Well, judging by the reaction, that might have been a mistake (intentionally leaking it) if true. They could have saved a lot of headaches by just doing a poll. The number of people canceling their subscriptions and orders, and 3rd party creators cutting ties already, and all the negative press, has cost them a good bit for some market research.
"WotC also gets the right to use any content that licensees create, whether commercial or non-commercial. Although this is couched in language to protect Wizards’ products from infringing on creators’ copyright, the document states that for any content created under the updated OGL, regardless of whether or not it is owned by the creator, Wizards will have a 'nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.'"
I really want to know how the underlined part will work. I give Bob permission to use my works in exactly and only one book, and that book also uses the OGL, so now Wizards somehow, without any permission from me much less my knowledge, now has more rights to my works than Bob did. How can Bob sign off on giving something to WotC that he doesn't even have?
If WotC did write this and leak it to see how badly people are going to react to it, that seems a pretty low blow to the community. This kind of dirty dealings are enough to make me stop supporting a company. Even if they walk it back this is making me think I may want to stop my subscription here and shake the dust off my feet.
There are plenty of less nefarious reasons to leak it if it was purposefully done. Maybe they're "playtesting" the idea and have been totally willing to trash the idea if backlash was too strong. Or maybe they leaked a really strict version to soften the blow when a more reasonable document is released. Not exactly honest, but well within the limits of what most self-identifying "good" D&D parties would do.
I don't know. I don't really have a great feeling about all this, but we really should hold our judgement and wait to see what shakes out. Getting this worked up over speculation and rumors is just not productive in any sense of the word. Clearly the public response to the leak has been overwhelmingly negative, and they have to be aware of that. Ball's in their court now.
what concerns me most is hasbro/wizards' complete silence on the matter. it's been about a workweek since the leak at a time when they were clearly interested in reassuring players about what the OGL update meant. many at wizards have seen the community reaction and they've probably had time to dissect and discuss it internally.
they've gotten letters from the legal representatives of 3pps, they've been reached out to for comment by media outlets, people have started pulling subscriptions to ddb and vtts already, and you'd think that if there wasn't substantial truth to the leaked document that the first thing wizards would be doing is denying it, or maybe reassuring players that it was a much earlier version of the document and that the 'offending' portions have been changed
but there's been nothing. not an article on ddb, not a response to any of the press who've reached out, not a tweet, not even a whisper of what's going on internally right now. silence so thick you could cut it with a dagger, you could hear the shallowest of breaths.
If WotC did write this and leak it to see how badly people are going to react to it, that seems a pretty low blow to the community. This kind of dirty dealings are enough to make me stop supporting a company. Even if they walk it back this is making me think I may want to stop my subscription here and shake the dust off my feet.
There are plenty of less nefarious reasons to leak it if it was purposefully done. Maybe they're "playtesting" the idea and have been totally willing to trash the idea if backlash was too strong. Or maybe they leaked a really strict version to soften the blow when a more reasonable document is released. Not exactly honest, but well within the limits of what most self-identifying "good" D&D parties would do.
I don't know. I don't really have a great feeling about all this, but we really should hold our judgement and wait to see what shakes out. Getting this worked up over speculation and rumors is just not productive in any sense of the word. Clearly the public response to the leak has been overwhelmingly negative, and they have to be aware of that. Ball's in their court now.
what concerns me most is hasbro/wizards' complete silence on the matter. it's been about a workweek since the leak at a time when they were clearly interested in reassuring players about what the OGL update meant. many at wizards have seen the community reaction and they've probably had time to dissect and discuss it internally.
they've gotten letters from the legal representatives of 3pps, they've been reached out to for comment by media outlets, people have started pulling subscriptions to ddb and vtts already, and you'd think that if there wasn't substantial truth to the leaked document that the first thing wizards would be doing is denying it, or maybe reassuring players that it was a much earlier version of the document and that the 'offending' portions have been changed
but there's been nothing. not an article on ddb, not a response to any of the press who've reached out, not a tweet, not even a whisper of what's going on internally right now. silence so thick you could cut it with a dagger, you could hear the shallowest of breaths.
it has been 3 days since the first youtube video. 2 days since the article was published.
I think everyone needs to be really careful about making statements about what is and isn't legal or acceptable if this new license is released in its currently leaked form.
It's pretty clear that no one gets to "opt into" or choose this license -- IF you've published or henceforth publish content under OGL 1.0a, your content may no longer be published unless and until you "accept" the new license. That's not a choice.
The risk here is people take bad/incorrect advice and invest their time, sweat and tears to create and publish something special only for WotC to steal it away from them because they didn't understand.
