Ok, as the title says, I am wondering if a bard can hold an instrument and a shield and still cast spells. I've looked around online and can't seem to find a solid answer. From what I understand, the bard CAN, but I am not going to pretend that I know everything about the spellcasting rules. I would really appreciate some guidance on this.
So some clarifying context: - The bard DOES have shield proficiency (cleric multiclass). - The bard is NOT wielding a weapon, just a shield and instrument.
Please let me know why or why not, with as much clarification as possible. Thank you for your time and help!
RAW, so long as there is not somatic (S) component, I don't see why you can't cast spells. However, unless you have War Caster, then you won't be able to cast spells that have an S component while bearing a shield (Clerics and Paladins have that class feature).
In terms of actual rulings though, you can't count on it. Your Bard cast magic through music as flavour...how is he playing music? He isn't, because his left hand (I'm assuming he is right handed) is holding the shield, not strumming the lyre or whatever. I'd rule that he can't at my table.
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@Linklite Ah, if I'm reading your response correctly, a cleric is able to use their shield for the somantic component, and thus the multiclass into cleric kind of solves the issue in and of itself? Am I interpreting that correctly?
Clerics don't automatically get to hold a shield and weapon, and still be able to cast a spell with Somatic components.
You need a free hand to cast a spell using Somatic components; however if the spell ALSO has Material components, then the same hand can be used for both the S and M components.
In the case of a Bard, holding an instrument as your focus (and something in the other hand) allows you to cast spells with both S and M components, but not those with S and not M.
Clerics and Paladins can have their spellcasting focus drawn on their shield, but they still need to follow the above rule (S+M allowed, S without M not allowed).
@Linklite Ah, if I'm reading your response correctly, a cleric is able to use their shield for the somantic component, and thus the multiclass into cleric kind of solves the issue in and of itself? Am I interpreting that correctly?
The Cleric (and Paladin) can embed their Holy Symbol into their shield.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
By the raw they can cast the spells, there's nothing that says they have to actually play the instrument when using it as a focus in the RAW. Not all bards have to play instruments.
The rules in the PHB specify:
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
So S + M can be performed by the same hand as long as the item being held in that hand is a focus.
The only spells they wouldn't be able to cast while holding the shield are ones that require a specific material (A material with a cost that cannot be substituted with a focus) in which case they'd need to drop the instrument (free action) pull the required material out and cast the spell. Next turn they can pick the weapon back up as free object interaction again anyway. The same would apply for spells that need a free hand for just Somatic or Somatic + Verbal.
Since by the RAW they can just free object interaction to put away / down the instrument and pick it up or take it out again the next turn, IMO it's not worth the time to quibble over.
Clerics don't automatically get to hold a shield and weapon, and still be able to cast a spell with Somatic components.
You need a free hand to cast a spell using Somatic components; however if the spell ALSO has Material components, then the same hand can be used for both the S and M components.
In the case of a Bard, holding an instrument as your focus (and something in the other hand) allows you to cast spells with both S and M components, but not those with S and not M.
Good grief this is confusing lol. It also seems that the root of this confusion is a argument that has been discussed for YEARS. Thank you though!
By the raw they can cast the spells, there's nothing that says they have to actually play the instrument when using it as a focus in the RAW. Not all bards have to play instruments.
The rules in the PHB specify:
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
So S + M can be performed by the same hand as long as the item being held in that hand is a focus.
The only spells they wouldn't be able to cast while holding the shield are ones that require a specific material (A material with a cost that cannot be substituted with a focus) in which case they'd need to drop the instrument (free action) pull the required material out and cast the spell. Next turn they can pick the weapon back up as free object interaction again anyway. The same would apply for spells that need a free hand for just Somatic or Somatic + Verbal.
Since by the RAW they can just free object interaction to put away / down the instrument and pick it up or take it out again the next turn, IMO it's not worth the time to quibble over.
Yea seeing all this and the small, yet easily overridden rules, makes it both complex and unnecessary.
I recently found this by RegentCorreon and I think it sums up the casting far better, and seems to be how most people play anyways:
"Verbal: Must be able to speak. Cannot cast if silenced or gagged.
Somatic: Must be able to move one hand freely, which is holding either nothing or a valid focus. Cannot cast if hands are tied or both holding non-focus objects.
