Now personally, I am a subscriber here at DNDB. And I love it. I love being here. But the business model WoTC are going with here means DNDB will become meaningless to me. Long story short, I'm pissed about that as I spent $ here. I'm the damn customer!
Anyho', if I don't see an official announcement by 5pm Seattle time tomorrow, I will cancel my DNDB account.
Hasbro is actually doing quite well in the last month /days on the stock markets. It seams like investors do not care about a minor upset in customer satisfaction.
I checked their stock price - look at the past year or two, there is a tiny tip upwards over the past month, but overall it is much lower now.
Yeah, but this is disingenious to state it like that. Over the past 6 months, their stock is the highest its been. Hasbro has made other statements prior to 2023 that has affected them, but in current day terms it's non-issue. You can take that to mean that from a shareholder perspective they don't see the drama with the OGL as being harmful.
Honestly, I kind of agree with that.
Theres a lot of engagement on twitter, reddit, this website etc.
There is also chatter from Thursday/Friday on major financial news sites on the OGL scandal. Considering Monday is an off day for the market, and Wotc waited till Friday to release a Cynthia Williams style response [ no surprise there, definitely her style of 'sorrry we got caught, now will people quiet down because we don't care to hear it, and investors might get spooked'], the true financial hit of this scandal might show some indication Tuesday, but full 'tale of the tape' won't fully be seen till 1st quarter financial reports hit in April.
Wotc definitely took a critical hit, Thursdays 'unsubathon/exodus' crashed DDB's site with 5 figure CS tickets [ no doubt someone kicked the server breakers to prevent a meltdown, and keep the numbers from 6 digit figures.] and the response didn't help.
D&D the game will itself move on, but Wotc may have massively wounded its bottom line.
D&D the game will itself move on, but Wotc may have massively wounded its bottom line.
Well, yea. Everyone (in the OGL community) is saying that WoTC are ignoring the communities value to D&D. Investors are wondering if there IS value to D&D.
Hope the movie does well? Just trying to be constructive...
When talking about the economic downside for WOTC and Hasbro, let's remember they are garnering ill will as they build to launch a new edition which is always a good jumping off point for a gamer. They have a movie they may have just damaged. Their VTT will probably take a hit. This is people in suits and ties who look at the size of the market and think that dollars going to third parties would be going to them which I don't think is the case. They don't produce enough official material. They don't incur the costs of the myriad third party failures that I'm sure they aren't bothering to calculate. They don't get there is a multiplier effect. Their best outcome with this unenlightened vision they have, is to get a larger percentage of a smaller money pool. They are banking on this VTT and I think they assume most everyone on DnD Beyond is interested in VTT. I'm not. I'm a FTF player. My group played online during the peak of Covid restrictions but that's it. And, since we are pen and paper players, we can get by with Google Meet if we have to. We don't need all the bells and whistles and I'm rather skeptical that streamlining DnD rules just so it's easier to program for a VTT is going to provide me with the best rules set for my FTF games.
EDIT; Watching some of this guy, and he's adorable, I get what he's saying. And I noted how, yea, he's right that D&D through AD&D were all backwards compatible. Some new stuff, but still the same game.
Too bad 6e will screw everyone.
Nah, you're cool, but the "death of D&D" triggered me to drop that bit, just for like I said, entertainment. Hope and light! Cackle!
D&D the game will itself move on, but Wotc may have massively wounded its bottom line.
Well, yea. Everyone (in the OGL community) is saying that WoTC are ignoring the communities value to D&D. Investors are wondering if there IS value to D&D.
Hope the movie does well? Just trying to be constructive...
Long term, moneys on the brand. Short term, with a movie at the end of Q1 and speculation on how any game license Wotc will release be publicly perceived and electron microscopically picked apart if that release is done before the end of said Q1, investors will be making calls.
That said, will Wotc wait till the movie releases to see how well it does to wait to release GL2.0, or do investors force an earlier than wanted release to ensure volatility does not push prices and profits into the toilet?
