It's a travesty that we don't have a lot of the lore from the two books available any more. I understand wanting to deliver more content in setting books, but not everyone uses premade settings, and it's helpful for them to have some lore - or at least ideas for possible lore - to use as a basis or standard in case they didn't have time to explore a particular part of their world.
The issue I take with this - that lore is all readily available. The Forgotten Realms wiki is excellent, making all kinds of lore readily available with the click of a button. At this point, folks who want lore not only have decades of official lore out there—they have a database that catalogs all that lore into a single, concise location better than any monster manual ever has.
I personally like reading the official lore - I mostly homebrew, but I prefer to homebrew with some familiar characters and gods so my players don’t have to memorise something new (doing a 100% homebrew right now, and no one remembers the gods’ names like they would for Vecna or Bahamut).
But, I’ll take paying for more creatures stuffed into my monster book (or more art—I’m always here for more art I can show my players) over a slightly different paragraph stating something I can readily obtain elsewhere.
Now, one thing I would love to see to make up for the streamlined books - more articles on D&D Beyond with better databasing so the Goblin page might have links to articles talking about the creature. Beyond could really become something similar to Dungeon Magazine in the past - something where Wizards tosses out some new, interesting lore that doesn’t make it into the books. Some of my favourite lore in earlier editions came from these supplemental articles - things like “here’s some information about the Good followers of Vecna” or other world building ideas that were more complex than the (sometimes overly) simplistic narratives found in base materials.
In my experience wiki’s can vary wildly on giving lore for a TTRPG, but I admit I haven’t tried to deep dive D&D yet. Though I will say that I would be a little worried that for something that has amassed so much lore and retcons, a full D&D lore wiki might come across as too dense for someone looking for just a bit of general lore. Or maybe I just have a personal bias towards lore books.
honestly my biggest issue wasn't that they removed lore it was that they didn't replace with either anything of something of equalish value. I don't personally care where the lore comes from, I just like reading the flavor text if the text says it's from faerun great if it says its from darksun cool just giving neat little bits of info I can choose to use or not use in my homebrew setting. I mean just look at the hadozee background that they removed not whether it was actually racist I leave that up to you to decided for yourself but you can not deny that the background they replaced it with was incredibly dull and boring.
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If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
Reading this thread was an interesting experience for me.
I recall Mystara, for example, and Greyhawk, and all the rest up until right after Birthright. I only started in late 1979.
I am a mixed race trans woman who is a sociologist, psychologist, and works professionally as a diversity, inclusion, and equity structural system designer, and in ensuring health care for trans and gender diverse people. Worked at this for two decades.
In the short time I have been active on these forums, I have chuckled because some things are the same no matter what forum you go to, and it has been a while.
there was no lore lost. It just isn’t immediately available here — on this site. So I read it because I was curious why someone would say that.
i have dealt with the stuff that WotC is talking about *fixing* since the 60’s, and it is a large part of why I never use any published setting — because no setting published is free of it. So it likely goes without saying that I agree with the decision on their part — noting as well that my current circumstances have enabled me to buy book and digital format stuff.
in this thread, I witnessed some rather unsurprising defenses of what amounts to these social ills that I have worked my life to help overcome, and I say that to point out just how deeply dependent on much of this ugly stuff — all of which spun from the initial rule books, and ultimately influenced every part of the rest.
I am aware that my writing this will make several people upset, and honestly, unless there is some new argument I haven’t seen before, I probably will ignore them. Because I have heard them all, at this point. Is my job.
I also saw some amazing folks here pro I ding excellent responses and some fence sitters recognize that they are on the fence while still supporting.
The Forgotten Realms, independent of its players and any gaming habits, is a rich setting with as many inconsistencies as the real world, and as many things thought to be one way that turn out to be another as the real world.
it isn’t for me. never will be, no matter how much the accomplish, but it doesn’t need to be and I can admire it at the same time I won’t use it. That same thinking can apply to anyone, however, and let’s say I wanted to run a campaign on Greyhawk or Mystara or FR even with all the crap that makes me not want to do so, and all the crap that I want to see gone, well, I still can.
because there is enough stuff not on here but still online to do that. So there is no lore gone. It is just in a different place. The lore that was removed is the kind of stuff that has been shown over and over again to cause measurable harm — harm that can be tracked in a body and that ultimately costs everyone. Even in the context of a game.
