Yeah, mostly Shove doesn't really do damage, so it tends to lose out in the choice between making an enemy more dead and....not doing that.
That needs to change. If you shove someone on the ground, it ought to do a little damage, and enable the next attack to be at advantage. As a DM, that's how I'd rule it. But again, both as a player and DM, rarely ever see it.
It would be too good of an option if it did damage. The lack of damage is the trade off for making the attempt, and a couple subclasses have features to attempt a knockdown with a conventional attack.
If shoving was an action rather than an attack it could be made stronger (which would make it more viable in tier 1), but once characters have extra attack the current version is viable, just not very strong without additional abilities to enhance it.
In a melee heavy party like mine with 2 fighters and a sword based ranger, level 5 really brings out the beat down with knocking people prone. (Note that my Party is still at level one, so the following is somewhat theoretical.)
With three melee PCs, two of them are always going to be in an initiative order to make things work. So, assuming the first PC succeeds in knocking the enemy prone (maybe with help from Silvery Barbs). That gives three attacks at advantage. If both of them are fighters, Action Surge gives FOUR more attacks at advantage. That's SEVEN attacks total at advantage with a 70% chance one of them will be a critical (if my math is correct).
NOT knocking an enemy prone would give us EIGHT attacks (using Action Surge) without advantage and a 40% chance of a critical.
If all three melee fighters happen to be in a good initiative order, then that's NINE attacks at advantage with a 90% chance of a critical.
Throw in GWM (or even without it), and I don't see how knocking someone prone is bad with this kind of party composition.
Had a couple questions about shove from the use of the Telekenetic feat and whether it can do damage if the target is shoved and is within 5 feet of an object, e.g., wall, rock, etc.
Is there anything in RAW about this?
If there's nothing in RAW about this,
How do DMs rule on whether a target can take damage from a (telekenetic) shove (if they fail their save and they're shoved into an object within 5 ft of them)? If damage is possible, how much damage?
How do DMs rule on whether a target can be (or is always?) knocked prone from a (telekenetic) shove?
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Shoving does not cause damage by itself. The feat does not give it any effect that lets it cause damage. I would not rule that you could use a Telekenetic Shove to cause damage unless you managed to push the target into a damage-dealing effect (such as a Wall of Fire spell or off a cliff) or knock them prone. The feat only lets you move them five feet toward or away from you.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Because TTRPGs unlike CRPGs don't have random instadeath pitfalls on each map.
Also Prone isn't much of a gain as it's advantage to melee and disadvantage to range. There are better ways to give the party advantage. ie Stunned and Restrained.
Had a couple questions about shove from the use of the Telekenetic feat and whether it can do damage if the target is shoved and is within 5 feet of an object, e.g., wall, rock, etc.
Is there anything in RAW about this?
If there's nothing in RAW about this,
How do DMs rule on whether a target can take damage from a (telekenetic) shove (if they fail their save and they're shoved into an object within 5 ft of them)? If damage is possible, how much damage?
How do DMs rule on whether a target can be (or is always?) knocked prone from a (telekenetic) shove?
RAW:
You learn to move things with your mind, granting you the following benefits:
Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You learn the mage hand cantrip. You can cast it without verbal or somatic components, and you can make the spectral hand invisible. If you already know this spell, its range increases by 30 feet when you cast it. Its spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
As a bonus action, you can try to telekinetically shove one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. When you do so, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + the ability modifier of the score increased by this feat) or be moved 5 feet toward you or away from you. A creature can willingly fail this save.
So 5 foot of forced movement, no opportunity attacks, not allowed to move them into an occupied space, lots of nope wont work. But there is a cheese (which is ending with 2024) and that is called the Cheese Grater. You put down a concentration Damage over time AOE ( Spike growth) then you push the enemies into it, then pull them out of it, then push them into it. This combo will be nerfed as soon as the new rules go live. (Colby at D4 made this one popular BTW)
First off, most people don't use strength builds - unless you have several high ability scores, it makes more sense to do a dex build.
Second, knocking an enemy prone is great, if you have multiple attacks and are part rogue - but if you only have 1 attack, and the rest of your party is using ranged weapons, you hurt your group far more than you help it with that tactic.
Third, you're almost never fighting within 5' of a hazard to push people into (and most will actively avoid standing within 5' of any hazard).
Fourth, even with a strength build, monsters tend to have higher strength scores (granted not all have athletics or acrobatics).
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Maybe my party is different but we see this fairly often. At lower levels, we often have a caster use some sort of area control spell like Web or Entangle. One Shove and the bad guy is stuck much of the time. Our DM also likes to have us fight in areas that are not just blank so we like to take the high spot on the stairs and walls. One good Shove and one or more enemies are falling down. We've even had our Bard use a Help Action by tripping the target of the Shove. Bunch of bad guys pouring through the door? Use a table to Shove them down and/or back.