"Never put profits before people, because people are the profits that keep the bills paid. "
Yea, imagine your an investor. You know, if this were a new company championing their brand, I'd wish them well. But here, these guys and gals are just pirating one.
The new OGL 2.0 is designed to turn WoTC into a sort of Marvel comics company. I hear it's a popular corporate model, and it's all about legal ownership. Where they own an IP and they can create products that sell because of the brand. Toys, minis, and especially digital content, video games, DNDB, VTTs, and AND no one else. Period. Now, they have to make the brand popular enough one needs to sell, well, like Marvel does. Hey, good luck on betting the popularity of the new D&D movie and tv show might produce all that IP cash. And thus investors invest and make the company rich, yay! Oh but the core rules and adventures exist only to maintain the IP.
Hasbro and Wizards are counting their eggs before they hatched. Hasbro is addicted to Hollywood money and has made Hasbro billions with their evergreen IP Transformers. They're so addicted that they've thrown every IP they have at the wall to see what sticks in Hollywood like Battleship and GI Joe. They'll beat an IP horse to death to squeeze every possible dollar out of it like Monopoly the game with over 300 versions released today. Hasbro and Wizards are just itching for Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves to come out. It honestly looks like it'll be quite profitable and before this OGL deal pretty much everyone in the Hobby would have seen it. Hasbro is looking at what a Post Hollywood Hit D&D looks like and they're consolidating to try and are loading the shotgun with a ten watered down sequels to fire off if there's opportunity to make money. I'm 100% sure there have been board meetings with D&D but the & is replaced with a $. Sure its about subs, sure its about 3rd party profits, but its also about Hasbro ready and waiting to pimp out Wizards to the big screen because it sees payday.
I'm pretty surprised that Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves hasn't been mentioned more in this OGL conversation. Release date: March 31, 2023 and Hasbro and Wizards are extremely pumped for it. I know Subs is hitting them hard, but I think they'd be more scared if their movie's performance was in question.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"You canceled your subscription on 01/14/2023."
(1) Our job is to be good stewards of the game: Wrong. We are the stewards of the game. You print books.
(2) the OGL exists for the benefit of the fans: Wrong. The OGL exists to benefit Wizards. 3rd party Creators have made your game what it is today.
The new OGL 2.0 is designed to turn WoTC into a sort of Marvel comics company. I hear it's a popular corporate model, and it's all about legal ownership. Where they own an IP and they can create products that sell because of the brand. Toys, minis, and especially digital content, video games, DNDB, VTTs, and AND no one else. Period. Now, they have to make the brand popular enough one needs to sell, well, like Marvel does. Hey, good luck on betting the popularity of the new D&D movie and tv show might produce all that IP cash. And thus investors invest and make the company rich, yay! Oh but the core rules and adventures exist only to maintain the IP.
Hasbro and Wizards are counting their eggs before they hatched. Hasbro is addicted to Hollywood money and has made Hasbro billions with their evergreen IP Transformers. They're so addicted that they've thrown every IP they have at the wall to see what sticks in Hollywood like Battleship and GI Joe. They'll beat an IP horse to death to squeeze every possible dollar out of it like Monopoly the game with over 300 versions released today. Hasbro and Wizards are just itching for Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves to come out. It honestly looks like it'll be quite profitable and before this OGL deal pretty much everyone in the Hobby would have seen it. Hasbro is looking at what a Post Hollywood Hit D&D looks like and they're consolidating to try and are loading the shotgun with a ten watered down sequels to fire off if there's opportunity to make money. I'm 100% sure there have been board meetings with D&D but the & is replaced with a $. Sure its about subs, sure its about 3rd party profits, but its also about Hasbro ready and waiting to pimp out Wizards to the big screen because it sees payday.
I'm pretty surprised that Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves hasn't been mentioned more in this OGL conversation. Release date: March 31, 2023 and Hasbro and Wizards are extremely pumped for it. I know Subs is hitting them hard, but I think they'd be more scared if their movie's performance was in question.
