In 5e, they're effectively the same thing now... except as far as we can tell, one uses portals and the other uses boats.
Do you like the new mixture of these two?
I don't. I REALLY rubs me the wrong way. The style of game you can get from the two is completely different, and mixing them feels like comparing the Poney Express to the Telephone (with Plane Shift as the Telephone). Like, what's the point of Spell Jammer if you can just find a magic door to go to that same place? Or the door to the hub that has the door to that place.
I'm sure they did it to simplify everything, but it just feels wrong.
Although, in both shows there were examples of the other method of transportation. People had starships in Stargate and there were portals/instant transportation in Trek - maybe you can do a similar dynamic in D&D?
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For one, it’s just giving you options. Why on earth are options bad?
Also plane shift requires a possibility obscure material component to go to a different world. If you have a spelljamming ship (granted, also possibly obscure), you only need to know about the world, not have a tuning fork for it.
Plane shift goes places spelljammer does not — outer planes, elemental planes — near as I can tell, those are not accessible by spelljamming.
Plane shift is a level 7 spell, so you are 15th level when you have access to it. You can hop on a spelljammer at level 1.
Also, it’s arguable you can’t use plane shift to travel between different worlds, as they are all on the same plane (at least that’s my understanding of the “official” cosmology). Though I guess you can specify a location, so maybe you can move from one place to another on the material plane with the same tuning fork? Probably that one is a DM ruling.
Which brings us to teleport, which will also allow you to move from one world to another, and also dream of the blue veil. So why get mad at plane shift when it’s only one of the spells that do it?
Dang. Why take a ride through Astral Space when you can just grab your local 15th level wizard and get him to Plane Shift you where you want to go? Oh wait, most towns don't even have a level 3 wizard; no way they'll have a level 15 one.
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Spelljammers are used to move in different worlds in the material plane (not sure if you can do it even in other planes, like between different planets of the Elemental Plane of Shadows).
For example you can use it to go from Toril to Oarth or Eberron.
Plane Shift is used travel between different planes.
If you want to mix them you have to figure out what is happening in the other planes once you Spelljamm. For example the Elemental Plane of fire I can travel too from Faerun is the same one I can access from Athas (Dark Sun planet)?
Can I visit the same places and see the same peoples on both Elemental planes?
I had to answer myself this question because of things happening in a former campaign and I came up to the conclusion that, even if the cosmic structure is the same or similar, planes are different, at least some of them.
For 3 main reasons:
1. Otherwise smart players could use Astral travel to circumvent the need of Speeljammer s: they could simply pit stop in another plane and jump from Krynn to Toril, for example or they could trade with people from other Material Worlds in extra-planar trading hubs (like in the Brass City).
2. Locations in some planar places, like Faerie/Fey Wild/Prime World tend to mirror the Material Plane. How could it mirror so many material worlds?
3. Gods and other things are not consistent in all settings
As so I bought the concept from Dragonlance in which is basically told that there is a “veil” segregating locations of different planes in different worlds and protecting Krynn’s gods from “foreign” ones.
I made some exceptions:
A) Abyss is actually the same in all planes. Not all Layers of the Abyss are directly accessible from every planet and for obvious reasons is difficult and dangerous to use the Abyss as a travel medium + the infinite layers makes possible to twist things a bit and avoid too much overlapping of things between different material worlds.
Cosmological explanation: the Abyss is like an ancient substratum, is maybe the relic of a previous and ancient incarnation of the multiverse and is less affected by the structure in which modern Gods used to structure the universe.
B) Celestial plane. Is actually the same, but is segregated in zones by veils, so that “foreign” gods can’t access different worlds. Gods with a sequel and powers in different worlds also have their Celestial Realm that overlapping in the space-time areas of different sectors of the celestial planes and is able to access them. Theoretically you could access other material worlds from the Celestial plane, but you need to do it through a specific God’s Realm (and only for a God that is overlapping in different worlds -for example you can’t do it passing from the domain of Paladine, that is a god only in Krynn-). And, generally speaking, you need either the God’s consensus or you need to be strong enough to bend the God’s Realm to your will. As you can imagine is very unlikely for it to happen.
