I mostly agree. The one cue I wish WotC would take from Paizo is with the accessories. PF kills it with lots of cool stuff: cheap general use maps, minis ranging from flat cardboard, to Wizkids prepainted and unpainted minis (which WotC also does to their credit), to Reaper Bones and Reaper metal minis, etc. The magnetic initiative board is one of my favorite things ever. The spell cards are cool, but PF does item cards. I know I could just make my own, but having something high quality would be awesome. Listen WotC, I'm trying to give you even more money than I already have. GIVE ME STUFF! Not trying to derail the conversation, but I do feel like this fits in to where I'd like to see the future of 5e go lol.
For the most part I think WotC has done a pretty good job for accessories. WizKids is doing both PF and D&D for their painted and unpainted minis and GF9 handles everything from spellcards to miniatures, maps and unique DM screens. GF9 is actually going to do monster stat and item cards some time this year also. About the only thing Paizo does that WotC hasn't gotten someone to do is cardboard minis and the Init screen. Also Reaper is a separate company from WotC and Paizo so their minis would work with either game.
I will say the Init board is something I wish a GF9 would jump onto because it would make make Init easier but honestly at this point a digital init through DnDB seems like something in our future or at least it should be.
Yeah, I use a lot of PF stuff with D&D (including the initiative board), and various other 3rd party things, but I feel like up until recently, minis have been more of an afterthought for WotC. I love both the painted and unpainted ones, but flat minis and more options for higher end ones would be nice :). The GF9 ones are cool, but I feel like there's a middle ground between their resin ones and the unpainted Wizkids ones.
Also, I know Reaper does system agnostic minis, but they do also put out Pathfinder branded ones as well.
Do the flat/cardboard actually sell very well? I know that FLGS aren't the best indicators of sells as some areas and stores are much better than others for gaming but the flats have set on the shelf of my local store for years now.
Honestly though with the exception of the resin, the painted and the unpainted minis I don't know that you will get much more in the way of DnD branded minis. Unless WotC decides to do another contract with someone like Reaper to do metal miniatures or something like that I think WizKids and GF9 is about it. Since WotC doesn't produce their own minis and there really isn't many companies that do miniatures other than WizKids, Reaper and GF9 that this is about it. If you do want something else though why not email Wizkids or GF9 ask for it. They might be more receptive than say WotC.
Personally I would be a fan of metal mins from GF9, their resin is way to fragile for a DM that does any traveling. Amazing detail on their minis but not made for a road DM.
The new book does take place on Greyhawk, so I guess they are branching out slightly. They will, in my opinion, have to change the one supplement two adventure per year thing they are doing. I think that Xanathar sold better than Storm King and probably even Tomb of Annihilation. If things start to go downhill the ratio may change. I personally am more interested in the supplements than the adventures.
I've been hiding under a rock lately, where did you hear that the new book takes place in Greyhawk?
I'd like to see a sourcebook or guidebook that explores character levels beyond Level 20. In some ways I'd like to see an "overlay" in which the characters enter those character levels with challenge tiers, rather than ability tiers. For example, that ancient red dragon is more than ancient. It has access to powers beyond the Monster Manual. Creatures would still be set in the core rules, but augmented somehow.
I'm tinkering with some home-brew rules right now and if my group survives the overall campaign I've designed I'm throwing them into levels beyond 20.
I'd like to see a sourcebook or guidebook that explores character levels beyond Level 20. In some ways I'd like to see an "overlay" in which the characters enter those character levels with challenge tiers, rather than ability tiers. For example, that ancient red dragon is more than ancient. It has access to powers beyond the Monster Manual. Creatures would still be set in the core rules, but augmented somehow.
I'm tinkering with some home-brew rules right now and if my group survives the overall campaign I've designed I'm throwing them into levels beyond 20.
I'm not sure that Piazo has the ability to compete with the combined efforts of Curse (and by extension Twitch) and WotC.
And by further extension Amazon, to add onto that! 5e has so much backing from community and businesses alike, at this point, that it would be foolish to not get at least 10 total years out of it. We're likely about to see the same edition move into other world settings, which will spark whole new rounds of adventures and bring in some folks to buy more books who maybe just don't like current setting.
The new book does take place on Greyhawk, so I guess they are branching out slightly. They will, in my opinion, have to change the one supplement two adventure per year thing they are doing. I think that Xanathar sold better than Storm King and probably even Tomb of Annihilation. If things start to go downhill the ratio may change. I personally am more interested in the supplements than the adventures.
I've been hiding under a rock lately, where did you hear that the new book takes place in Greyhawk?