A game meant to be the one place someone could go to escape that kind of crap. A game meant to let both “those people” and the people who really strong dislike them both have fun and enjoy a chance to relax and play and laugh.
thank you all for this.
learning this much from one thread is a rare treat for me.
and not to coincidentally will inform a block list, I am sure.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
honestly my biggest issue wasn't that they removed lore it was that they didn't replace with either anything of something of equalish value.
Yeah they did. They replaced it with the combined book being substantially cheaper than the combination of the two originals. Most people are buying a monster book for monsters, not for lore, and MMM does an excellent job of providing a big book full of monsters.
The cool thing about Volo and Elminster giving information is that it intrinsically allows for the potential for an unreliable narrator. This was especially true with the way Volo was often presented as a self-aggrandizing blow hard. Even Elminister had a bit of the 'old fool who may have forgotten the exact details' about him. The genius there is that it the DM could use the lore in such a way that the adventurers would find that Volo/Elminister was exactly wrong about something.
Which actually fits with the real world. Two different historians could write a biography on Julius Caesar, for example, and the narratives could be very different and draw very different conclusions from the same facts.
So, with this in mind, I'd rather they had handled it all creatively. Rather than eliminating Volo's Guide, for example, put out a new book written by a hobgoblin scholar (or the like) which goes over some new stuff, but also has some contradictions to show that lore is open to interpretation and also depends on your perspective. Have some creative fun with it all...
3. Why would an evil wizard or evil god create a species that is capable of being good? That doesn't make sense.
I’ve thought of this too, but you could also ask this question about it: why would an evil wizard or god make their created soldiers need years of growth before they’re combat ready? If I were Gruumsh, the proverbial orc babies would be at least CR 1/8. (Though now I have an idea of a god constantly releasing new versions of their evil species to fix the Turns Good glitch).
For the topic at hand: I would have preferred more purely setting books over the current trend of adventure books with a little setting info. I love reading wikis though, so that’s not the worst solution.
Ability modifiers for different Species is racism in action. But because of how racism, as a system, operates in the real world, people aren't realizing that the stat removal is part of stripping racism from the game, and they are putting them back in and sometimes even thinking they aren't contributing to the problem.
making me chuckle, because it is an awesome example of not only how deep racism runs in the game and in our respective societies in real life, but also how incredibly invisible it is to most people.
sorry, silly observation. Carry on.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
1. E.g. devils are lawful evil, demons are chaotic level. With removing strict alignment there is no difference - we lose diversity.
2. The planes lore is broken. Each creature had its coresponding plane according to its alignment. Modrons, for example, were the embodiment of the universal principle of order. Lawful Neutral. Now, with removed alignment they are like any other creature. Again unification and diversity killing.
3. Why would an evil wizard or evil god create a species that is capable of being good? That doesn't make sense.
1. Nothing prevents a plane from having a governing philosophy. If you get rid of alignment it probably doesn't get called "lawful evil", but it's still there. However, freewilled creatures might reject that philosophy (in which case they may become unwelcome on their home plane, but that's a separate issue).
2. Honestly, the outer planes seem to be "we wanted to steal from mythology and we have this existing alignment scheme, so where can we stuff this particular concept for an outer plane". It may be traditional, but the great wheel is also kinda incoherent.
3. If the evil wizard creates a free-willed creature, there's always the risk that it will do something the wizard doesn't want, because that's what free will does. As for why the wizard creates free-willed creatures instead of will-less constructs, it's either because he cannot, or because there are unwanted side effects of something lacking free will. I'd tend to bet on the former, the evil wizard's creations going rogue is a core genre trope.
@Caerwyn_Glyndwr So far your responses were very helpful. Could you please consider this?:
I have been thinking whole the time about removing strict alignment. By doing this, we will get even more lore to delete.
1. E.g. devils are lawful evil, demons are chaotic level. With removing strict alignment there is no difference - we lose diversity.
2. The planes lore is broken. Each creature had its coresponding plane according to its alignment. Modrons, for example, were the embodiment of the universal principle of order. Lawful Neutral. Now, with removed alignment they are like any other creature. Again unification and diversity killing.
3. Why would an evil wizard or evil god create a species that is capable of being good? That doesn't make sense.
1. Removing alignment from PCs does not mean removing it from monsters. It just means that whatever alignment tag is in their entry doesn't matter in play. Your character fights demons and devils because of what they're doing, not because of a tag in their entry. Most PCs probably don't even care which one is which unless they need to deal with them using means other than violence.