Cosmological explanations:OverGods didn’t wanted petty gods of different pantheons to mess up the multiverse, but they allowed some god to exist in different specific areas of the multiverse.
C) Hell, Inferno. Hell, as the specific domain of Asmodeus exists overlapping in thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of worlds. The same Devils and other denizens of Hell can be evocated in different worlds, but mortals that travels to Hell (and even brings from the Celestial planes or other planes) can only go back to the sector of multiverse they come from.
Cosmological explanation: Hell fabric was structured in this way by OverGods, to avoid that it was used by powerful externals to travel from world to world and they messed with multiverse. Living beings can circumvent this only with the authorization of Asmodeus that was trusted to keep the system working by different overgods.
Consequences: Hell can be used an effective trading place for beings of different universes, since living sentient beings can’t use it to travel to other dimensions, but merchandise can. Obviously is very dangerous to do it. There are some people licensed by Devil Lords to carry this trade (and some trades are carried by devils themselves). But the price is steep.
The second consequence is that devils (and demons) are knowledgeable of many things happening in different universes.
D) Faerie/Feywilde/ Prime World. There are different planets in different Spheres, segregated by flogistum, exactly like in the material plane. As so, different planets in the same plane, segregated in local dimensions. There is a Feywilde planet occupying the same pocket dimension of Faerun and a different one of Exandria, for instances.
Theoretically speaking is possible to use a Spelljammer ship to travel from one planet of the Feywilde to the other, but space and time are so irregular and flogistum so erratic that is an outright suicide. The messed up time and space makes also sometimes possible to travel directly from one world of the Feywilde to another, but these passages are either erratic or secrets that are very well guarded by the powers of Feywilde.
E) Shadowplane: exactly like Material Plane and Feywilde (all three of them are at the center of creation). There are different planets, in different spheres.
Is possible to go from one to the other using Speeljammers, with two caveat: flogistum currents are really weak and so more time is needed to travel and really scary monsters are lurking in the pitch black darkness of the void between different spheres of the Shadowplane.
F) Ethereal plane is like Material Plane, Feywilde and Shadowplane, but, in the space between Spheres, ether and flogistum mix and you need specially built Speeljammer to sail there.
G)The elemental planes could be the same, but they are infinite, and, as so, is almost impossible to locate regions of the elemental plane that are accessible from different universes.
I treat all the other planes as totally segregated and each existing in only one portion of the Multiverse. There could be a Jenna in different areas of the multiverse, but they would be different versions of it, not the same one.
I do not see how they are the same thing, but I do not mind mixing them either. As othes have said, one essentislly uses spaceships to travel the universe, while the other uses portals to travel to different dimensions.
I do not think the default style and tone of the setting precludes them from mixing together, or that they are stuck in their default. You can do horror or office comedy in Spelljammer, just as you can do exploration and epics in Ravenloft, or romance and political intrigue in Acquisitions Incorporated. And campaigns do not have to have their style and tone be static either, and you can shift them over the course of the campaign.
And besides, if you are the GM, you can decide how to run your games. You do not have to mix settings if you do not want to, and you certainly do not have to deviate from the default style recommended in the books either.
Using Teleport, Plane Shift and Veil of the Blue Moon or whatever it's called, will certainly be more efficient. But they're all 7th level spells and have restrictions or drawbacks.
Spelljamming is possible at lower level. Making everything yourself will require higher levels, but still lower than 7th level spells, and a lot of gold. But if the adventure calls for such your DM may grant a spelljamming option right from the get-go, as early as 1st level. Spelljamming is also much more effective for transporting larger amounts of people and also transports cargo which the spells don't. Spelljamming is limited to where it can go, but there are ways around that.