Material: Must have the source of power in your possession (focus/pouch and/or $Ingredients) and must have one hand empty or holding a focus to access/channel that power. Cannot cast if power source is taken away (focus/pouch/$Ingredients) or both hands holding non-focus objects."
"Verbal: Must be able to speak. Cannot cast if silenced or gagged.
Somatic: Must be able to move one hand freely, which is holding either nothing or a valid focus. Cannot cast if hands are tied or both holding non-focus objects.
Material: Must have the source of power in your possession (focus/pouch and/or $Ingredients) and must have one hand empty or holding a focus to access/channel that power. Cannot cast if power source is taken away (focus/pouch/$Ingredients) or both hands holding non-focus objects."
But the focus only applies to the Somatic case if the spell also has the Material component. If the spell doesn't have a Material component, then you can't use a focus.
It's worth noting that you can either stow or draw one item as free interaction on your turn, so practically speaking the hand economy is just bookkeeping, although there are a few cases where it would be relevant (AoO being the biggest). So, strictly speaking, if your Bard has a shield in one hand, their instrument in the other, and is attempting to cast a VS or S spell, they technically need to first announce they're stowing the instrument as a free action, then cast, and then when they want to cast a spell with an M component they need to announce they're using a free action to draw the instrument again. As this is a largely pointless exercise, it's typically handwaved at tables, but I would say it's worth keeping in mind if, instead of just shuffling around the focus, the hand not holding the shield is in some way occupied interacting with the environment, like holding a rope or lever. War Caster of course negates the need to worry about this at all, and it's a good feat for any frontline caster.
Clerics and Paladins can have their spellcasting focus drawn on their shield, but they still need to follow the above rule (S+M allowed, S without M not allowed).
But this would apply only to cleric (paladin) spells. Multiclassed bard/cleric wouldn't be able to cast bard spells via shield focus.
Aside from the above comment on action economy by Ace of rogues, wouldn’t it depend on the instrument - pan pipes are small and need one hand but good luck with the verbal component. Double base . Just good luck. Violin or guitar - nope need 2 hands to play them. This is generally why bardic spell casting does not require you to play an instrument.
By raw, the bard's "instrument" can be his voice. He can sing or do interpretive dance, or just make fart sounds with his armpits. Strap a harmonica on a harness? Use the shield like a drum? Also by RAW he's proficient with multiple instruments.
Given those two facts, I've never felt the need to punish a bard, as a DM for not wielding his lyre with two hands. If my player wants to self-impose that rule, it's on him. Plus, this leads to those great loki-scenes where the bard is gagged so that he can't cast verbally while tied up.
In point of fact, based on the casting rules, a Bard cannot declare his voice to be an instrument for the purposes of meeting the M component requirement. A Bard’s focus, as defined by the PHB, can be any tool from the instruments table. Likewise, they don’t actually need to play the instrument in the moment they’re casting, they simply need to be holding it in one hand. For all that people like to frame it differently, from a mechanical perspective a Bard casts in exactly the same manner a Wizard does, simply with a different array of options for a focus.
You can't have it both ways. If they cast the same way that a wizard does, then they still don't need to have 2 hands free, or even, necessarily be holding the lyre the right way round. It's just a McGuffin like the orb or the component pouch. The flute is a wand. Point is, it's all RP, and that's up to the GM how he likes to run a table.
"Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
My interpretation of this wording doesn't suggest anything about drawing or stowing as a part of the spell. Just HAVING a focus and hand free. The focus can be optionally in your hand, or not, but should probably be visible and accessible. Given this inherent flexibility, I see nothing stopping me from using my voice as my instrument (or a lucky coin, for that matter, or any other mcguffin) other than the existence of some other thing that is explicitly intended to be verbal. Rule of cool and all that. If you must differentiate the two, select one to be "arcane gibberish, chanting, singing, etc" (V) and the other to be "words that can be worked into conversation, like "let's be friends," (M) but I've never bothered.
I never said they need two hands free. I said that for a cast with an M component, they need to hold the instrument with one hand. And attempting to claim you can just call a V component your M component because of a semantic turn of phrase does have implications on combat, as I outlined earlier in this thread. For the purposes of a bard meeting component requirements, an instrument is a physical item. Ultimately I don’t particularly care what physical items, but it does have to be something you can physically hold in your hand.