2. Similarly, whether Modrons are tagged "LN" or not doesn't have to have any bearing on their behavior. They adhere to strict programming and rigid hierarchies - LN is a way to summarize that, not a way to supplant their behavior.
3. Creating life doesn't have to be (and arguably can't be) an exact science. When Grummsh made Orcs, he probably was in fact looking for perfectly obedient servants, but at the end of the day that's not what he got. Despite being a god, he's not perfect either. D&D gods are neither infallible nor omniscient, otherwise there'd be no such things as a God of Lies or a God of Secrets.
If "Evil Gods" can easily and effortlessly create creatures that fundamentally cannot ever be Good...why wouldn't 'Good Gods" similarly create creatures that fundamentally cannot ever be Evil? How do 'Evil' alignables ever happen in 'Good' species?
3. Creating life doesn't have to be (and arguably can't be) an exact science. When Grummsh made Orcs, he probably was in fact looking for perfectly obedient servants, but at the end of the day that's not what he got. Despite being a god, he's not perfect either. D&D gods are neither infallible nor omniscient, otherwise there'd be no such things as a God of Lies or a God of Secrets.
This! We in western culture are used to thinking of a god as being all knowing and all powerful after the judeo-Christian-Muslim deity concept. Earlier pantheistic systems didn’t and if you really look at them they are mostly messes - think 4-15 year olds with way more power than judgement ability or planning ability. Especially Grumssh.
The problem with Dorsey’s argument about species abilities being racist is that when we actually look at a range of human or near human real world species they do/did have distinct species abilities. In game terms goliaths should have an average strength greater than a kobold for instance . The problem is that we have to fit them all ( over 2 dozen species and variants) into a single set of stats that are not designed to handle the variations. So the best we can do is to have them all work with the same stat ranges and then give each one some extra abilities that are different from the others in various ways ( unfortunately some are really cultural not biological) to make each stand out from the others.
Incidentally, if I'm an evil wizard and can actually choose the alignment of my creations, they're gonna be LN. I don't want evil servants, I want servants that do what I tell them to do.
Ability modifiers for different Species is racism in action. But because of how racism, as a system, operates in the real world, people aren't realizing that the stat removal is part of stripping racism from the game, and they are putting them back in and sometimes even thinking they aren't contributing to the problem.
True that.
I think most of the time, the conscious urge is just "tradition" for most people, and "tradition" is most of D&D's brand.
3. Creating life doesn't have to be (and arguably can't be) an exact science. When Grummsh made Orcs, he probably was in fact looking for perfectly obedient servants, but at the end of the day that's not what he got. Despite being a god, he's not perfect either. D&D gods are neither infallible nor omniscient, otherwise there'd be no such things as a God of Lies or a God of Secrets.
This! We in western culture are used to thinking of a god as being all knowing and all powerful after the judeo-Christian-Muslim deity concept. Earlier pantheistic systems didn’t and if you really look at them they are mostly messes - think 4-15 year olds with way more power than judgement ability or planning ability. Especially Grumssh.
The problem with Dorsey’s argument about species abilities being racist is that when we actually look at a range of human or near human real world species they do/did have distinct species abilities. In game terms goliaths should have an average strength greater than a kobold for instance . The problem is that we have to fit them all ( over 2 dozen species and variants) into a single set of stats that are not designed to handle the variations. So the best we can do is to have them all work with the same stat ranges and then give each one some extra abilities that are different from the others in various ways ( unfortunately some are really cultural not biological) to make each stand out from the others.
Absolutely on on the Western deitic systems -- not so much on the many, many others (but your point is MORE than valid and solid).
Call me Toni. The name is D'orsay, and every spell check in existence messes it up, lol. I would rather (but not like) spell check to type Tony than anything else, lol.
Not all species abilities are inherently racist -- those drawn from cultural norms are absolutely valid -- if the culture isn't an appropriation or pastiche that highlights such, blah blah.
Ability Scores are a distinct issue, though -- especially any modifications to Int, Wis, Cha and options of Sanity and Honor, but to a lesser extent to Str, Dex, and Con. If two peoples are within three standard variations of each other, then the addition of a Strength or Dex, maybe -- but if so, then it would be the larger ones who take a hit to Dex and bonus to Str, and the smaller ones who take a hit to Strength but an even greater bonus to Dex, but there is no reason to do so with Con, because it isn't a measure of "size".