Both spelljaming and planar spells are useful for transport but they have different purposes and availability.
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Spelljammers also have, or can easily have "holds" that allow for trade, something planeshift can only do at a much more reduced scale. Casting plane shift also allows the caster and up to 8 willing people. A spell jammer can use that hold space to transport many more willing warriors or unwilling prisoners.
These distinctions are sort of moot, unless you want to make your cosmology fuzzy, when your recognize the distinction between plane and world.. Plane shift shifts between planes. Spelljamming allows for travel among worlds that exist in the prime material plane. That's why you have dream of the blue veil. If plane shift allowed for travel among worlds, dream of the blue veil wouldn't need to exist as a spell slot solution.
Think of this: one can't "spell jam" from your game world to the fey wild or shadow fell, because as defined in the default lore both those places are "echo planes" mapped to your game world but in a different but very close plane of existence.
It's like physics vs metaphysics in some ways, moreso once Planescape becomes official content, if they stick to some of its original premises.
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In 5e, they're effectively the same thing now... except as far as we can tell, one uses portals and the other uses boats.
Do you like the new mixture of these two?
I don't. I REALLY rubs me the wrong way. The style of game you can get from the two is completely different, and mixing them feels like comparing the Poney Express to the Telephone (with Plane Shift as the Telephone). Like, what's the point of Spell Jammer if you can just find a magic door to go to that same place? Or the door to the hub that has the door to that place.
I'm sure they did it to simplify everything, but it just feels wrong.
Plane Shift and Spelljammers is precisely analogous to Teleport and sailing boats.
Different modes of travel can get you to the same place. In the real world, you'll notice that walking and driving are different modes of transportation that let you arrive at the same destination, with a variation in the level of arcanery involved. More arcane usually equals faster.
One of my homebrew worlds is flat (and infinite) - so, not a planet - and if you walk for long enough, you'll reach the outer planes. And for once, they're actually 'outer', since the physically surround the .. rest of reality.
Sometimes options are just plain bad. Just look at 3.5, or Pathfinder. So many bad options, the good ones drown in the deluge, and makes a worse game except for the tiny minority with the patience and attitude to sort through all that to find what works.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Personally, I’m not a fan of Spelljammer going through the Astral plane instead of the phlogiston. Spelljammer was a means to get from one crystal sphere to another without leaving the prime material plane. Traveling through the Astral opens up to going to other planes in your Spelljammer provided the portal in the Astral is big enough. Now it feels like Spelljammer and Planescape are the same thing. I shall remain using the older material for Spelljammer.
Notwithstanding the above, there is no such list of example sentences to be found. Unless the poster edited his post before I finished mine. Or after, at the case may eventually be.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sometimes options are just plain bad. Just look at 3.5, or Pathfinder. So many bad options, the good ones drown in the deluge, and makes a worse game except for the tiny minority with the patience and attitude to sort through all that to find what works.
I rather the game cater to more people by giving more options than catering to less people with less options. You do not have to use the option if you do not like it. Do not like it, do not buy it.
Most people do not need the patience and/or attitude to sort through a deluge of options, since most people do not buy every book. And for people who do buy every book, they want the variety of options.
I rather the game cater to more people by giving more options than catering to less people with less options. You do not have to use the option if you do not like it. Do not like it, do not buy it.
Most people do not need the patience and/or attitude to sort through a deluge of options, since most people do not buy every book. And for people who do buy every book, they want the variety of options.
That's the argument, yes. Quantity over quality. Drown the masses in an endless flood of chinese plastic junk, and they'll be forever happy.
I understand the argument, and I genuinely disagree, to the point that I hope the world eventually learns. More options literally makes everything worse. And I can prove it. Sorta. Genuinely great things are drowned out by the marketing of utter worthless junk. Good music, real art, excellent wine, pick your choice - you cannot even find the good stuff anymore, because everything is a needle in a haystack of repetitive, high-calorie, mass-produced ... fluff.