If we're wrong or the "draft" license is never released, then great, but there is good reason for the community to be pulling back on the reins right now.
I think everyone needs to be really careful about making statements about what is and isn't legal or acceptable if this new license is released in its currently leaked form.
Considering the current legal climate we're in, we won't know what is or isn't legal until not only we get the official document, but until a judge rules in whatever legal challenges may or may not arise.
Which means creators, including small independent creators, who depend on OGL will have to invest even more into defending their personal intellectual property in expensive court battles if WotC decided to proceed with this predatory license. Hasbro (and WotC) has the resources to fight such battles. Many creators do not.
I don't believe anyone will be creating anymore DnD content if WoTC can just use it at their discretion.
They could be been less greedy. Even 5% (instead of 25% of Gross income) would probably have been acceptable, with an option to use the creators content for a fee.
Congratulations Wizards. I know I'll be switching games.
I know how the OGL 1.1 has effected me. It has meant that: 1) I have immediately shelved any idea of making third party content for D&D. 2) I have ceased making content on D&D Beyond preparatory to that third party content. 3) As a personal decision, as I don't believe in funding predatory businesses, I will not be buying any D&D content going forward until such time as plans for an OGL 1.1 is shelved, or the OGL 1.1 is published and makes it clear that WotC/Hasbro makes not automatic claim to a free license and/or irrevocable license to my work; charges fees for profitable works on gross profits rather than net profits; if revocable, grandfathers existing clauses in for already published works; and if revocable, gives reasonable notice (at least 6 months) of revocation.
Unless this issue is resolved quickly, I will also be trying to persuade the gaming group with which I am involved to move to a new system; or at worst, stick only with currently published 5e products going forward.
It doesn't really matter what draft was seen. The fact that such ridiculous clauses were included in the draft means we should be kicking up a stink and making it clear in no uncertain terms that if the offending clauses (or anything like them) are in the final version, D&D is a dead game to us.
Indeed, that WotC appears to even be considering going this direction, even if the final published license is scaled back, has opened my eyes to the kind of people running the brand.
It will take a complete reversal and a major apology from Wizards for me to consider spending another dime on WotC published content. There are so many other great games to play and support.
If the OneD&D OGL 1.1 remains as it was leaked, which I doubt it will due to the shear amount of attention and speculation even major outlets are beginning to weigh in on, the OneD&D OGL 1.1 will be the iceberg that sinks the titanic D&D brand.
WotC who is the captain of the D&D ship might listen to the warnings, though signs point to them following the Hasbro/investor digital roadmap GPS at full speed. Don't worry, I'm sure the ship is insured.
Can Wotc use the OGL 1.1 to revoke the former OGL 1.0/OGL 1.0a, the lawyers that put them together may very well have deliberately left critical terminology out for the day Hasbro decides to pull the plug.
Will Wotc and Hasbro avoid disaster by giving the D&D community an OGL that could limit what the former OGL 1.0/1.0a can produce as far as content is concerned and leave the OGL's available under the strict term that they [ the OGL 1.0/1.0a versions] can only produce content in ePub/PDF format for the versions of the rules system the OGL's were created for?
Not sure, but the minute I start to hear someone say "I'll never let you go jack" to me, I will be crafting a raft with a volleyball and a lawn chair eating popcorn watching the aftermath of this all. ;)
There are plenty of less nefarious reasons to leak it if it was purposefully done. Maybe they're "playtesting" the idea and have been totally willing to trash the idea if backlash was too strong. Or maybe they leaked a really strict version to soften the blow when a more reasonable document is released. Not exactly honest, but well within the limits of what most self-identifying "good" D&D parties would do.
Yeah, thes ideas have occurred to me, and no, they are not less nefarious. There is villainy, and there is cold, calculated villainy. This is the latter.
I know how the OGL 1.1 has effected me. It has meant that: 1) I have immediately shelved any idea of making third party content for D&D. 2) I have ceased making content on D&D Beyond preparatory to that third party content. 3) As a personal decision, as I don't believe in funding predatory businesses, I will not be buying any D&D content going forward until such time as plans for an OGL 1.1 is shelved, or the OGL 1.1 is published and makes it clear that WotC/Hasbro makes not automatic claim to a free license and/or irrevocable license to my work; charges fees for profitable works on gross profits rather than net profits; if revocable, grandfathers existing clauses in for already published works; and if revocable, gives reasonable notice (at least 6 months) of revocation.
Unless this issue is resolved quickly, I will also be trying to persuade the gaming group with which I am involved to move to a new system; or at worst, stick only with currently published 5e products going forward.