While the budget and release competition does not seem like a true blockbuster would be possible still probably only a minor part of the potential viewers will be players, let alone players keeping up with the news and having a risk/chance to make a decision influenced by the crisis. Yes, I won't spend any money on the movie unless this is resolved by a true 1.0b. But I have no delusions about being able to drum up a relevant boycot. Even if Critical Role would come out against it (probably contractually impossible) our voices would be drowned in the movies crowds. That is not an important component of the protest. But as I wrote, I won't put money at it.
D&D will be influenced against meaningless bloating and, while being restricted in size by justified backlash to their appalling behaviors, they will retain some leanness while growing in strength. There will be more competition and competitors will have strengths D&D does not have.
This is the kind of thing that historically happened after D&D creators arguably went mentally awol in their creation of 4e. Pathfinder was created on the basis of earlier content without which 5e, with its current cohesion, might never have been born.
Other creators will develop and improve great rival products and I hope they do well. The WotC hierarchy deserves a kick in the teeth. This, however, also has the potential to retain and even increase their focus on the need for solid game development. Sure, some of those developers may, like many of us, be brokenhearted. However, for WotC, their contributions will be more vital than ever. WotC won't just need to produce products that are marketable but will need to compete with the appeals of increasingly viable competitors.
The D&D brand has been rightly shamed and embarrassed. We've all lost. Expectations, however, have been brought into focus and there is a future where we win and D&D can be part of it, albeit without my support.
Hasbro is actually doing quite well in the last month /days on the stock markets. It seams like investors do not care about a minor upset in customer satisfaction.
I checked their stock price - look at the past year or two, there is a tiny tip upwards over the past month, but overall it is much lower now.
Yeah, but this is disingenious to state it like that. Over the past 6 months, their stock is the highest its been. Hasbro has made other statements prior to 2023 that has affected them, but in current day terms it's non-issue. You can take that to mean that from a shareholder perspective they don't see the drama with the OGL as being harmful.
D&D is not going to die. It will have moments of better or worse reception in the public, but it will always exist in some way or another. This OGL issue may cause the brand to suffer, to tremble, but it is not going to fall. Now, yes, if a competitor takes the opportunity to launch a better product, with abundant third-party content, and two or three famous influencers give their support, the damage to D&D and WoTC will be great. A few months ago something like this seemed very difficult, but now they have made it very easy.
- The brand image of WoTC is on the ground. - Competitors have a common cause (for now) to ally. - Those who establish themselves as champions of the cause will see their brand image strengthened. - Almost no third party is going to trust WoTC and its new OGL (or the license that they negotiate given the case). Goodman is the only case that comes to mind of third parties that might continue to produce for D&D.
It's the perfect breeding ground for D&D to fall on its face. But he won't die, that's for sure.
While we're on the topic, the movie looks great so far, and I for one am excited to watch it. The CGI looks incredible and the setting is awesome. My only worry is that the writing might end up being crap. The movie has the potential to be either really, really good, or to be a repeat of the 2000 movie.
While we're on the topic, the movie looks great so far, and I for one am excited to watch it. The CGI looks incredible and the setting is awesome. My only worry is that the writing might end up being crap. The movie has the potential to be either really, really good, or to be a repeat of the 2000 movie.
Yep, I'll also try to see it - on a ticket for a different movie.
I learned PF2e in 20 minutes yesterday. Amazingly some of the rules differences actually work better with my table rules. Foundry and Roll20 and Startplaying.games are teaming up to give away PF2 core rules to any GM who runs a "Learn to Play" session between now and the end of February. Everyone is talking about PF2 and other systems. How about Mork Borg, that's really cool too.
Of course, I still have my AD&D books on the shelf right behind me, and I will be taking them to Gary Con to play old school D&D in March.
D&D will never die, but WotC can, whatever. Hope and Light!
While we're on the topic, the movie looks great so far, and I for one am excited to watch it. The CGI looks incredible and the setting is awesome. My only worry is that the writing might end up being crap. The movie has the potential to be either really, really good, or to be a repeat of the 2000 movie.