It is a system that measures humans -- but now you won't give humans any adjustments because "they are the baseline" -- and guess what -- if everyone has it, and they don't, you walk into the trap of racism again, and never even saw it.
your argument is that faeries are small and fragile and Giants are big and strong, and in so doing you make a racist argument because you are saying it is inherent in them as a whole people, and that there cannot be a powerful fairy or a weak giant.
(now that was an argument. Earlier was an observation, lol).
I get it. Really, I do. Dwarven constitution, Elven agility, Giant strength -- these are all supposed to be things that separate them from humans.
Except that they *are*: and it is racist in function and action. Which should tell you a lot about our favorite stories, as well...
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
If "Evil Gods" can easily and effortlessly create creatures that fundamentally cannot ever be Good...why wouldn't 'Good Gods" similarly create creatures that fundamentally cannot ever be Evil? How do 'Evil' alignables ever happen in 'Good' species?
You obviously never heard about poor little Timmy Montague. (this is a bit of humor.)
Timmy Montague was the survivor of a raid on a village by a band of orcs, goblins, and gnolls. It was horrible what they did to him and hs lawful good village. Just devastating. They did horrible things to his mother, then ate her, then used her to fertilize the fields where they hung him up as a scarecrow. Then the Baron decided to reclaim the Family Farm for non payment of taxes because his dad was killed in the same raid. It wasn't pretty.
Someone gave him a broadsword, iron rations, and a ten foot pole and now Timmy Montague is engaged in single minded slaughter of all goblins and gnolls, and orcs because he is racist as heck against them. Little Timmy Montague is now Neutral Evil Timmy Montague and his village is ashamed.
(also, I have the feeling I will be telling a lot of stories about little Timmy).
now, the real question to me is What defines evil and good -- is it cultural values (morality and attitude) or is it trauma and stigma?
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Ability modifiers for different Species is racism in action. But because of how racism, as a system, operates in the real world, people aren't realizing that the stat removal is part of stripping racism from the game, and they are putting them back in and sometimes even thinking they aren't contributing to the problem.
True that.
I think most of the time, the conscious urge is just "tradition" for most people, and "tradition" is most of D&D's brand.
Ayup. *sings a song from Fiddler on the Roof*
rolls a 2.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Incidentally, if I'm an evil wizard and can actually choose the alignment of my creations, they're gonna be LN. I don't want evil servants, I want servants that do what I tell them to do.
I would too, lol. That being said, this thread has really spun off topic.
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It seems to come down to whether someone has the capacity to disassociate fiction from reality when it comes to ability score mods. Appreciate not everyone is capable of doing that.
The main value to fiction is what it can teach us about reality. None of us will ever be or meet elves and orcs. But elves and orcs can teach us things about how we relate to our fellow human beings. Appreciate that not everyone is capable of grasping allegory and symbolism though.
Ability modifiers for different Species is racism in action. But because of how racism, as a system, operates in the real world, people aren't realizing that the stat removal is part of stripping racism from the game, and they are putting them back in and sometimes even thinking they aren't contributing to the problem.
making me chuckle, because it is an awesome example of not only how deep racism runs in the game and in our respective societies in real life, but also how incredibly invisible it is to most people.
sorry, silly observation. Carry on.
I suppose it would be, if the differences between human beings were the same as the differences between human beings and, say, orcs in traditional conceptions. Fantasy races are... a fantasy. They are not real. They don't need to be equated to anything real. If I do not make the same inferences as you do, then I do not give "orcs being equal" or "orcs being stronger and less intelligent than humans" as being racist. And I don't have to make the same inferences as you do. "Race" in fantasy and "race" in real-world culture do not have to be the same thing. If I want my players to view orcs as evil monsters in my setting, I have harmed no one. If I have a player that has a problem with that, I can be accommodating but I expect them to respect my perspective as much as they expect me to respect theirs.
I am an educated person with a graduate degree and all that. I am an independent thinker which tends to get me into conflict with folks from all sorts of different and often opposing perspectives. I believe in tolerance. I despise discrimination. I believe systemic racism/gender bias/lgbtq+ discrimination is a problem. What I do not accept are pseudo-Freudian analyses of fiction to construct meanings that others demand that I follow unquestioningly. I'm also untroubled by publishers choosing to accept a different perspective than my own so WoTC can do what it wants. If I don't like their concept, I change it. Orcs are not people. Orcs are not real. They are not required to be stand-ins for real people. They won't be stand-ins for real people unless real people choose them to be. Orcs are monsters with negative characteristics because that is often the function of a monster, to be scary, mean, and dangerous. That way you get to attack them when they show up and get to roll some dice. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
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The issue I take with this - that lore is all readily available. The Forgotten Realms wiki is excellent, making all kinds of lore readily available with the click of a button. At this point, folks who want lore not only have decades of official lore out there—they have a database that catalogs all that lore into a single, concise location better than any monster manual ever has.