Random example: Le Ragose. Italian wine maker. He's a bitter, angry man. I know this, because I met him, and he was bitter and angry. From his office, he had a view of the entire valley, vineyards stretching to the horison. He makes amarone. You may not know, but amarone can only be made from grapes grown at a certain hight above sea level. So he pointed down in the valley (well below the required level) and complained that those were all amarone vineyards. And that further, when those grapes were used up, they imported grapes from Macedonia to make more fake amarone.
And do you know why he was so bitter? A year later, I found his wine at a store back home. And he's doing it too. The wine I bought in a store in Denmark - in an identical bottle, same year, same brand, same everything - was not the same wine. He all but said so himself - 'when Rema1000 orders 100.000 bottles of amarone, you find a way to deliver, even at prices you cannot make amarone for'.
But I could buy the real amarone at his vineyard in Italy. But only there. Because he cannot produce enough of it to meet demand, so instead he bottles swill and sells it to stupid danes who don't know any better. Demeaning his product, his name, his family business. And I'm sure he hates it, intensely.
Not particularly related to Tasha's or Mordenkainen's. But the principle still applies: To avoid drowning in the deluge, you need to vomit out copious amounts yourself. Denmark is famous for quality furniture - but quality danish furniture is no longer built in Denmark. And that means that, over time, we'll lose that distinction. We'll be just another nation who designs furniture to be built by the chinese. The market for quality will have shrunk further, and more people will be buying Ikea. When I was young, we cared about quality of pickups, amplifiers, gold cables and plugs, speakers. Young people today cannot tell you the quality of the music they download, and it doesn't matter anyways because of the crap they use for playback. It makes me sad, really. Such a bland, hopeless world you're making for yourselves (I still care about the pickups and stuff). As you may surmise, my views on this go beyond the latest supplement =)
Never mind. I realise this is a minority view =D
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sometimes options are just plain bad. Just look at 3.5, or Pathfinder. So many bad options, the good ones drown in the deluge, and makes a worse game except for the tiny minority with the patience and attitude to sort through all that to find what works.
I rather the game cater to more people by giving more options than catering to less people with less options. You do not have to use the option if you do not like it. Do not like it, do not buy it.
Most people do not need the patience and/or attitude to sort through a deluge of options, since most people do not buy every book. And for people who do buy every book, they want the variety of options.
not to get too roped into this, but just to note: 2nd and 3rd editions of dnd became hugely bogged down in fractally smaller and more nuanced options. you couldn't swing a mummified cat without stopping to have a table-wide debate whether it counts as a flail, lasso proficiency, alternate chain rule, improvised weapon, combat bandage triage specialist, or animal handling (desert). granted, this was before online databases with instant keyword look-up so now there appears to be space for this sort of thing. however, the intent behind 5e has been to step back and let the narrative handle a lot of things. fewer options in dnd doesn't mean less opportunity but rather less restriction.
having said that, "should we take the shuttle craft or just teleport?" doesn't seem like too many options yet.
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I rather the game cater to more people by giving more options than catering to less people with less options. You do not have to use the option if you do not like it. Do not like it, do not buy it.
Most people do not need the patience and/or attitude to sort through a deluge of options, since most people do not buy every book. And for people who do buy every book, they want the variety of options.
That's the argument, yes. Quantity over quality. Drown the masses in an endless flood of chinese plastic junk, and they'll be forever happy.
......
Never mind. I realise this is a minority view =D
If people want to buy it and Wizards wants to fill that demand and sell it, there is nothing wrong with that. And you can have both quantity and quality. America literally has the largest and best air force in the world for example, although we are paying an arm and leg for it.
Sometimes options are just plain bad. Just look at 3.5, or Pathfinder. So many bad options, the good ones drown in the deluge, and makes a worse game except for the tiny minority with the patience and attitude to sort through all that to find what works.
