Curious about this and talking with another player about it. So with sapping sting you can be knocked prone. It is a cantrip spell, and what he has done is make a multiclasses level 1 death domain cleric and a divine soul sorcerer (evil) as his build. Not with the death domain he gets the ability:
Reaper
At 1st level, the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
So with the reaper ability and twin spell with 2 groups of people within 5' for each other, can he use twin spell and basically strike 4 targets with the reaper ability and the twinned spell skill? The thing is the spells both mention targeting a second target, so is this another stacking issue or do they work independently?
This is what I am thinking, but he argues that the spells only strikes 2 targets when they are both in range of one another. Personally I feel that it is not meant to strike four targets if you can get two targets within range of the spell and then have a second target within 5' of the separate target. He argues that because it is in such a rare circumstance that this can happen because the spell originally does not target two separate targets, and that this is a power only (even though it says target two people with the spell) and has no effect on twin spell.
I am curious, do the D&D developers still do Sage Advice or has that completely fallen off now? Would like to hear them weigh in on this stuff once a month at least still to clean up poor wording and such.
5e's rules are deliberately ambiguous. The designers want people to come to their own conclusions.
If this player is pressing you and making a real nuisance of himself over this, how you handle that is up to you. With my DM Hat on, I'd be lenient and allow him to target three targets - the two that Twinned Spell lets him target, and a third 'bonus' target from Reaper. Twinned Spell is not two separate casts of a spell, it is a single spellcasting that manages to split the spell in half; he doesn't get two spells to Reaper. I would also let this guy know that I am being kind and ruling against my better interpretation of both Twinned Spell and Reaper, and that as a DM I do not appreciate it when people argue with me and give me grief over rulings. If he does it again maybe I'd change my mind.
Unfortunately Sage Advice hasn't been very helpful on this question. If you look up twinning dragon's breath, you'll see how strange it is. Jeremy Crawford has this to say in general -
Here's the test: is a spell capable of targeting more than one creature? If yes, the spell can't be twinned.
Many people assumed that, since Dragon's Breath only targets one person, you could twin it. But when asked about this spell in particular, he said that it could not be twinned because the person you cast it on could potentially breath on multiple creatures with it. It's one of the few times he gave a definitive "No" on a specific spell. And it's also one of the most confusing answers.
Going by Sage Advice, it looks like you could not Twin the spell cast with Reaper. Reaper says you can target two creatures. Mr Crawford says if it is capable of targeting two creatures at all, even if you don't, and even if it's in a very roundabout way, it can't be twinned.
That's probably the most official answer you could get for this case. You can play it however you want at your table of course. But if you are looking for some backup from an official source, I think you'll find a little in those tweets.
RAW, it doesn't work. If you apply Reaper first, then the cantrip is no longer a spell targeting only 1 creature, so you can't Twin it. If you Twin it first, then you are already targeting 2 creatures, so Reaper would just limit you from any 2nd target in range to a 2nd target within 5' of the 1st. This would also apply if you could somehow Twin the Reaper'd spell, because both features grant a 2nd target, not a additional (3rd in this case) target. You can stack up a bajillion "You can affect 2 targets with this spell" effects, and you'll still be limited to 2 targets, not a bajillion+1 targets.
But if you wanted to allow it to work on 3 targets, it shouldn't break the game. Burning limited Sorc Points & a Action on 1 of 3 Necro cantrips, each of which is save or suck, will rarely be the best use of thier turn. And if it gets out of hand, then the other side has done some scrying, & they know to not stand next to each other, negating Reaper.
Thanks all, will probably go with the effect of hitting 3 targets and not 4. It is not a very powerful cantrip to begin with and I do want to let him play like he was within reason. Will discuss it with him this weekend if I get a chance. Unfortunately working and can not make the session this week.
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Curious about this and talking with another player about it. So with sapping sting you can be knocked prone. It is a cantrip spell, and what he has done is make a multiclasses level 1 death domain cleric and a divine soul sorcerer (evil) as his build. Not with the death domain he gets the ability:
Reaper
At 1st level, the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
So with the reaper ability and twin spell with 2 groups of people within 5' for each other, can he use twin spell and basically strike 4 targets with the reaper ability and the twinned spell skill? The thing is the spells both mention targeting a second target, so is this another stacking issue or do they work independently?
No if the spell target more than one creature its not eligible for Twinned Spell.
This is what I am thinking, but he argues that the spells only strikes 2 targets when they are both in range of one another. Personally I feel that it is not meant to strike four targets if you can get two targets within range of the spell and then have a second target within 5' of the separate target. He argues that because it is in such a rare circumstance that this can happen because the spell originally does not target two separate targets, and that this is a power only (even though it says target two people with the spell) and has no effect on twin spell.
I am curious, do the D&D developers still do Sage Advice or has that completely fallen off now? Would like to hear them weigh in on this stuff once a month at least still to clean up poor wording and such.
5e's rules are deliberately ambiguous. The designers want people to come to their own conclusions.
If this player is pressing you and making a real nuisance of himself over this, how you handle that is up to you. With my DM Hat on, I'd be lenient and allow him to target three targets - the two that Twinned Spell lets him target, and a third 'bonus' target from Reaper. Twinned Spell is not two separate casts of a spell, it is a single spellcasting that manages to split the spell in half; he doesn't get two spells to Reaper. I would also let this guy know that I am being kind and ruling against my better interpretation of both Twinned Spell and Reaper, and that as a DM I do not appreciate it when people argue with me and give me grief over rulings. If he does it again maybe I'd change my mind.
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Unfortunately Sage Advice hasn't been very helpful on this question. If you look up twinning dragon's breath, you'll see how strange it is. Jeremy Crawford has this to say in general -
Here's the test: is a spell capable of targeting more than one creature? If yes, the spell can't be twinned.
Many people assumed that, since Dragon's Breath only targets one person, you could twin it. But when asked about this spell in particular, he said that it could not be twinned because the person you cast it on could potentially breath on multiple creatures with it. It's one of the few times he gave a definitive "No" on a specific spell. And it's also one of the most confusing answers.
Going by Sage Advice, it looks like you could not Twin the spell cast with Reaper. Reaper says you can target two creatures. Mr Crawford says if it is capable of targeting two creatures at all, even if you don't, and even if it's in a very roundabout way, it can't be twinned.
That's probably the most official answer you could get for this case. You can play it however you want at your table of course. But if you are looking for some backup from an official source, I think you'll find a little in those tweets.
RAW, it doesn't work. If you apply Reaper first, then the cantrip is no longer a spell targeting only 1 creature, so you can't Twin it. If you Twin it first, then you are already targeting 2 creatures, so Reaper would just limit you from any 2nd target in range to a 2nd target within 5' of the 1st. This would also apply if you could somehow Twin the Reaper'd spell, because both features grant a 2nd target, not a additional (3rd in this case) target. You can stack up a bajillion "You can affect 2 targets with this spell" effects, and you'll still be limited to 2 targets, not a bajillion+1 targets.
But if you wanted to allow it to work on 3 targets, it shouldn't break the game. Burning limited Sorc Points & a Action on 1 of 3 Necro cantrips, each of which is save or suck, will rarely be the best use of thier turn. And if it gets out of hand, then the other side has done some scrying, & they know to not stand next to each other, negating Reaper.
Thanks all, will probably go with the effect of hitting 3 targets and not 4. It is not a very powerful cantrip to begin with and I do want to let him play like he was within reason. Will discuss it with him this weekend if I get a chance. Unfortunately working and can not make the session this week.