I personally like reading the official lore - I mostly homebrew, but I prefer to homebrew with some familiar characters and gods so my players don’t have to memorise something new (doing a 100% homebrew right now, and no one remembers the gods’ names like they would for Vecna or Bahamut).
But, I’ll take paying for more creatures stuffed into my monster book (or more art—I’m always here for more art I can show my players) over a slightly different paragraph stating something I can readily obtain elsewhere.
Now, one thing I would love to see to make up for the streamlined books - more articles on D&D Beyond with better databasing so the Goblin page might have links to articles talking about the creature. Beyond could really become something similar to Dungeon Magazine in the past - something where Wizards tosses out some new, interesting lore that doesn’t make it into the books. Some of my favourite lore in earlier editions came from these supplemental articles - things like “here’s some information about the Good followers of Vecna” or other world building ideas that were more complex than the (sometimes overly) simplistic narratives found in base materials.
In my experience wiki’s can vary wildly on giving lore for a TTRPG, but I admit I haven’t tried to deep dive D&D yet. Though I will say that I would be a little worried that for something that has amassed so much lore and retcons, a full D&D lore wiki might come across as too dense for someone looking for just a bit of general lore. Or maybe I just have a personal bias towards lore books.
honestly my biggest issue wasn't that they removed lore it was that they didn't replace with either anything of something of equalish value. I don't personally care where the lore comes from, I just like reading the flavor text if the text says it's from faerun great if it says its from darksun cool just giving neat little bits of info I can choose to use or not use in my homebrew setting. I mean just look at the hadozee background that they removed not whether it was actually racist I leave that up to you to decided for yourself but you can not deny that the background they replaced it with was incredibly dull and boring.
If I can't say something nice, I try to not say anything at all. So if I suddenly stop participating in a topic that's probably why.
Reading this thread was an interesting experience for me.
I recall Mystara, for example, and Greyhawk, and all the rest up until right after Birthright. I only started in late 1979.
I am a mixed race trans woman who is a sociologist, psychologist, and works professionally as a diversity, inclusion, and equity structural system designer, and in ensuring health care for trans and gender diverse people. Worked at this for two decades.
In the short time I have been active on these forums, I have chuckled because some things are the same no matter what forum you go to, and it has been a while.
there was no lore lost. It just isn’t immediately available here — on this site. So I read it because I was curious why someone would say that.
i have dealt with the stuff that WotC is talking about *fixing* since the 60’s, and it is a large part of why I never use any published setting — because no setting published is free of it. So it likely goes without saying that I agree with the decision on their part — noting as well that my current circumstances have enabled me to buy book and digital format stuff.
in this thread, I witnessed some rather unsurprising defenses of what amounts to these social ills that I have worked my life to help overcome, and I say that to point out just how deeply dependent on much of this ugly stuff — all of which spun from the initial rule books, and ultimately influenced every part of the rest.
I am aware that my writing this will make several people upset, and honestly, unless there is some new argument I haven’t seen before, I probably will ignore them. Because I have heard them all, at this point. Is my job.
I also saw some amazing folks here pro I ding excellent responses and some fence sitters recognize that they are on the fence while still supporting.
The Forgotten Realms, independent of its players and any gaming habits, is a rich setting with as many inconsistencies as the real world, and as many things thought to be one way that turn out to be another as the real world.
it isn’t for me. never will be, no matter how much the accomplish, but it doesn’t need to be and I can admire it at the same time I won’t use it. That same thinking can apply to anyone, however, and let’s say I wanted to run a campaign on Greyhawk or Mystara or FR even with all the crap that makes me not want to do so, and all the crap that I want to see gone, well, I still can.
because there is enough stuff not on here but still online to do that. So there is no lore gone. It is just in a different place. The lore that was removed is the kind of stuff that has been shown over and over again to cause measurable harm — harm that can be tracked in a body and that ultimately costs everyone. Even in the context of a game.