As far as we're concerned, if you've seen it in the movies, you can at least try it.
Any character can replace their Attack Action to try and Shove an enemy in melee range using a contested Athletics check. A character with more than one Attack can substitute a Shove for one Attack. If the attacker fails they lose nothing but the Attack. If they succeed, the enemy either falls Prone or moves back 5 feet.
Why don't all Str-based martial characters use this more? I can see not trying to shove a giant or an Ogre but a Fighter with 3 attacks and GWM can shove the enemy to the ground and then get 2 attacks at Advantage. Anyone else in the party who gets to act before the bad guy can stand can also make melee attacks at Advantage.
Why don't players use this more?
"if they succeed". I like to make gambits on something is 90% sure.
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Standing up doesn't trigger an Attack of Opportunity.
It would be too good of an option if it did damage. The lack of damage is the trade off for making the attempt, and a couple subclasses have features to attempt a knockdown with a conventional attack.
If shoving was an action rather than an attack it could be made stronger (which would make it more viable in tier 1), but once characters have extra attack the current version is viable, just not very strong without additional abilities to enhance it.
In a melee heavy party like mine with 2 fighters and a sword based ranger, level 5 really brings out the beat down with knocking people prone. (Note that my Party is still at level one, so the following is somewhat theoretical.)
With three melee PCs, two of them are always going to be in an initiative order to make things work. So, assuming the first PC succeeds in knocking the enemy prone (maybe with help from Silvery Barbs). That gives three attacks at advantage. If both of them are fighters, Action Surge gives FOUR more attacks at advantage. That's SEVEN attacks total at advantage with a 70% chance one of them will be a critical (if my math is correct).
NOT knocking an enemy prone would give us EIGHT attacks (using Action Surge) without advantage and a 40% chance of a critical.
If all three melee fighters happen to be in a good initiative order, then that's NINE attacks at advantage with a 90% chance of a critical.
Throw in GWM (or even without it), and I don't see how knocking someone prone is bad with this kind of party composition.
Had a couple questions about shove from the use of the Telekenetic feat and whether it can do damage if the target is shoved and is within 5 feet of an object, e.g., wall, rock, etc.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Shoving does not cause damage by itself. The feat does not give it any effect that lets it cause damage. I would not rule that you could use a Telekenetic Shove to cause damage unless you managed to push the target into a damage-dealing effect (such as a Wall of Fire spell or off a cliff) or knock them prone. The feat only lets you move them five feet toward or away from you.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Because TTRPGs unlike CRPGs don't have random instadeath pitfalls on each map.
Also Prone isn't much of a gain as it's advantage to melee and disadvantage to range. There are better ways to give the party advantage. ie Stunned and Restrained.
RAW:
You learn to move things with your mind, granting you the following benefits:
So 5 foot of forced movement, no opportunity attacks, not allowed to move them into an occupied space, lots of nope wont work. But there is a cheese (which is ending with 2024) and that is called the Cheese Grater. You put down a concentration Damage over time AOE ( Spike growth) then you push the enemies into it, then pull them out of it, then push them into it. This combo will be nerfed as soon as the new rules go live. (Colby at D4 made this one popular BTW)
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1azejLmDP8
First off, most people don't use strength builds - unless you have several high ability scores, it makes more sense to do a dex build.
Second, knocking an enemy prone is great, if you have multiple attacks and are part rogue - but if you only have 1 attack, and the rest of your party is using ranged weapons, you hurt your group far more than you help it with that tactic.
Third, you're almost never fighting within 5' of a hazard to push people into (and most will actively avoid standing within 5' of any hazard).
Fourth, even with a strength build, monsters tend to have higher strength scores (granted not all have athletics or acrobatics).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I do not see why its not just a normal attack option for all melee fighters. maybe a str vs dex check. And not an automatic prone condition.
Interesting that you should mention this... looking over at weapon mastery ... Topple as seen on Mauls.
you know this is also weird i never see any players using the disarm action either. that action alone has saved me more times then not tbh.
Maybe my party is different but we see this fairly often. At lower levels, we often have a caster use some sort of area control spell like Web or Entangle. One Shove and the bad guy is stuck much of the time. Our DM also likes to have us fight in areas that are not just blank so we like to take the high spot on the stairs and walls. One good Shove and one or more enemies are falling down. We've even had our Bard use a Help Action by tripping the target of the Shove. Bunch of bad guys pouring through the door? Use a table to Shove them down and/or back.
As far as we're concerned, if you've seen it in the movies, you can at least try it.
"if they succeed". I like to make gambits on something is 90% sure.