I rather the game cater to more people by giving more options than catering to less people with less options. You do not have to use the option if you do not like it. Do not like it, do not buy it.
Most people do not need the patience and/or attitude to sort through a deluge of options, since most people do not buy every book. And for people who do buy every book, they want the variety of options.
not to get too roped into this, but just to note: 2nd and 3rd editions of dnd became hugely bogged down in fractally smaller and more nuanced options. you couldn't swing a mummified cat without stopping to have a table-wide debate whether it counts as a flail, lasso proficiency, alternate chain rule, improvised weapon, combat bandage triage specialist, or animal handling (desert). granted, this was before online databases with instant keyword look-up so now there appears to be space for this sort of thing. however, the intent behind 5e has been to step back and let the narrative handle a lot of things. fewer options in dnd doesn't mean less opportunity but rather less restriction.
having said that, "should we take the shuttle craft or just teleport?" doesn't seem like too many options yet.
That is what the GM is for, to decide on the rules at the table.
I’m actually no longer interested in Spelljammer, the 5e attempt at a revival absolutely killed it for me. All the information and crunch I needed was absent. Planescape I have tentative hopes for and it could work at any level (though I personally wouldn’t feel Planes Hopping was “legit” until around 8th level myself). You don’t need Plane Shift, just a portal and a planar hub.
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In 5e, they're effectively the same thing now... except as far as we can tell, one uses portals and the other uses boats.
Do you like the new mixture of these two?
I don't. I REALLY rubs me the wrong way. The style of game you can get from the two is completely different, and mixing them feels like comparing the Poney Express to the Telephone (with Plane Shift as the Telephone). Like, what's the point of Spell Jammer if you can just find a magic door to go to that same place? Or the door to the hub that has the door to that place.
I'm sure they did it to simplify everything, but it just feels wrong.
Star Trek v Stargate.
Although, in both shows there were examples of the other method of transportation. People had starships in Stargate and there were portals/instant transportation in Trek - maybe you can do a similar dynamic in D&D?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
For one, it’s just giving you options. Why on earth are options bad?
Also plane shift requires a possibility obscure material component to go to a different world. If you have a spelljamming ship (granted, also possibly obscure), you only need to know about the world, not have a tuning fork for it.
Plane shift goes places spelljammer does not — outer planes, elemental planes — near as I can tell, those are not accessible by spelljamming.
Plane shift is a level 7 spell, so you are 15th level when you have access to it. You can hop on a spelljammer at level 1.
Also, it’s arguable you can’t use plane shift to travel between different worlds, as they are all on the same plane (at least that’s my understanding of the “official” cosmology). Though I guess you can specify a location, so maybe you can move from one place to another on the material plane with the same tuning fork? Probably that one is a DM ruling.
Which brings us to teleport, which will also allow you to move from one world to another, and also dream of the blue veil. So why get mad at plane shift when it’s only one of the spells that do it?
Dang. Why take a ride through Astral Space when you can just grab your local 15th level wizard and get him to Plane Shift you where you want to go? Oh wait, most towns don't even have a level 3 wizard; no way they'll have a level 15 one.
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HERE.Spelljammers are used to move in different worlds in the material plane (not sure if you can do it even in other planes, like between different planets of the Elemental Plane of Shadows).
For example you can use it to go from Toril to Oarth or Eberron.
Plane Shift is used travel between different planes.
If you want to mix them you have to figure out what is happening in the other planes once you Spelljamm.
For example the Elemental Plane of fire I can travel too from Faerun is the same one I can access from Athas (Dark Sun planet)?
Can I visit the same places and see the same peoples on both Elemental planes?
I had to answer myself this question because of things happening in a former campaign and I came up to the conclusion that, even if the cosmic structure is the same or similar, planes are different, at least some of them.