Its a lore based source book not a adventure. So everyone screaming that it "takes place" on Greyhawk is kind of nutty. While its not out yet I expect it to be almost like another Volo's but with more flavor for the multiverse than just FR.
I won't worry about the next edition. 5e got great reviews and has been around for less time then the less-loved 4e, so it's not going anywhere for a while. In terms of upcoming books, a boy can still dream of a dark sun sourcebook...
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For god's sake. Find a hobby or something. Sheesh. Please stop using this font.
I won't worry about the next edition. 5e got great reviews and has been around for less time then the less-loved 4e, so it's not going anywhere for a while. In terms of upcoming books, a boy can still dream of a dark sun sourcebook...
I very much agree with you, but I must tell you: the absence of symmetry in the hilt of the sword in your signature is driving me nuts XD (there's a piece missing at the bottom, the top one has two "<" and one ">", the bottom one only has the two "<" :P)
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I'd like to see a sourcebook or guidebook that explores character levels beyond Level 20. In some ways I'd like to see an "overlay" in which the characters enter those character levels with challenge tiers, rather than ability tiers. For example, that ancient red dragon is more than ancient. It has access to powers beyond the Monster Manual. Creatures would still be set in the core rules, but augmented somehow.
I'm tinkering with some home-brew rules right now and if my group survives the overall campaign I've designed I'm throwing them into levels beyond 20.
Basically for every 30000 XP a character earns past level 20, they receive an epic boon. Epic Boons sort of like feats, but more powerful.
I've read that section. It's weak, in my opinion. I realize it's thin intentionally. Adventuring levels are by far the most interesting, the most exciting; it's why characters don't have Backstory Levels (although I sometimes do that). Epic Boons are more like rewards than advancement. Your character has become the right hand of a demigod and now you can cast Sacred Flame at will 3/day as a bonus action. Or, your eyes glow with an unnatural light, a source of power mortals would dare only visit in their dreams or with friends under firelight and the song of a minstrel.
That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a sourcebook that details Level 20 characters as though that was the new normal. I'm probably going to have to do this with home-brew rules. And I'm sure I'll get a few good ideas out of MToF.
I do not want to stir up a storm or anything, but I personally feel the absence of levels above 20 is a good thing.
Every creature has limitations (as absurd as they might be), and short of actually ascending to godhood, characters as well should have such limitations. Epic Boons are "gifts" bestowed upon the player characters for the deeds they perform, and that allows them to surpass certain limitations they have reached. The endless scaling upwards of character power at the same pace as the normal progression does would effectively make them comparable to gods very quickly, and what would stop them should they decide "hey, we are strongest people around, not even gods can challenge us, how about we conquer one or two planes?
I always found RPG to be interesting when there is struggle, when you always know that behind the next bend of the road there might be someone stronger ready to mop the floor with you. Most level 20 characters already have little to fear from anything that can officially be found in the released material, and the fact that there are creatures with CR above 20 is only to provide some challenge to max level characters as well.
To conclude, endless escalation TO ME seems unnecessary and quite potentially counterproductive and silly after a certain point (I like to call it the Dragon Ball syndrome), but I understand there might be others that like that kind of thing. I personally think, though, that WotC is not really interested in providing anything above level 20 in terms of character options, also considering almost all adventures that came out so far do not even take a character to level 20.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
To conclude, endless escalation TO ME seems unnecessary and quite potentially counterproductive and silly after a certain point (I like to call it the Dragon Ball syndrome), but I understand there might be others that like that kind of thing. I personally think, though, that WotC is not really interested in providing anything above level 20 in terms of character options, also considering almost all adventures that came out so far do not even take a character to level 20.
Personally, if my current campaign makes it to level 20 and the character wish to continue, there will be a point (around the equivalent of 25) that the players have to recruit a new group of adventurers to send on a quest. Then the players will have to create those characters and actually go do that quest. Which would mean I will kind of inherit the original PCs in terms of moving the story along.
And to put this whole conversation into the perspective of the thread; I have every confidence that Fifth Edition will be around long enough for me to need to do this, and then some. I mean, WotC wouldn't have partnered to make this website if they had any kind of inkling they were going to swap out editions in the near future. Having us buy these books digitally, fro many of us a second purchase of these books, just to introduce a new edition to the system would alienate a lot of people back into PF for the second edition, there, lol.
Personally, if my current campaign makes it to level 20 and the character wish to continue, there will be a point (around the equivalent of 25) that the players have to recruit a new group of adventurers to send on a quest. Then the players will have to create those characters and actually go do that quest. Which would mean I will kind of inherit the original PCs in terms of moving the story along.