The moment you started making it on DndB it became theirs. As published in TOS update when DndB got bought out by hasbro/WotC.
This really feels like they've learned absolutely no lessons from 4E. Or even 5E.
Maybe they've been watching the leadership at WB/DC and think for some reason that's the model they want to emulate.
I would suspect WotC may have learned something (or at least the D&D arm of it, given how things have been run over the last decade) but Hasbro doesn't really give a crap.
The issue I expect is D&D has become enough of a cash cow for the higher up Hasbro bean counters to now take notice and want to put their fingers in the pie. While they really don't understand the market or the way it really rises and grows as a group effort. Given that it appears Kickstarter has been in what looks like some of the early discussions with them means Hasbro as seen the few multi-million dollar runs and now wants some of that without realizing (or despite it) that most of that cash goes into production and the creators don't really see that much at the end of it.
We may not have clarity on whether this leak is the final plan WOTC intends to put into place, but the mass deletion of relevant threads and the company's silence is highly telling. Thank you for sharing this person's perspective.
For everyone asking if this is true, TSR had very similar behavior in the past. They aggressively went after 3rd party developers for their perceived part of the pie. This is part of what drove them to being in a position that they really needed WotC to buy them. The original OGL came out of a need to re-establish themselves in the space and come across as friendly vendors. This enabled them to gain the good will of the community at that time. Hasbro is not paying attention to the lessons of the past and does not understand that becoming this toxic will drive users away. Even if they completely back down at this time, this is going to drive innovation in this space and content creators will move forward with separating themselves from Hasbro. Don't just pursue Hasbro not to do this but pursue those whose content you engage with to give you new options to try and reviews of those options. That will impact Hasbro much more than just asking them not to.
I have hardly ever posted on this forum, (and I probably won't ever again) but this topic has prompted me.
I have been playing D&D in all of its forms since 1978. I've bought the core books for every edition, (from before there was a distinction between "basic" and "advanced"to 5e) which are still sitting on the shelves around my computer. I still roleplay once a week, and have been for 45 years now, so I've seen all the evolutions and changes to the game that I love, and that has so influenced who I am as a person over those decades.
I completely agree with the sentiments expressed here in that we really don't know enough yet to make a full judgment. But, Kickstarter's "bargain" does give telling weight to at least some of the finality of v1.1, or at least almost realized intent, (if WotC does bow to public pressure.)
i watched as TSR ("They Sue Regularly") drive D&D almost to extinction. I cheered as WotC rescued the brand. I was heartened by the idea that "gamers" were taking over the future life of D&D, and they were doing it for "gamers." This was further reinforced by the issuance of the OGL. I watched and rejoiced (and was even mildly stunned) as D&D went from a 'basement game for nerds' (like me) to a popular phenomenon.
But along the way, Hasbro got involved. First as kindof a disinterested third-party. But once D&D became the popular hit that it is now, (with the attendant increase in profitability) then the disinterest became keen interest.
I remember predicting when it was announced that Hasbro bought WotC that the OGL wouldn't survive, because the corp bean counters and shareholders hate with a living passion any penny that doesn't get directed to their profit sheet. Regardless of whether or not D&D as a brand was making lots of money, they would want it ALL.
And here we are.
I stopped playing D&D about a year ago, for a variety of reasons. But I also just cancelled my DnDBeyond subscription, again for a variety of reasons, (not the least of which was why spend money on a resource that I wasn't utilizing) but the 'straw that broke the camel's back" was the leaked 1.1. The intent, if not the letter, of the revision was clear, and I just can't support the corporation behind it any more. I still have all of my books, and they still play the very same way they always did. I will continue to play them, (at some point) and I will continue to support 3rd party (and even non-d20 systems) but Hasbro won't get any more of my money. (Interestingly enough, when I cancelled my subscription, I lost access to all of the digital books I purchased on DnDBeyond. Funny. I still have every-single-one of the physical books I purchased, and every single PDF I've bought from 3rd party publishers. Only here did I lose my books because I don't want to play in their private sandbox any more. Be careful who and how you give your money to folks.)
Love it, hate it, disagree or not, it's done. Each has to make their own decision. Mine's been made.
Happy gaming to all of you, regardless of which system you use.
Well, judging by the reaction, that might have been a mistake (intentionally leaking it) if true. They could have saved a lot of headaches by just doing a poll. The number of people canceling their subscriptions and orders, and 3rd party creators cutting ties already, and all the negative press, has cost them a good bit for some market research.