For 3 main reasons:
1. Otherwise smart players could use Astral travel to circumvent the need of Speeljammer s: they could simply pit stop in another plane and jump from Krynn to Toril, for example or they could trade with people from other Material Worlds in extra-planar trading hubs (like in the Brass City).
2. Locations in some planar places, like Faerie/Fey Wild/Prime World tend to mirror the Material Plane. How could it mirror so many material worlds?
3. Gods and other things are not consistent in all settings
As so I bought the concept from Dragonlance in which is basically told that there is a “veil” segregating locations of different planes in different worlds and protecting Krynn’s gods from “foreign” ones.
I made some exceptions:
A) Abyss is actually the same in all planes.
Not all Layers of the Abyss are directly accessible from every planet and for obvious reasons is difficult and dangerous to use the Abyss as a travel medium + the infinite layers makes possible to twist things a bit and avoid too much overlapping of things between different material worlds.
Cosmological explanation: the Abyss is like an ancient substratum, is maybe the relic of a previous and ancient incarnation of the multiverse and is less affected by the structure in which modern Gods used to structure the universe.
B) Celestial plane. Is actually the same, but is segregated in zones by veils, so that “foreign” gods can’t access different worlds. Gods with a sequel and powers in different worlds also have their Celestial Realm that overlapping in the space-time areas of different sectors of the celestial planes and is able to access them. Theoretically you could access other material worlds from the Celestial plane, but you need to do it through a specific God’s Realm (and only for a God that is overlapping in different worlds -for example you can’t do it passing from the domain of Paladine, that is a god only in Krynn-). And, generally speaking, you need either the God’s consensus or you need to be strong enough to bend the God’s Realm to your will. As you can imagine is very unlikely for it to happen.
Cosmological explanations:OverGods didn’t wanted petty gods of different pantheons to mess up the multiverse, but they allowed some god to exist in different specific areas of the multiverse.
C) Hell, Inferno. Hell, as the specific domain of Asmodeus exists overlapping in thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of worlds. The same Devils and other denizens of Hell can be evocated in different worlds, but mortals that travels to Hell (and even brings from the Celestial planes or other planes) can only go back to the sector of multiverse they come from.
Cosmological explanation: Hell fabric was structured in this way by OverGods, to avoid that it was used by powerful externals to travel from world to world and they messed with multiverse. Living beings can circumvent this only with the authorization of Asmodeus that was trusted to keep the system working by different overgods.
Consequences: Hell can be used an effective trading place for beings of different universes, since living sentient beings can’t use it to travel to other dimensions, but merchandise can. Obviously is very dangerous to do it. There are some people licensed by Devil Lords to carry this trade (and some trades are carried by devils themselves). But the price is steep.
The second consequence is that devils (and demons) are knowledgeable of many things happening in different universes.
D) Faerie/Feywilde/ Prime World. There are different planets in different Spheres, segregated by flogistum, exactly like in the material plane. As so, different planets in the same plane, segregated in local dimensions. There is a Feywilde planet occupying the same pocket dimension of Faerun and a different one of Exandria, for instances.
Theoretically speaking is possible to use a Spelljammer ship to travel from one planet of the Feywilde to the other, but space and time are so irregular and flogistum so erratic that is an outright suicide. The messed up time and space makes also sometimes possible to travel directly from one world of the Feywilde to another, but these passages are either erratic or secrets that are very well guarded by the powers of Feywilde.
E) Shadowplane: exactly like Material Plane and Feywilde (all three of them are at the center of creation). There are different planets, in different spheres.
Is possible to go from one to the other using Speeljammers, with two caveat: flogistum currents are really weak and so more time is needed to travel and really scary monsters are lurking in the pitch black darkness of the void between different spheres of the Shadowplane.
F) Ethereal plane is like Material Plane, Feywilde and Shadowplane, but, in the space between Spheres, ether and flogistum mix and you need specially built Speeljammer to sail there.
