So, in Bigby's, there is a mob called the grinning cat... which is very obviously based on the Cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland. Now, I am aware of copy write laws, but the Grinning cat??? That name sucks!!!! I am sure there are many better names for it, but I cant think of any now, so I am calling on the creative minds of D&D beyond put forward there ideas, because I am a person without a life who gets very very agitated with these sorts of tiny things. Thank you :)!
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
There's a tendency towards a default of changing names any time there's a reference to another source. It's unnecessary when the source is public domain, but if you're in the habit of doing it you probably don't think about that.
Also there is only one Cheshire Cat, whereas I believe the grinning cat is a fey species. the description of the jabberwock is unclear, I'd say intentionally ambiguous as to whether it's a singular being or a species.
But that's the whole point of changing the cats name in the first place. No Cheshire in the multiverse, no point of reference for the cat, or the cheese.
I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW. Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia. So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
Just to throw some lore together and see what sticks....
"The Grinning Cats are Fey creatures that come from an area of the Feywild called Chesh Ire. Chesh Ire is a Fey name that translates to the common tongue of the material planes as "City of Legions" and is ruled over by an Archfey known as the Chesh Ire Cat, a spirit like entity that can appear and disappear at will and may appear to visitors fo the Feywild and provide them with rather enigmatic directions, clues and other tidbits of information for seemingly no reason other to to please its own self interests. The number of cat-like creatures in the Chesh Ire region of the Feywild are beyond counting and all types of cat-like creatures maybe found there. Some sages believe the Chesh Ire Cat to be a manifestation or aspect of the the Tabaxi deity known as the Cat Lord and this may account for the Tabaxi general world view. Other Sages believe that Chesh Ire is actualy a moon in the Feywild and they cite folklore of cats that roam the worlds of the material plane at night and can jump through shadows and take people to the moon or use dreams to influence people, these sages also believe that the Chesh Ire Cat is actually a God of Dreams."
There we go, its a bit rough but you can to use it if you like it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
* Need a character idea? Search for "Rob76's Unused" in the Story and Lore section.
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Honestly, I don't think most readers know where Cheshire is (I had to look it up) and think of it as a type name. I don't think people would really even notice Swiss cheese as a problem, and I expect most of them know Switzerland is a place.
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Honestly, I don't think most readers know where Cheshire is (I had to look it up) and think of it as a type name. I don't think people would really even notice Swiss cheese as a problem, and I expect most of them know Switzerland is a place.
Even if most players do not know that Cheshire is a real place, the inclusion of real world geography is immersion breaking to the huge number of players who do know it is a place. The fact some folks lack certain geographic knowledge does not really justify doing something which will inject the real world into the game for the tens of thousands of people who do recognise real-world geography.
This is a Fey creature. No reason to imply it is tied to England. If folks want to call it the Cheshire Cat, they certainly can—but that should not be the game’s official position.
I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW. Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia. So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
According to Ed Greenwood, Earth is in the Multiverse. Elminster visited it several times.
true - It's just Forgotten Realms canon and that`s the reply to Xalthu's thought.
who named anything? And how does that refer to "does earth exist in the DnD Multiverse?"? (And being Elminster, he might have. "Oh, that beast looks like the weird cat from that book i read on earth, let's give it the same name, just for the lulz.") Also, why are there Crocodiles, Horses and Banshees in the Forgotten Realms? And that big Elephant in the room...
I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW. Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia. So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
According to Ed Greenwood, Earth is in the Multiverse. Elminster visited it several times.
That was quietly dropped from the lore by the late 90s, as the setting took on a more serious and less whimsical tone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW. Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia. So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
According to Ed Greenwood, Earth is in the Multiverse. Elminster visited it several times.
Yes, OG Faerûn is an Isekai setting. A huge chunk of gods in the pantheon came from Ancient Earth, as a chunk of ancient Egypt and Babylon came to Toril. According to lore there are ancient gateways from Earth to Toril. Which was why the plot of the 80s cartoon is still basically canon.
Which means the Grinning Cat, a fey creature could easily interact with a young Alice, and due to the nature of "Wonderland" it could easily be a pocket in the Feywild near England.
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I thought that maybe after the Alice in wonder land movies came out, whatever company produced those may hold the copy write to the names and characters, but obviously not. Also, just after posting this I remembered that they kept Jabberwoky in the game, so obviously all this stuff is in the public domain. Also, I am in no way a copy write master.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW. Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia. So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
That's interesting! I had absolutely no clue that "grinning like a Cheshire Cat" was a phrase before the books! The more you know! (by the way I am not being sarcastic here, I genuinely did not know.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I thought that maybe after the Alice in wonder land movies came out, whatever company produced those may hold the copy write to the names and characters, but obviously not. Also, just after posting this I remembered that they kept Jabberwoky in the game, so obviously all this stuff is in the public domain. Also, I am in no way a copy write master.