It doesn't look great to me. For one thing, Chris Pine is in it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Very coolio post my dude. :)
Now personally, I am a subscriber here at DNDB. And I love it. I love being here. But the business model WoTC are going with here means DNDB will become meaningless to me. Long story short, I'm pissed about that as I spent $ here. I'm the damn customer!
Anyho', if I don't see an official announcement by 5pm Seattle time tomorrow, I will cancel my DNDB account.
There is also chatter from Thursday/Friday on major financial news sites on the OGL scandal. Considering Monday is an off day for the market, and Wotc waited till Friday to release a Cynthia Williams style response [ no surprise there, definitely her style of 'sorrry we got caught, now will people quiet down because we don't care to hear it, and investors might get spooked'], the true financial hit of this scandal might show some indication Tuesday, but full 'tale of the tape' won't fully be seen till 1st quarter financial reports hit in April.
Wotc definitely took a critical hit, Thursdays 'unsubathon/exodus' crashed DDB's site with 5 figure CS tickets [ no doubt someone kicked the server breakers to prevent a meltdown, and keep the numbers from 6 digit figures.] and the response didn't help.
D&D the game will itself move on, but Wotc may have massively wounded its bottom line.
Well, yea. Everyone (in the OGL community) is saying that WoTC are ignoring the communities value to D&D. Investors are wondering if there IS value to D&D.
Hope the movie does well? Just trying to be constructive...
When talking about the economic downside for WOTC and Hasbro, let's remember they are garnering ill will as they build to launch a new edition which is always a good jumping off point for a gamer. They have a movie they may have just damaged. Their VTT will probably take a hit. This is people in suits and ties who look at the size of the market and think that dollars going to third parties would be going to them which I don't think is the case. They don't produce enough official material. They don't incur the costs of the myriad third party failures that I'm sure they aren't bothering to calculate. They don't get there is a multiplier effect. Their best outcome with this unenlightened vision they have, is to get a larger percentage of a smaller money pool. They are banking on this VTT and I think they assume most everyone on DnD Beyond is interested in VTT. I'm not. I'm a FTF player. My group played online during the peak of Covid restrictions but that's it. And, since we are pen and paper players, we can get by with Google Meet if we have to. We don't need all the bells and whistles and I'm rather skeptical that streamlining DnD rules just so it's easier to program for a VTT is going to provide me with the best rules set for my FTF games.
Yea, they did hire 300 programmers. Their VTT is based on the open source Unreal Engine.
Sorta ironic that.
Nah, you're cool, but the "death of D&D" triggered me to drop that bit, just for like I said, entertainment.
Hope and light! Cackle!
Ah, no worries :)
Long term, moneys on the brand. Short term, with a movie at the end of Q1 and speculation on how any game license Wotc will release be publicly perceived and electron microscopically picked apart if that release is done before the end of said Q1, investors will be making calls.
That said, will Wotc wait till the movie releases to see how well it does to wait to release GL2.0, or do investors force an earlier than wanted release to ensure volatility does not push prices and profits into the toilet?
"Never put profits before people, because people are the profits that keep the bills paid. "
Yea, imagine your an investor. You know, if this were a new company championing their brand, I'd wish them well. But here, these guys and gals are just pirating one.
Hasbro and Wizards are counting their eggs before they hatched. Hasbro is addicted to Hollywood money and has made Hasbro billions with their evergreen IP Transformers. They're so addicted that they've thrown every IP they have at the wall to see what sticks in Hollywood like Battleship and GI Joe. They'll beat an IP horse to death to squeeze every possible dollar out of it like Monopoly the game with over 300 versions released today. Hasbro and Wizards are just itching for Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves to come out. It honestly looks like it'll be quite profitable and before this OGL deal pretty much everyone in the Hobby would have seen it. Hasbro is looking at what a Post Hollywood Hit D&D looks like and they're consolidating to try and are loading the shotgun with a ten watered down sequels to fire off if there's opportunity to make money. I'm 100% sure there have been board meetings with D&D but the & is replaced with a $. Sure its about subs, sure its about 3rd party profits, but its also about Hasbro ready and waiting to pimp out Wizards to the big screen because it sees payday.