And to put this whole conversation into the perspective of the thread; I have every confidence that Fifth Edition will be around long enough for me to need to do this, and then some. I mean, WotC wouldn't have partnered to make this website if they had any kind of inkling they were going to swap out editions in the near future. Having us buy these books digitally, fro many of us a second purchase of these books, just to introduce a new edition to the system would alienate a lot of people back into PF for the second edition, there, lol.
I most certainly agree with you that WotC is going to keep 5ed alive for many years to come (I am one of those who got a bit "outraged" when the first post on "what happnes when 6ed comes out" appeared).
Your solution for the possible post-20 is indeed a very nice one (that I will probably steal should I ever find myself in the same situation), but to do that you do not necessarily need levels above 20, I think. 5 Epic Boons already put the characters WAY above anything else around them, so I am not sure 5 more actual levels of class-bound progression are needed, as they might even create many more problems (especially for the DM) than anything else.
One thing I always think when I see people wanting "Epic" levels is: what could you put in the progression of a Wizard beyond lvl 20? More lvl 8 and 9 spell slots? There already is an Epic Boon that gives a second 9th level spell slot, and that alone can already create all sorts of interesting problems for the DM if the Wizard player is a smart one (and if they got to lvl 20, they probably are). There is effectively an Epic Boon for almost any aspect of the game. It's basically a "pick your flavor" level up, end in each one you get something meaningful and that does not risk to make the whole experience absurd (interesting and complicated, sure, but not as absurd as it would be with a power progression similar to what we can see in the 1-20 levels).
But again, it is just my opinion, I am not trying to convince anyone, just speaking my mind on the matter :)
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
My group might be rare but while they enjoy their characters they would be fine with a campaign finishing and another starting with new characters. None of them are screaming for level 21 and higher. Mostly because what else is there to do? When you fight Tiamat or Demogorgon or Tarrasque once you can't keep handing them other legendary monsters to fight because at some point it becomes like why are all of these absurdly powerful creatures popping up and at level 25 and higher even these monsters start becoming easier and easier. So they are happy to get higher than 15 and then if the campaign finishes then great lets start a new one. The real issue story-wise for me at least is if a monster that is powerful enough to go toe to toe with level 20+ characters are just lurking out there why aren't they trying to take over the world or at least nations? And if its creatures like Tiamat or Demogorgon why are groups just now trying to get them to rise one after another? It gets tedious to keep coming up with compelling reasons for these overly powerful monsters to keep appearing to fight an extremely powerful party.
I do not want to stir up a storm or anything, but I personally feel the absence of levels above 20 is a good thing.
Every creature has limitations (as absurd as they might be), and short of actually ascending to godhood, characters as well should have such limitations. Epic Boons are "gifts" bestowed upon the player characters for the deeds they perform, and that allows them to surpass certain limitations they have reached. The endless scaling upwards of character power at the same pace as the normal progression does would effectively make them comparable to gods very quickly, and what would stop them should they decide "hey, we are strongest people around, not even gods can challenge us, how about we conquer one or two planes?
I always found RPG to be interesting when there is struggle, when you always know that behind the next bend of the road there might be someone stronger ready to mop the floor with you. Most level 20 characters already have little to fear from anything that can officially be found in the released material, and the fact that there are creatures with CR above 20 is only to provide some challenge to max level characters as well.
To conclude, endless escalation TO ME seems unnecessary and quite potentially counterproductive and silly after a certain point (I like to call it the Dragon Ball syndrome), but I understand there might be others that like that kind of thing. I personally think, though, that WotC is not really interested in providing anything above level 20 in terms of character options, also considering almost all adventures that came out so far do not even take a character to level 20.
For sure. As far back as I can remember, even the boxed sets really didn't give player characters the option of leveling up to the point of demigod status. And while I understand the Foundation of D&D has always been about camaraderie and the small stories, the game system as a whole resists Power. It isn't heroic, as literature and newspaper headlines across the world have shown us that having too much of it or even enough of it in the wrong hands is lethal. The temptation to be ruthless is available. I was just curious if anyone had any thoughts on a system that incorporated the ideas of Exalted into the game system that started it all.
Part of the reason I suspect that most player characters don't advance beyond Level 10 has less to do with adventures and more to do with providing challenges tailored to characters who have reached that level of skill. 5E seems front heavy, if that makes any sense, for character development. It almost intentionally encourages players to adventure with characters for a short period of time only then to explore other classes, multi-classes, races, and all the variations permitted in the Core Rules and Supplemental Guides. 5E gives the players a wide range of options, and so that alone, I think contributes to the Level 10 threshold.
