game, I don't have a problem with a high strength character trained to move and fight in heavy armor managing to swim in it, especially since they're getting a movement penalty unless they also happen to have a swim speed.
For a more gritty game where the players and DM care more about survival mechanics etc, I could see this as more of a concern. And it isn't 'wrong' to further punish swimming in water if it fits your table. I just don't really see the need to further punish swimming in armor unless you're introducing a plethora of house rules to make the game more gritty and realistic. It would feel weird to me to just single out swimming in armor without also going after other things like being able to heal all your wounds with a good night's sleep as well.
Edit: Oh whoops it's this thread again and apparantly I laid my same thoughts out again a year ago today. Oh well lol.
Realistically, if you don't have the ability to breathe underwater any form of armor is going to be a serious hazard in water (even ordinary clothes are quite dangerous). If you do have the ability to breathe underwater, metal armor is actually considerably less bulky and would be less problematic than non-metallic armors (scuba divers do occasionally use armor for protection from sharks. It's chainmail).
In practice, if you want underwater adventures to be an option without the PCs replacing all their gear or getting slaughtered helplessly by the natives of the area, you're going to need to ignore most of the issues with water.
when wearing heavy armor it is not called swimming it is called sinking.
Try this. Grab something that weighs about 10 pounds and swim across the pool with it.
We're not talking about plucking an average peasant off the street and pushing them into the ocean with heavy armor on. We're talking high strength characters with training in wearing, moving and fighting in heavy armor. It's highly implausible that like, the party rogue or sorcerer are going to don plate and jump into a lake to search for treasure.
If someone doesn't meet the strength score of the armor and jumps in, then the movement penalty from the armor combined with moving at half speed in the water is going to dangerously limit their movement. Unless they have a means of breathing underwater, but at that point most of the danger of being underwater, drowning, is trivialized anyway.
Wearing armor you aren't proficient (trained) in will just gimp how useful you are anyway, cutting off all spell use and giving disadvantage on d20 checks using strength or agility.
So the only people going into the water with heavy armor are going to be high strength characters (or people with Mithral or similar replacements that don't actually weigh much), and with training in that armor. Your fighters, your paladins, the occasional high strength cleric.
They already have their movement speed nerfed unless they have a swim speed in the water, combined with the threat of drowning I feel like that's danger enough without disallowing them to wear the heavier armor, and if they have water breathing who cares at that point, most of the danger of water is now circumvented.
I just thought I'd throw out there, to anyone stumbles across this thread and bothers to read 6 pages in, that there is a real life epic story of just this issue. You should all read about the drowning of Frederick Barbarosa. In the 12th century, the first Holy Roman Emperor set on a crusade. Marched all the way to the holy land, only to drown in a river because his armour was too heavy.
Did that a few times for lifeguard certification. It’s a workout, especially if you have to dive down and bring the weight up first, but quite doable if you’re in decent shape.
There are conflicting reports about Fredrick Barbarossa's death, but the one that's generally considered to be the most credible is that he tried to cool off by taking a swim in the river after weeks of marching but drowned due to exhaustion brought on by said weeks of marching. He was also 67 at the time, and not used to the heat of the Middle East, and it's been pointed out by scholars that he could possibly have suffered from a heart attack, stroke, or other medical event.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Been a very long time since I did lifeguard certification; I assume that's a metal weight or something? Ten pounds near neutral density wouldn't be a problem. However, no metal armor weighs less than twenty pounds and weapons would also be a problem.
Realistically, trying to swim in any sort of armor, even light, would be a miserable experience, as would be trying to use most weapons and spells, but D&D is supposed to be heroic fantasy.
Diving brick; rubber on the outside but probably metal inside. And metal armor would weigh more, but it also would be distributed across the body rather than taking up one or both arms. Realistically there would be issues, but a scuba tank can weight 35 lbs. according to a quick Google, so about half the metal armors are still in the right ballpark based simply on weight.
And yeah, at the end of the day basically everything about moving underwater needs to be handwaved if most characters are going to function at all while underwater.
Scuba gear is pretty near neutral buoyancy, which is what actually matters underwater, not raw weight; a full steel tank is about 9 pounds net, and a diving suit frequently provides lift.