G)The elemental planes could be the same, but they are infinite, and, as so, is almost impossible to locate regions of the elemental plane that are accessible from different universes.
I treat all the other planes as totally segregated and each existing in only one portion of the Multiverse. There could be a Jenna in different areas of the multiverse, but they would be different versions of it, not the same one.
I do not see how they are the same thing, but I do not mind mixing them either. As othes have said, one essentislly uses spaceships to travel the universe, while the other uses portals to travel to different dimensions.
I do not think the default style and tone of the setting precludes them from mixing together, or that they are stuck in their default. You can do horror or office comedy in Spelljammer, just as you can do exploration and epics in Ravenloft, or romance and political intrigue in Acquisitions Incorporated. And campaigns do not have to have their style and tone be static either, and you can shift them over the course of the campaign.
And besides, if you are the GM, you can decide how to run your games. You do not have to mix settings if you do not want to, and you certainly do not have to deviate from the default style recommended in the books either.
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I would like to keep space/ multiverse travel separate from planer travel, that is just my opinion.
Using Teleport, Plane Shift and Veil of the Blue Moon or whatever it's called, will certainly be more efficient. But they're all 7th level spells and have restrictions or drawbacks.
Spelljamming is possible at lower level. Making everything yourself will require higher levels, but still lower than 7th level spells, and a lot of gold. But if the adventure calls for such your DM may grant a spelljamming option right from the get-go, as early as 1st level. Spelljamming is also much more effective for transporting larger amounts of people and also transports cargo which the spells don't. Spelljamming is limited to where it can go, but there are ways around that.
Both spelljaming and planar spells are useful for transport but they have different purposes and availability.
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Spelljammers also have, or can easily have "holds" that allow for trade, something planeshift can only do at a much more reduced scale. Casting plane shift also allows the caster and up to 8 willing people. A spell jammer can use that hold space to transport many more willing warriors or unwilling prisoners.
These distinctions are sort of moot, unless you want to make your cosmology fuzzy, when your recognize the distinction between plane and world.. Plane shift shifts between planes. Spelljamming allows for travel among worlds that exist in the prime material plane. That's why you have dream of the blue veil. If plane shift allowed for travel among worlds, dream of the blue veil wouldn't need to exist as a spell slot solution.
Think of this: one can't "spell jam" from your game world to the fey wild or shadow fell, because as defined in the default lore both those places are "echo planes" mapped to your game world but in a different but very close plane of existence.
It's like physics vs metaphysics in some ways, moreso once Planescape becomes official content, if they stick to some of its original premises.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
so was just looking into this and theres a line in monsters of the multiverse that applies here
under the triton traits
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/motm/fantastical-races-continued#TritonTraits
Plane Shift and Spelljammers is precisely analogous to Teleport and sailing boats.
Different modes of travel can get you to the same place. In the real world, you'll notice that walking and driving are different modes of transportation that let you arrive at the same destination, with a variation in the level of arcanery involved. More arcane usually equals faster.
One of my homebrew worlds is flat (and infinite) - so, not a planet - and if you walk for long enough, you'll reach the outer planes. And for once, they're actually 'outer', since the physically surround the .. rest of reality.
Sometimes options are just plain bad. Just look at 3.5, or Pathfinder. So many bad options, the good ones drown in the deluge, and makes a worse game except for the tiny minority with the patience and attitude to sort through all that to find what works.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Personally, I’m not a fan of Spelljammer going through the Astral plane instead of the phlogiston. Spelljammer was a means to get from one crystal sphere to another without leaving the prime material plane. Traveling through the Astral opens up to going to other planes in your Spelljammer provided the portal in the Astral is big enough. Now it feels like Spelljammer and Planescape are the same thing. I shall remain using the older material for Spelljammer.