So often I read blogs or posts suggesting that characters are retired around Level 10 because of boredom or the lack of monster challenges available. The incentives drop off. After Level 10, three Ability Improvement levels remain, in addition to a few more capstone archetype features, and that's about it. Sure, a spell caster can say: Look I can cast all these spells! My spell book is filled with the awesome power of the Weave!
Now what?
Level 20, or even the highest level, to me was never about a class ceiling. The character has achieved all this greatness and now . . . ? The character is on par with demigods, servants (not minions) of deities, peers with a whole new host of creatures.
My group might be rare but while they enjoy their characters they would be fine with a campaign finishing and another starting with new characters. None of them are screaming for level 21 and higher. Mostly because what else is there to do? When you fight Tiamat or Demogorgon or Tarrasque once you can't keep handing them other legendary monsters to fight because at some point it becomes like why are all of these absurdly powerful creatures popping up and at level 25 and higher even these monsters start becoming easier and easier. So they are happy to get higher than 15 and then if the campaign finishes then great lets start a new one. The real issue story-wise for me at least is if a monster that is powerful enough to go toe to toe with level 20+ characters are just lurking out there why aren't they trying to take over the world or at least nations? And if its creatures like Tiamat or Demogorgon why are groups just now trying to get them to rise one after another? It gets tedious to keep coming up with compelling reasons for these overly powerful monsters to keep appearing to fight an extremely powerful party.
Your post reminded me of my old high school group. I ran them through the original Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, and Queen of the Demon Web Pits. Totally epic. After that they were really high level characters. Near Level 16, if I remember correctly. They wanted to continue running their characters, and when they capped out, they still wanted to run their characters. So, I devised a Level System that introduced them to Demigod Levels. By demigod, I mean Hercules. Legends. Advancement was no now longer dependent upon racking up kill scores in the form of experience points, but through subtler means. They had to find commoners willing to follow them. They had to design a few spells specific to their worship. They had to negotiate treaties. They had to build a temple. All sorts of complications presented themselves. Monsters were the least of their worries. And as they gained experience, their followers gained power. This wasn't a SimCity-like style of roleplaying. The characters were affecting the world. Sometimes a lesser god would take note and offer advice for a price. Sometimes an evil deity wanted a character destroyed, and so that became a challenge.
D&D is about the narrative. Not a monster compendium. But I understand your point. The ideas need to be fresh, or at least interesting enough to motivate the players.
I mostly agree. The one cue I wish WotC would take from Paizo is with the accessories. PF kills it with lots of cool stuff: cheap general use maps, minis ranging from flat cardboard, to Wizkids prepainted and unpainted minis (which WotC also does to their credit), to Reaper Bones and Reaper metal minis, etc. The magnetic initiative board is one of my favorite things ever. The spell cards are cool, but PF does item cards. I know I could just make my own, but having something high quality would be awesome. Listen WotC, I'm trying to give you even more money than I already have. GIVE ME STUFF! Not trying to derail the conversation, but I do feel like this fits in to where I'd like to see the future of 5e go lol.
For the most part I think WotC has done a pretty good job for accessories. WizKids is doing both PF and D&D for their painted and unpainted minis and GF9 handles everything from spellcards to miniatures, maps and unique DM screens. GF9 is actually going to do monster stat and item cards some time this year also. About the only thing Paizo does that WotC hasn't gotten someone to do is cardboard minis and the Init screen. Also Reaper is a separate company from WotC and Paizo so their minis would work with either game.
I will say the Init board is something I wish a GF9 would jump onto because it would make make Init easier but honestly at this point a digital init through DnDB seems like something in our future or at least it should be.
Yeah, I use a lot of PF stuff with D&D (including the initiative board), and various other 3rd party things, but I feel like up until recently, minis have been more of an afterthought for WotC. I love both the painted and unpainted ones, but flat minis and more options for higher end ones would be nice :). The GF9 ones are cool, but I feel like there's a middle ground between their resin ones and the unpainted Wizkids ones.
Also, I know Reaper does system agnostic minis, but they do also put out Pathfinder branded ones as well.
Do the flat/cardboard actually sell very well? I know that FLGS aren't the best indicators of sells as some areas and stores are much better than others for gaming but the flats have set on the shelf of my local store for years now.
Honestly though with the exception of the resin, the painted and the unpainted minis I don't know that you will get much more in the way of DnD branded minis. Unless WotC decides to do another contract with someone like Reaper to do metal miniatures or something like that I think WizKids and GF9 is about it. Since WotC doesn't produce their own minis and there really isn't many companies that do miniatures other than WizKids, Reaper and GF9 that this is about it. If you do want something else though why not email Wizkids or GF9 ask for it. They might be more receptive than say WotC.