I'm pretty surprised that Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves hasn't been mentioned more in this OGL conversation. Release date: March 31, 2023 and Hasbro and Wizards are extremely pumped for it. I know Subs is hitting them hard, but I think they'd be more scared if their movie's performance was in question.
"You canceled your subscription on 01/14/2023."
(1) Our job is to be good stewards of the game: Wrong. We are the stewards of the game. You print books.
(2) the OGL exists for the benefit of the fans: Wrong. The OGL exists to benefit Wizards. 3rd party Creators have made your game what it is today.
I suspect they think some magical new crowd of consumers will appear, thanks to the movie, VTT, etc. Etc. etc...
A magical new crowd probably will show up, whether it's large enough to offset the mass exodus now that's the question.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
While the budget and release competition does not seem like a true blockbuster would be possible still probably only a minor part of the potential viewers will be players, let alone players keeping up with the news and having a risk/chance to make a decision influenced by the crisis. Yes, I won't spend any money on the movie unless this is resolved by a true 1.0b. But I have no delusions about being able to drum up a relevant boycot. Even if Critical Role would come out against it (probably contractually impossible) our voices would be drowned in the movies crowds. That is not an important component of the protest. But as I wrote, I won't put money at it.
D&D will be influenced against meaningless bloating and, while being restricted in size by justified backlash to their appalling behaviors, they will retain some leanness while growing in strength. There will be more competition and competitors will have strengths D&D does not have.
This is the kind of thing that historically happened after D&D creators arguably went mentally awol in their creation of 4e. Pathfinder was created on the basis of earlier content without which 5e, with its current cohesion, might never have been born.
Other creators will develop and improve great rival products and I hope they do well. The WotC hierarchy deserves a kick in the teeth. This, however, also has the potential to retain and even increase their focus on the need for solid game development. Sure, some of those developers may, like many of us, be brokenhearted. However, for WotC, their contributions will be more vital than ever. WotC won't just need to produce products that are marketable but will need to compete with the appeals of increasingly viable competitors.
The D&D brand has been rightly shamed and embarrassed. We've all lost. Expectations, however, have been brought into focus and there is a future where we win and D&D can be part of it, albeit without my support.
This 5-year graph would disagree with you.
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/h/hasbro-inc-common-stock-usd0.50
D&D is not going to die. It will have moments of better or worse reception in the public, but it will always exist in some way or another.
This OGL issue may cause the brand to suffer, to tremble, but it is not going to fall. Now, yes, if a competitor takes the opportunity to launch a better product, with abundant third-party content, and two or three famous influencers give their support, the damage to D&D and WoTC will be great. A few months ago something like this seemed very difficult, but now they have made it very easy.
- The brand image of WoTC is on the ground.
- Competitors have a common cause (for now) to ally.
- Those who establish themselves as champions of the cause will see their brand image strengthened.
- Almost no third party is going to trust WoTC and its new OGL (or the license that they negotiate given the case). Goodman is the only case that comes to mind of third parties that might continue to produce for D&D.
It's the perfect breeding ground for D&D to fall on its face. But he won't die, that's for sure.
While we're on the topic, the movie looks great so far, and I for one am excited to watch it. The CGI looks incredible and the setting is awesome. My only worry is that the writing might end up being crap. The movie has the potential to be either really, really good, or to be a repeat of the 2000 movie.
[REDACTED]
Yep, I'll also try to see it - on a ticket for a different movie.
I learned PF2e in 20 minutes yesterday. Amazingly some of the rules differences actually work better with my table rules.
Foundry and Roll20 and Startplaying.games are teaming up to give away PF2 core rules to any GM who runs a "Learn to Play" session between now and the end of February.
Everyone is talking about PF2 and other systems. How about Mork Borg, that's really cool too.
Of course, I still have my AD&D books on the shelf right behind me, and I will be taking them to Gary Con to play old school D&D in March.
D&D will never die, but WotC can, whatever. Hope and Light!
<cackle>
It doesn't look great to me. For one thing, Chris Pine is in it.