Notwithstanding the above, there is no such list of example sentences to be found. Unless the poster edited his post before I finished mine. Or after, at the case may eventually be.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I rather the game cater to more people by giving more options than catering to less people with less options. You do not have to use the option if you do not like it. Do not like it, do not buy it.
Most people do not need the patience and/or attitude to sort through a deluge of options, since most people do not buy every book. And for people who do buy every book, they want the variety of options.
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That's the argument, yes. Quantity over quality. Drown the masses in an endless flood of chinese plastic junk, and they'll be forever happy.
I understand the argument, and I genuinely disagree, to the point that I hope the world eventually learns. More options literally makes everything worse. And I can prove it. Sorta. Genuinely great things are drowned out by the marketing of utter worthless junk. Good music, real art, excellent wine, pick your choice - you cannot even find the good stuff anymore, because everything is a needle in a haystack of repetitive, high-calorie, mass-produced ... fluff.
Random example: Le Ragose. Italian wine maker. He's a bitter, angry man. I know this, because I met him, and he was bitter and angry. From his office, he had a view of the entire valley, vineyards stretching to the horison. He makes amarone. You may not know, but amarone can only be made from grapes grown at a certain hight above sea level. So he pointed down in the valley (well below the required level) and complained that those were all amarone vineyards. And that further, when those grapes were used up, they imported grapes from Macedonia to make more fake amarone.
And do you know why he was so bitter? A year later, I found his wine at a store back home. And he's doing it too. The wine I bought in a store in Denmark - in an identical bottle, same year, same brand, same everything - was not the same wine. He all but said so himself - 'when Rema1000 orders 100.000 bottles of amarone, you find a way to deliver, even at prices you cannot make amarone for'.
But I could buy the real amarone at his vineyard in Italy. But only there. Because he cannot produce enough of it to meet demand, so instead he bottles swill and sells it to stupid danes who don't know any better. Demeaning his product, his name, his family business. And I'm sure he hates it, intensely.
Not particularly related to Tasha's or Mordenkainen's. But the principle still applies: To avoid drowning in the deluge, you need to vomit out copious amounts yourself. Denmark is famous for quality furniture - but quality danish furniture is no longer built in Denmark. And that means that, over time, we'll lose that distinction. We'll be just another nation who designs furniture to be built by the chinese. The market for quality will have shrunk further, and more people will be buying Ikea. When I was young, we cared about quality of pickups, amplifiers, gold cables and plugs, speakers. Young people today cannot tell you the quality of the music they download, and it doesn't matter anyways because of the crap they use for playback. It makes me sad, really. Such a bland, hopeless world you're making for yourselves (I still care about the pickups and stuff). As you may surmise, my views on this go beyond the latest supplement =)
Never mind. I realise this is a minority view =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
not to get too roped into this, but just to note: 2nd and 3rd editions of dnd became hugely bogged down in fractally smaller and more nuanced options. you couldn't swing a mummified cat without stopping to have a table-wide debate whether it counts as a flail, lasso proficiency, alternate chain rule, improvised weapon, combat bandage triage specialist, or animal handling (desert). granted, this was before online databases with instant keyword look-up so now there appears to be space for this sort of thing. however, the intent behind 5e has been to step back and let the narrative handle a lot of things. fewer options in dnd doesn't mean less opportunity but rather less restriction.
having said that, "should we take the shuttle craft or just teleport?" doesn't seem like too many options yet.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
If people want to buy it and Wizards wants to fill that demand and sell it, there is nothing wrong with that. And you can have both quantity and quality. America literally has the largest and best air force in the world for example, although we are paying an arm and leg for it.
That is what the GM is for, to decide on the rules at the table.
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I’m actually no longer interested in Spelljammer, the 5e attempt at a revival absolutely killed it for me. All the information and crunch I needed was absent. Planescape I have tentative hopes for and it could work at any level (though I personally wouldn’t feel Planes Hopping was “legit” until around 8th level myself). You don’t need Plane Shift, just a portal and a planar hub.