Personally I would be a fan of metal mins from GF9, their resin is way to fragile for a DM that does any traveling. Amazing detail on their minis but not made for a road DM.
Mordenkainen originates from Greyhawk but the book doesn't take place there.
I'd like to see a sourcebook or guidebook that explores character levels beyond Level 20. In some ways I'd like to see an "overlay" in which the characters enter those character levels with challenge tiers, rather than ability tiers. For example, that ancient red dragon is more than ancient. It has access to powers beyond the Monster Manual. Creatures would still be set in the core rules, but augmented somehow.
I'm tinkering with some home-brew rules right now and if my group survives the overall campaign I've designed I'm throwing them into levels beyond 20.
I won't worry about the next edition. 5e got great reviews and has been around for less time then the less-loved 4e, so it's not going anywhere for a while. In terms of upcoming books, a boy can still dream of a dark sun sourcebook...
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I do not want to stir up a storm or anything, but I personally feel the absence of levels above 20 is a good thing.
Every creature has limitations (as absurd as they might be), and short of actually ascending to godhood, characters as well should have such limitations.
Epic Boons are "gifts" bestowed upon the player characters for the deeds they perform, and that allows them to surpass certain limitations they have reached. The endless scaling upwards of character power at the same pace as the normal progression does would effectively make them comparable to gods very quickly, and what would stop them should they decide "hey, we are strongest people around, not even gods can challenge us, how about we conquer one or two planes?
I always found RPG to be interesting when there is struggle, when you always know that behind the next bend of the road there might be someone stronger ready to mop the floor with you. Most level 20 characters already have little to fear from anything that can officially be found in the released material, and the fact that there are creatures with CR above 20 is only to provide some challenge to max level characters as well.
To conclude, endless escalation TO ME seems unnecessary and quite potentially counterproductive and silly after a certain point (I like to call it the Dragon Ball syndrome), but I understand there might be others that like that kind of thing. I personally think, though, that WotC is not really interested in providing anything above level 20 in terms of character options, also considering almost all adventures that came out so far do not even take a character to level 20.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
5 Epic Boons already put the characters WAY above anything else around them, so I am not sure 5 more actual levels of class-bound progression are needed, as they might even create many more problems (especially for the DM) than anything else.
There is effectively an Epic Boon for almost any aspect of the game. It's basically a "pick your flavor" level up, end in each one you get something meaningful and that does not risk to make the whole experience absurd (interesting and complicated, sure, but not as absurd as it would be with a power progression similar to what we can see in the 1-20 levels).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
My group might be rare but while they enjoy their characters they would be fine with a campaign finishing and another starting with new characters. None of them are screaming for level 21 and higher. Mostly because what else is there to do? When you fight Tiamat or Demogorgon or Tarrasque once you can't keep handing them other legendary monsters to fight because at some point it becomes like why are all of these absurdly powerful creatures popping up and at level 25 and higher even these monsters start becoming easier and easier. So they are happy to get higher than 15 and then if the campaign finishes then great lets start a new one. The real issue story-wise for me at least is if a monster that is powerful enough to go toe to toe with level 20+ characters are just lurking out there why aren't they trying to take over the world or at least nations? And if its creatures like Tiamat or Demogorgon why are groups just now trying to get them to rise one after another? It gets tedious to keep coming up with compelling reasons for these overly powerful monsters to keep appearing to fight an extremely powerful party.
Part of the reason I suspect that most player characters don't advance beyond Level 10 has less to do with adventures and more to do with providing challenges tailored to characters who have reached that level of skill. 5E seems front heavy, if that makes any sense, for character development. It almost intentionally encourages players to adventure with characters for a short period of time only then to explore other classes, multi-classes, races, and all the variations permitted in the Core Rules and Supplemental Guides. 5E gives the players a wide range of options, and so that alone, I think contributes to the Level 10 threshold.
So often I read blogs or posts suggesting that characters are retired around Level 10 because of boredom or the lack of monster challenges available. The incentives drop off. After Level 10, three Ability Improvement levels remain, in addition to a few more capstone archetype features, and that's about it. Sure, a spell caster can say: Look I can cast all these spells! My spell book is filled with the awesome power of the Weave!
Now what?
Level 20, or even the highest level, to me was never about a class ceiling. The character has achieved all this greatness and now . . . ? The character is on par with demigods, servants (not minions) of deities, peers with a whole new host of creatures.
It's next level stuff. That's all.