A game meant to be the one place someone could go to escape that kind of crap. A game meant to let both “those people” and the people who really strong dislike them both have fun and enjoy a chance to relax and play and laugh.
thank you all for this.
learning this much from one thread is a rare treat for me.
and not to coincidentally will inform a block list, I am sure.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Yeah they did. They replaced it with the combined book being substantially cheaper than the combination of the two originals. Most people are buying a monster book for monsters, not for lore, and MMM does an excellent job of providing a big book full of monsters.
The cool thing about Volo and Elminster giving information is that it intrinsically allows for the potential for an unreliable narrator. This was especially true with the way Volo was often presented as a self-aggrandizing blow hard. Even Elminister had a bit of the 'old fool who may have forgotten the exact details' about him. The genius there is that it the DM could use the lore in such a way that the adventurers would find that Volo/Elminister was exactly wrong about something.
Which actually fits with the real world. Two different historians could write a biography on Julius Caesar, for example, and the narratives could be very different and draw very different conclusions from the same facts.
So, with this in mind, I'd rather they had handled it all creatively. Rather than eliminating Volo's Guide, for example, put out a new book written by a hobgoblin scholar (or the like) which goes over some new stuff, but also has some contradictions to show that lore is open to interpretation and also depends on your perspective. Have some creative fun with it all...
I’ve thought of this too, but you could also ask this question about it: why would an evil wizard or god make their created soldiers need years of growth before they’re combat ready? If I were Gruumsh, the proverbial orc babies would be at least CR 1/8. (Though now I have an idea of a god constantly releasing new versions of their evil species to fix the Turns Good glitch).
For the topic at hand: I would have preferred more purely setting books over the current trend of adventure books with a little setting info. I love reading wikis though, so that’s not the worst solution.
Really funny thing to me...
Ability modifiers for different Species is racism in action. But because of how racism, as a system, operates in the real world, people aren't realizing that the stat removal is part of stripping racism from the game, and they are putting them back in and sometimes even thinking they aren't contributing to the problem.
making me chuckle, because it is an awesome example of not only how deep racism runs in the game and in our respective societies in real life, but also how incredibly invisible it is to most people.
sorry, silly observation. Carry on.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
1. Nothing prevents a plane from having a governing philosophy. If you get rid of alignment it probably doesn't get called "lawful evil", but it's still there. However, freewilled creatures might reject that philosophy (in which case they may become unwelcome on their home plane, but that's a separate issue).
2. Honestly, the outer planes seem to be "we wanted to steal from mythology and we have this existing alignment scheme, so where can we stuff this particular concept for an outer plane". It may be traditional, but the great wheel is also kinda incoherent.
3. If the evil wizard creates a free-willed creature, there's always the risk that it will do something the wizard doesn't want, because that's what free will does. As for why the wizard creates free-willed creatures instead of will-less constructs, it's either because he cannot, or because there are unwanted side effects of something lacking free will. I'd tend to bet on the former, the evil wizard's creations going rogue is a core genre trope.
1. Removing alignment from PCs does not mean removing it from monsters. It just means that whatever alignment tag is in their entry doesn't matter in play. Your character fights demons and devils because of what they're doing, not because of a tag in their entry. Most PCs probably don't even care which one is which unless they need to deal with them using means other than violence.
2. Similarly, whether Modrons are tagged "LN" or not doesn't have to have any bearing on their behavior. They adhere to strict programming and rigid hierarchies - LN is a way to summarize that, not a way to supplant their behavior.
3. Creating life doesn't have to be (and arguably can't be) an exact science. When Grummsh made Orcs, he probably was in fact looking for perfectly obedient servants, but at the end of the day that's not what he got. Despite being a god, he's not perfect either. D&D gods are neither infallible nor omniscient, otherwise there'd be no such things as a God of Lies or a God of Secrets.
Simple question.
If "Evil Gods" can easily and effortlessly create creatures that fundamentally cannot ever be Good...why wouldn't 'Good Gods" similarly create creatures that fundamentally cannot ever be Evil? How do 'Evil' alignables ever happen in 'Good' species?
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3. Creating life doesn't have to be (and arguably can't be) an exact science. When Grummsh made Orcs, he probably was in fact looking for perfectly obedient servants, but at the end of the day that's not what he got. Despite being a god, he's not perfect either. D&D gods are neither infallible nor omniscient, otherwise there'd be no such things as a God of Lies or a God of Secrets.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Incidentally, if I'm an evil wizard and can actually choose the alignment of my creations, they're gonna be LN. I don't want evil servants, I want servants that do what I tell them to do.