Alice in Wonderland became public in 1911, and Through the Lookingglass in 1948. You can use the names and characters, but not the art or images from the movies and other games. (note, trying to remove bold has failed me, I should have never copied pasted the 1948 part...blaa)
So, in Bigby's, there is a mob called the grinning cat... which is very obviously based on the Cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland. Now, I am aware of copy write laws, but the Grinning cat??? That name sucks!!!! I am sure there are many better names for it, but I cant think of any now, so I am calling on the creative minds of D&D beyond put forward there ideas, because I am a person without a life who gets very very agitated with these sorts of tiny things. Thank you :)!
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
I rather like it.
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There's a tendency towards a default of changing names any time there's a reference to another source. It's unnecessary when the source is public domain, but if you're in the habit of doing it you probably don't think about that.
They kept Jabberwock so I'm inclined to agree that it's more about Cheshire not being a place in the Forgotten Realms.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
Also there is only one Cheshire Cat, whereas I believe the grinning cat is a fey species. the description of the jabberwock is unclear, I'd say intentionally ambiguous as to whether it's a singular being or a species.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Cheshire is also the name of a cheese, which the Cat might like to eat.
But that's the whole point of changing the cats name in the first place. No Cheshire in the multiverse, no point of reference for the cat, or the cheese.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW.
Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia.
So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
Just to throw some lore together and see what sticks....
"The Grinning Cats are Fey creatures that come from an area of the Feywild called Chesh Ire. Chesh Ire is a Fey name that translates to the common tongue of the material planes as "City of Legions" and is ruled over by an Archfey known as the Chesh Ire Cat, a spirit like entity that can appear and disappear at will and may appear to visitors fo the Feywild and provide them with rather enigmatic directions, clues and other tidbits of information for seemingly no reason other to to please its own self interests. The number of cat-like creatures in the Chesh Ire region of the Feywild are beyond counting and all types of cat-like creatures maybe found there. Some sages believe the Chesh Ire Cat to be a manifestation or aspect of the the Tabaxi deity known as the Cat Lord and this may account for the Tabaxi general world view. Other Sages believe that Chesh Ire is actualy a moon in the Feywild and they cite folklore of cats that roam the worlds of the material plane at night and can jump through shadows and take people to the moon or use dreams to influence people, these sages also believe that the Chesh Ire Cat is actually a God of Dreams."
There we go, its a bit rough but you can to use it if you like it.
Honestly, I don't think most readers know where Cheshire is (I had to look it up) and think of it as a type name. I don't think people would really even notice Swiss cheese as a problem, and I expect most of them know Switzerland is a place.
Even if most players do not know that Cheshire is a real place, the inclusion of real world geography is immersion breaking to the huge number of players who do know it is a place. The fact some folks lack certain geographic knowledge does not really justify doing something which will inject the real world into the game for the tens of thousands of people who do recognise real-world geography.
This is a Fey creature. No reason to imply it is tied to England. If folks want to call it the Cheshire Cat, they certainly can—but that should not be the game’s official position.
According to Ed Greenwood, Earth is in the Multiverse. Elminster visited it several times.
That was quietly dropped from the lore by the late 90s, as the setting took on a more serious and less whimsical tone.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Cheshire is a county in northwest England. The cheese is named for the county, so is the cat.
Yes, OG Faerûn is an Isekai setting. A huge chunk of gods in the pantheon came from Ancient Earth, as a chunk of ancient Egypt and Babylon came to Toril. According to lore there are ancient gateways from Earth to Toril. Which was why the plot of the 80s cartoon is still basically canon.
Which means the Grinning Cat, a fey creature could easily interact with a young Alice, and due to the nature of "Wonderland" it could easily be a pocket in the Feywild near England.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I thought that maybe after the Alice in wonder land movies came out, whatever company produced those may hold the copy write to the names and characters, but obviously not. Also, just after posting this I remembered that they kept Jabberwoky in the game, so obviously all this stuff is in the public domain. Also, I am in no way a copy write master.
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
That's interesting! I had absolutely no clue that "grinning like a Cheshire Cat" was a phrase before the books! The more you know! (by the way I am not being sarcastic here, I genuinely did not know.)
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
Alice in Wonderland became public in 1911, and Through the Lookingglass in 1948. You can use the names and characters, but not the art or images from the movies and other games. (note, trying to remove bold has failed me, I should have never copied pasted the 1948 part...blaa)