A bard can cast bard spells using their instrument as a spellcasting focus in place of the material components for spells whose materials either don't have a cost or aren't consumed. They can use the same hand the instrument or material component is in to perform the somatic components for bard spells. If the bard spell has a material component that is consumed or has a cost such as Identify or Nondetection, then the bard must be holding that material component instead of their bardic focus (their instrument).
It's not so much that clerics can use their shield as a spellcasting focus for cleric spells as much as it is that the cleric can attach or paint their holy symbol on their shield, effectively using their shield as a focus by proxy. But again, this is only valid for cleric spells and only cleric spells that have a no cost/no consumption material component. If they want to cast something like Protection from Evil and Good which has a consumed material, then would need to use their other hand to get the material component (RAW equipping or unequipping a shield requires an action).
Though a lot of this revolves around how much the DM adheres to the rules around material components and spellcasting. Most I've seen and played with are pretty lax about it. They expect you to have consumable materials, but the logistics of switching things out on your turn are often ignored or hand-waved because it just slows down gameplay.
Ok, as the title says, I am wondering if a bard can hold an instrument and a shield and still cast spells. I've looked around online and can't seem to find a solid answer. From what I understand, the bard CAN, but I am not going to pretend that I know everything about the spellcasting rules. I would really appreciate some guidance on this.
So some clarifying context:
- The bard DOES have shield proficiency (cleric multiclass).
- The bard is NOT wielding a weapon, just a shield and instrument.
Please let me know why or why not, with as much clarification as possible. Thank you for your time and help!
RAW, so long as there is not somatic (S) component, I don't see why you can't cast spells. However, unless you have War Caster, then you won't be able to cast spells that have an S component while bearing a shield (Clerics and Paladins have that class feature).
In terms of actual rulings though, you can't count on it. Your Bard cast magic through music as flavour...how is he playing music? He isn't, because his left hand (I'm assuming he is right handed) is holding the shield, not strumming the lyre or whatever. I'd rule that he can't at my table.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
@Linklite Ah, if I'm reading your response correctly, a cleric is able to use their shield for the somantic component, and thus the multiclass into cleric kind of solves the issue in and of itself? Am I interpreting that correctly?
Clerics don't automatically get to hold a shield and weapon, and still be able to cast a spell with Somatic components.
You need a free hand to cast a spell using Somatic components; however if the spell ALSO has Material components, then the same hand can be used for both the S and M components.
In the case of a Bard, holding an instrument as your focus (and something in the other hand) allows you to cast spells with both S and M components, but not those with S and not M.
Clerics and Paladins can have their spellcasting focus drawn on their shield, but they still need to follow the above rule (S+M allowed, S without M not allowed).
The Cleric (and Paladin) can embed their Holy Symbol into their shield.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
By the raw they can cast the spells, there's nothing that says they have to actually play the instrument when using it as a focus in the RAW.
Not all bards have to play instruments.
The rules in the PHB specify:
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
So S + M can be performed by the same hand as long as the item being held in that hand is a focus.
The only spells they wouldn't be able to cast while holding the shield are ones that require a specific material (A material with a cost that cannot be substituted with a focus) in which case they'd need to drop the instrument (free action) pull the required material out and cast the spell.
Next turn they can pick the weapon back up as free object interaction again anyway.
The same would apply for spells that need a free hand for just Somatic or Somatic + Verbal.
Since by the RAW they can just free object interaction to put away / down the instrument and pick it up or take it out again the next turn, IMO it's not worth the time to quibble over.
Good grief this is confusing lol. It also seems that the root of this confusion is a argument that has been discussed for YEARS. Thank you though!
Yea seeing all this and the small, yet easily overridden rules, makes it both complex and unnecessary.
I recently found this by RegentCorreon and I think it sums up the casting far better, and seems to be how most people play anyways:
"Verbal: Must be able to speak. Cannot cast if silenced or gagged.
Somatic: Must be able to move one hand freely, which is holding either nothing or a valid focus. Cannot cast if hands are tied or both holding non-focus objects.
Material: Must have the source of power in your possession (focus/pouch and/or $Ingredients) and must have one hand empty or holding a focus to access/channel that power. Cannot cast if power source is taken away (focus/pouch/$Ingredients) or both hands holding non-focus objects."
But the focus only applies to the Somatic case if the spell also has the Material component. If the spell doesn't have a Material component, then you can't use a focus.
This thread isn't about creating forums. If you want your own thread, just press the New Thread button.