True that.
I think most of the time, the conscious urge is just "tradition" for most people, and "tradition" is most of D&D's brand.
Absolutely on on the Western deitic systems -- not so much on the many, many others (but your point is MORE than valid and solid).
Call me Toni. The name is D'orsay, and every spell check in existence messes it up, lol. I would rather (but not like) spell check to type Tony than anything else, lol.
Not all species abilities are inherently racist -- those drawn from cultural norms are absolutely valid -- if the culture isn't an appropriation or pastiche that highlights such, blah blah.
Ability Scores are a distinct issue, though -- especially any modifications to Int, Wis, Cha and options of Sanity and Honor, but to a lesser extent to Str, Dex, and Con. If two peoples are within three standard variations of each other, then the addition of a Strength or Dex, maybe -- but if so, then it would be the larger ones who take a hit to Dex and bonus to Str, and the smaller ones who take a hit to Strength but an even greater bonus to Dex, but there is no reason to do so with Con, because it isn't a measure of "size".
It is a system that measures humans -- but now you won't give humans any adjustments because "they are the baseline" -- and guess what -- if everyone has it, and they don't, you walk into the trap of racism again, and never even saw it.
your argument is that faeries are small and fragile and Giants are big and strong, and in so doing you make a racist argument because you are saying it is inherent in them as a whole people, and that there cannot be a powerful fairy or a weak giant.
(now that was an argument. Earlier was an observation, lol).
I get it. Really, I do. Dwarven constitution, Elven agility, Giant strength -- these are all supposed to be things that separate them from humans.
Except that they *are*: and it is racist in function and action. Which should tell you a lot about our favorite stories, as well...
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You obviously never heard about poor little Timmy Montague. (this is a bit of humor.)
Timmy Montague was the survivor of a raid on a village by a band of orcs, goblins, and gnolls. It was horrible what they did to him and hs lawful good village. Just devastating. They did horrible things to his mother, then ate her, then used her to fertilize the fields where they hung him up as a scarecrow. Then the Baron decided to reclaim the Family Farm for non payment of taxes because his dad was killed in the same raid. It wasn't pretty.
Someone gave him a broadsword, iron rations, and a ten foot pole and now Timmy Montague is engaged in single minded slaughter of all goblins and gnolls, and orcs because he is racist as heck against them. Little Timmy Montague is now Neutral Evil Timmy Montague and his village is ashamed.
(also, I have the feeling I will be telling a lot of stories about little Timmy).
now, the real question to me is What defines evil and good -- is it cultural values (morality and attitude) or is it trauma and stigma?
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Ayup. *sings a song from Fiddler on the Roof*
rolls a 2.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I would too, lol. That being said, this thread has really spun off topic.
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HERE.The main value to fiction is what it can teach us about reality. None of us will ever be or meet elves and orcs. But elves and orcs can teach us things about how we relate to our fellow human beings. Appreciate that not everyone is capable of grasping allegory and symbolism though.
I suppose it would be, if the differences between human beings were the same as the differences between human beings and, say, orcs in traditional conceptions. Fantasy races are... a fantasy. They are not real. They don't need to be equated to anything real. If I do not make the same inferences as you do, then I do not give "orcs being equal" or "orcs being stronger and less intelligent than humans" as being racist. And I don't have to make the same inferences as you do. "Race" in fantasy and "race" in real-world culture do not have to be the same thing. If I want my players to view orcs as evil monsters in my setting, I have harmed no one. If I have a player that has a problem with that, I can be accommodating but I expect them to respect my perspective as much as they expect me to respect theirs.
I am an educated person with a graduate degree and all that. I am an independent thinker which tends to get me into conflict with folks from all sorts of different and often opposing perspectives. I believe in tolerance. I despise discrimination. I believe systemic racism/gender bias/lgbtq+ discrimination is a problem. What I do not accept are pseudo-Freudian analyses of fiction to construct meanings that others demand that I follow unquestioningly. I'm also untroubled by publishers choosing to accept a different perspective than my own so WoTC can do what it wants. If I don't like their concept, I change it. Orcs are not people. Orcs are not real. They are not required to be stand-ins for real people. They won't be stand-ins for real people unless real people choose them to be. Orcs are monsters with negative characteristics because that is often the function of a monster, to be scary, mean, and dangerous. That way you get to attack them when they show up and get to roll some dice. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.