I really want to know how the underlined part will work. I give Bob permission to use my works in exactly and only one book, and that book also uses the OGL, so now Wizards somehow, without any permission from me much less my knowledge, now has more rights to my works than Bob did. How can Bob sign off on giving something to WotC that he doesn't even have?
what concerns me most is hasbro/wizards' complete silence on the matter. it's been about a workweek since the leak at a time when they were clearly interested in reassuring players about what the OGL update meant. many at wizards have seen the community reaction and they've probably had time to dissect and discuss it internally.
they've gotten letters from the legal representatives of 3pps, they've been reached out to for comment by media outlets, people have started pulling subscriptions to ddb and vtts already, and you'd think that if there wasn't substantial truth to the leaked document that the first thing wizards would be doing is denying it, or maybe reassuring players that it was a much earlier version of the document and that the 'offending' portions have been changed
but there's been nothing. not an article on ddb, not a response to any of the press who've reached out, not a tweet, not even a whisper of what's going on internally right now. silence so thick you could cut it with a dagger, you could hear the shallowest of breaths.
it has been 3 days since the first youtube video. 2 days since the article was published.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think everyone needs to be really careful about making statements about what is and isn't legal or acceptable if this new license is released in its currently leaked form.
It's pretty clear that no one gets to "opt into" or choose this license -- IF you've published or henceforth publish content under OGL 1.0a, your content may no longer be published unless and until you "accept" the new license. That's not a choice.
The risk here is people take bad/incorrect advice and invest their time, sweat and tears to create and publish something special only for WotC to steal it away from them because they didn't understand.
If we're wrong or the "draft" license is never released, then great, but there is good reason for the community to be pulling back on the reins right now.
Considering the current legal climate we're in, we won't know what is or isn't legal until not only we get the official document, but until a judge rules in whatever legal challenges may or may not arise.
Which means creators, including small independent creators, who depend on OGL will have to invest even more into defending their personal intellectual property in expensive court battles if WotC decided to proceed with this predatory license. Hasbro (and WotC) has the resources to fight such battles. Many creators do not.
This is very concerning. Please, don't be evil, wotc/hasbro.
This really feels like they've learned absolutely no lessons from 4E. Or even 5E.
Maybe they've been watching the leadership at WB/DC and think for some reason that's the model they want to emulate.
I don't believe anyone will be creating anymore DnD content if WoTC can just use it at their discretion.
They could be been less greedy. Even 5% (instead of 25% of Gross income) would probably have been acceptable, with an option to use the creators content for a fee.
Congratulations Wizards. I know I'll be switching games.
I know how the OGL 1.1 has effected me. It has meant that:
1) I have immediately shelved any idea of making third party content for D&D.
2) I have ceased making content on D&D Beyond preparatory to that third party content.
3) As a personal decision, as I don't believe in funding predatory businesses, I will not be buying any D&D content going forward until such time as plans for an OGL 1.1 is shelved, or
the OGL 1.1 is published and makes it clear that WotC/Hasbro makes not automatic claim to a free license and/or irrevocable license to my work; charges fees for profitable works on gross profits rather than net profits; if revocable, grandfathers existing clauses in for already published works; and if revocable, gives reasonable notice (at least 6 months) of revocation.
Unless this issue is resolved quickly, I will also be trying to persuade the gaming group with which I am involved to move to a new system; or at worst, stick only with currently published 5e products going forward.
It doesn't really matter what draft was seen. The fact that such ridiculous clauses were included in the draft means we should be kicking up a stink and making it clear in no uncertain terms that if the offending clauses (or anything like them) are in the final version, D&D is a dead game to us.
Indeed, that WotC appears to even be considering going this direction, even if the final published license is scaled back, has opened my eyes to the kind of people running the brand.
It will take a complete reversal and a major apology from Wizards for me to consider spending another dime on WotC published content. There are so many other great games to play and support.
If the OneD&D OGL 1.1 remains as it was leaked, which I doubt it will due to the shear amount of attention and speculation even major outlets are beginning to weigh in on, the OneD&D OGL 1.1 will be the iceberg that sinks the titanic D&D brand.
WotC who is the captain of the D&D ship might listen to the warnings, though signs point to them following the Hasbro/investor digital roadmap GPS at full speed. Don't worry, I'm sure the ship is insured.
Can Wotc use the OGL 1.1 to revoke the former OGL 1.0/OGL 1.0a, the lawyers that put them together may very well have deliberately left critical terminology out for the day Hasbro decides to pull the plug.