It's worth noting that you can either stow or draw one item as free interaction on your turn, so practically speaking the hand economy is just bookkeeping, although there are a few cases where it would be relevant (AoO being the biggest). So, strictly speaking, if your Bard has a shield in one hand, their instrument in the other, and is attempting to cast a VS or S spell, they technically need to first announce they're stowing the instrument as a free action, then cast, and then when they want to cast a spell with an M component they need to announce they're using a free action to draw the instrument again. As this is a largely pointless exercise, it's typically handwaved at tables, but I would say it's worth keeping in mind if, instead of just shuffling around the focus, the hand not holding the shield is in some way occupied interacting with the environment, like holding a rope or lever. War Caster of course negates the need to worry about this at all, and it's a good feat for any frontline caster.
But this would apply only to cleric (paladin) spells. Multiclassed bard/cleric wouldn't be able to cast bard spells via shield focus.
Aside from the above comment on action economy by Ace of rogues, wouldn’t it depend on the instrument - pan pipes are small and need one hand but good luck with the verbal component. Double base . Just good luck. Violin or guitar - nope need 2 hands to play them. This is generally why bardic spell casting does not require you to play an instrument.
By raw, the bard's "instrument" can be his voice. He can sing or do interpretive dance, or just make fart sounds with his armpits. Strap a harmonica on a harness? Use the shield like a drum? Also by RAW he's proficient with multiple instruments.
Given those two facts, I've never felt the need to punish a bard, as a DM for not wielding his lyre with two hands. If my player wants to self-impose that rule, it's on him. Plus, this leads to those great loki-scenes where the bard is gagged so that he can't cast verbally while tied up.
In point of fact, based on the casting rules, a Bard cannot declare his voice to be an instrument for the purposes of meeting the M component requirement. A Bard’s focus, as defined by the PHB, can be any tool from the instruments table. Likewise, they don’t actually need to play the instrument in the moment they’re casting, they simply need to be holding it in one hand. For all that people like to frame it differently, from a mechanical perspective a Bard casts in exactly the same manner a Wizard does, simply with a different array of options for a focus.
You can't have it both ways. If they cast the same way that a wizard does, then they still don't need to have 2 hands free, or even, necessarily be holding the lyre the right way round. It's just a McGuffin like the orb or the component pouch. The flute is a wand. Point is, it's all RP, and that's up to the GM how he likes to run a table.
"Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
My interpretation of this wording doesn't suggest anything about drawing or stowing as a part of the spell. Just HAVING a focus and hand free. The focus can be optionally in your hand, or not, but should probably be visible and accessible. Given this inherent flexibility, I see nothing stopping me from using my voice as my instrument (or a lucky coin, for that matter, or any other mcguffin) other than the existence of some other thing that is explicitly intended to be verbal. Rule of cool and all that. If you must differentiate the two, select one to be "arcane gibberish, chanting, singing, etc" (V) and the other to be "words that can be worked into conversation, like "let's be friends," (M) but I've never bothered.
I never said they need two hands free. I said that for a cast with an M component, they need to hold the instrument with one hand. And attempting to claim you can just call a V component your M component because of a semantic turn of phrase does have implications on combat, as I outlined earlier in this thread. For the purposes of a bard meeting component requirements, an instrument is a physical item. Ultimately I don’t particularly care what physical items, but it does have to be something you can physically hold in your hand.
A bard can cast bard spells using their instrument as a spellcasting focus in place of the material components for spells whose materials either don't have a cost or aren't consumed. They can use the same hand the instrument or material component is in to perform the somatic components for bard spells. If the bard spell has a material component that is consumed or has a cost such as Identify or Nondetection, then the bard must be holding that material component instead of their bardic focus (their instrument).
It's not so much that clerics can use their shield as a spellcasting focus for cleric spells as much as it is that the cleric can attach or paint their holy symbol on their shield, effectively using their shield as a focus by proxy. But again, this is only valid for cleric spells and only cleric spells that have a no cost/no consumption material component. If they want to cast something like Protection from Evil and Good which has a consumed material, then would need to use their other hand to get the material component (RAW equipping or unequipping a shield requires an action).
Though a lot of this revolves around how much the DM adheres to the rules around material components and spellcasting. Most I've seen and played with are pretty lax about it. They expect you to have consumable materials, but the logistics of switching things out on your turn are often ignored or hand-waved because it just slows down gameplay.