Will Wotc and Hasbro avoid disaster by giving the D&D community an OGL that could limit what the former OGL 1.0/1.0a can produce as far as content is concerned and leave the OGL's available under the strict term that they [ the OGL 1.0/1.0a versions] can only produce content in ePub/PDF format for the versions of the rules system the OGL's were created for?
Not sure, but the minute I start to hear someone say "I'll never let you go jack" to me, I will be crafting a raft with a volleyball and a lawn chair eating popcorn watching the aftermath of this all. ;)
Yeah, thes ideas have occurred to me, and no, they are not less nefarious. There is villainy, and there is cold, calculated villainy. This is the latter.
The moment you started making it on DndB it became theirs. As published in TOS update when DndB got bought out by hasbro/WotC.
I would suspect WotC may have learned something (or at least the D&D arm of it, given how things have been run over the last decade) but Hasbro doesn't really give a crap.
The issue I expect is D&D has become enough of a cash cow for the higher up Hasbro bean counters to now take notice and want to put their fingers in the pie. While they really don't understand the market or the way it really rises and grows as a group effort.
Given that it appears Kickstarter has been in what looks like some of the early discussions with them means Hasbro as seen the few multi-million dollar runs and now wants some of that without realizing (or despite it) that most of that cash goes into production and the creators don't really see that much at the end of it.
- Loswaith
We may not have clarity on whether this leak is the final plan WOTC intends to put into place, but the mass deletion of relevant threads and the company's silence is highly telling. Thank you for sharing this person's perspective.
For everyone asking if this is true, TSR had very similar behavior in the past. They aggressively went after 3rd party developers for their perceived part of the pie. This is part of what drove them to being in a position that they really needed WotC to buy them. The original OGL came out of a need to re-establish themselves in the space and come across as friendly vendors. This enabled them to gain the good will of the community at that time. Hasbro is not paying attention to the lessons of the past and does not understand that becoming this toxic will drive users away. Even if they completely back down at this time, this is going to drive innovation in this space and content creators will move forward with separating themselves from Hasbro. Don't just pursue Hasbro not to do this but pursue those whose content you engage with to give you new options to try and reviews of those options. That will impact Hasbro much more than just asking them not to.
I have hardly ever posted on this forum, (and I probably won't ever again) but this topic has prompted me.
I have been playing D&D in all of its forms since 1978. I've bought the core books for every edition, (from before there was a distinction between "basic" and "advanced"to 5e) which are still sitting on the shelves around my computer. I still roleplay once a week, and have been for 45 years now, so I've seen all the evolutions and changes to the game that I love, and that has so influenced who I am as a person over those decades.
I completely agree with the sentiments expressed here in that we really don't know enough yet to make a full judgment. But, Kickstarter's "bargain" does give telling weight to at least some of the finality of v1.1, or at least almost realized intent, (if WotC does bow to public pressure.)
i watched as TSR ("They Sue Regularly") drive D&D almost to extinction. I cheered as WotC rescued the brand. I was heartened by the idea that "gamers" were taking over the future life of D&D, and they were doing it for "gamers." This was further reinforced by the issuance of the OGL. I watched and rejoiced (and was even mildly stunned) as D&D went from a 'basement game for nerds' (like me) to a popular phenomenon.
But along the way, Hasbro got involved. First as kindof a disinterested third-party. But once D&D became the popular hit that it is now, (with the attendant increase in profitability) then the disinterest became keen interest.
I remember predicting when it was announced that Hasbro bought WotC that the OGL wouldn't survive, because the corp bean counters and shareholders hate with a living passion any penny that doesn't get directed to their profit sheet. Regardless of whether or not D&D as a brand was making lots of money, they would want it ALL.
And here we are.
I stopped playing D&D about a year ago, for a variety of reasons. But I also just cancelled my DnDBeyond subscription, again for a variety of reasons, (not the least of which was why spend money on a resource that I wasn't utilizing) but the 'straw that broke the camel's back" was the leaked 1.1. The intent, if not the letter, of the revision was clear, and I just can't support the corporation behind it any more. I still have all of my books, and they still play the very same way they always did. I will continue to play them, (at some point) and I will continue to support 3rd party (and even non-d20 systems) but Hasbro won't get any more of my money. (Interestingly enough, when I cancelled my subscription, I lost access to all of the digital books I purchased on DnDBeyond. Funny. I still have every-single-one of the physical books I purchased, and every single PDF I've bought from 3rd party publishers. Only here did I lose my books because I don't want to play in their private sandbox any more. Be careful who and how you give your money to folks.)
Love it, hate it, disagree or not, it's done. Each has to make their own decision. Mine's been made.
Happy gaming to all of you, regardless of which system you use.