Ah, yes, nothing like the argument "bring racism into D&D" to really make it sell well to the same people who made it succeed because they were taking racism out of the game.
Ah yes, nothing like ignoring what was actually written and instead trying to claim it's a "bring racism into D&D" post. Hence why I stated that Dark Sun should not be revamped. It is just not suitable for an audience such as yourself. How you somehow translated that in your mind as being "it should be brought back with extra racism" I will never, nor care to, understand.
The original concept of D&D was as war games. The player characters were meant to be heroes. They existed in a world with outposts remotely resembling civilization surrounded by a persistent potential death and destruction. The NPCs they fought were villains. There was not meant to be any grey area. The goal was not to make the players feel bad for defeating the villain who was really just a victim of society. It was to make them feel like heroes who actually made a difference in their world. Humans, Dwarves and Elves (although Elf was originally a class, not a race) were good. Goblins, Orcs and Drow were bad. End of story. Cries of "<QQ> But that's wacist!! </QQ>" is faux virtue signaling. Of all the races listed, only humans actually exist.
And what you're complaining about isn't really racism. It's tribalism. In the Dark Sun setting the world is decimated and cruel and if you don't work together with your tribe you die. People who are not of your tribe are either a threat or prey. It's not modern day Earth where your day is ruined because you forgot to charge your smartphone and it feels like lack of internet access will kill you. But, again, that is one of the reasons why Dark Suns should not be revamped.
But if your preferred fantasy discrimination is the lazy and overdone classism, then you do you. Let your characters be unhappy because they're the have-nots and then let them work hard and earn their way into the haves and then still be unhappy because now they're what they hated. If that's your idea of fun, go for it. Although I do find it humorous that Dark Suns is a world that hates arcane casters due to their destroying the environment. It's the ultimate classism, it's just not the haves vs have-nots preferred classism.
Ah, yes, nothing like the argument "bring racism into D&D" to really make it sell well to the same people who made it succeed because they were taking racism out of the game.
Ah yes, nothing like ignoring what was actually written and instead trying to claim it's a "bring racism into D&D" post. Hence why I stated that Dark Sun should not be revamped. It is just not suitable for an audience such as yourself. How you somehow translated that in your mind as being "it should be brought back with extra racism" I will never, nor care to, understand.
The original concept of D&D was as war games. The player characters were meant to be heroes. They existed in a world with outposts remotely resembling civilization surrounded by a persistent potential death and destruction. The NPCs they fought were villains. There was not meant to be any grey area. The goal was not to make the players feel bad for defeating the villain who was really just a victim of society. It was to make them feel like heroes who actually made a difference in their world. Humans, Dwarves and Elves (although Elf was originally a class, not a race) were good. Goblins, Orcs and Drow were bad. End of story. Cries of "<QQ> But that's wacist!! </QQ>" is faux virtue signaling. Of all the races listed, only humans actually exist.
And what you're complaining about isn't really racism. It's tribalism. In the Dark Sun setting the world is decimated and cruel and if you don't work together with your tribe you die. People who are not of your tribe are either a threat or prey. It's not modern day Earth where your day is ruined because you forgot to charge your smartphone and it feels like lack of internet access will kill you. But, again, that is one of the reasons why Dark Suns should not be revamped.
But if your preferred fantasy discrimination is the lazy and overdone classism, then you do you. Let your characters be unhappy because they're the have-nots and then let them work hard and earn their way into the haves and then still be unhappy because now they're what they hated. If that's your idea of fun, go for it. Although I do find it humorous that Dark Suns is a world that hates arcane casters due to their destroying the environment. It's the ultimate classism, it's just not the haves vs have-nots preferred classism.
*sigh*
Ok, first off, you said precisely: As a "Survival of the Fittest" world it just doesn't fit with the sensibilities of the portion of the player base that can't/won't separate fictional racism/speciesism from that of the real world.
Yes, you did previously say they shouldn't bring it back. Your basis for that, however, is that it is fun because it has racism.
Net, I never said nor implied that you said it should have more racism. I presumed you meant the explicit degree to which it is currently dealing with such.
Next, and stepping into my professional shoes again for a moment: you cannot separate fictional racism from real racism when you are playign the game in the real world. over a hundred years of research on the topic, and I don't give a rats ass if you don't know about it or understand it, that's a fact and a truth -- if it wasn't, then we wouldn't see the pretend racism o certain people infiltrating the general population in real life.
So that whole line about sensibilite is literally an outright fabrication.
Classism is lazy and overdone? Classism as a primary structure point is the least used of the assorted isms, lol. ESPECIALLY in fantastic lit, although it does do better in"long time from now" sci-fi. Read some more stuff, person!
Also, please don't try to describe tribalism as something other than racism. Because, well, that's part of my area of expertise and I cannot put enough laugh symbols or hilarity into a post here to convey hat hat does to me. I would give you a course, but the last time I did that I was, um, summarily penalized as this is neither the place and it is never the time according to some.
The original concept of D&D was as war games. The player characters were meant to be heroes. They existed in a world with outposts remotely resembling civilization surrounded by a persistent potential death and destruction. The NPCs they fought were villains. There was not meant to be any grey area.
Didn't know much about Arneson's game or how Mystara started out, did ya?
D&D didn't start as a wargame, it evolved from wargames. Minor nitpick, but I am a pedantic little cuss, soo...
Not going to rehash the history of Racism in D&D -- or highlight the still present racism within the game's systems and architecture. You are free to make up as many excuses as you want about "oh, that's not racism", won't change certain facts and I am not here to educate or change your mind about it.
You do you. "the moral arc of history" will do the judging.
The arcane aspect *is* classism. And the have and have nots in that case are the folks with magic (haves) and those withou tit (have-nots) so you kinda undermine your point there. Classism is about the same thing as all the other isms -- power imbalance and systemic oppression, which Dark Sun has in spades and doesn't need the racial aspect for.
You may recall that I said I could fairly easily do a Dark Sun for 5e -- without the racism. Because it isn't hard and it doesn't change it that much. Relying on it is a crutch that makes a game (not just a setting, but a game) less enjoyable for more people.
Thankfully, as I said, not a worry. This dead horse ain't never gonna get water from WotC -- something we agree on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Let's think about Forgotten Realms and the Drow within. The Lolthian Drows are still the evil, racist, sexist creatures they've always been. There's just been added non-Lolthian Drow which are just essentially the same as the Moon Elves. If all we're going to do is make every D&D world essentially the same then why bother to have more than one D&D world?
The Faerun drow really haven't changed much. There were always both redeemed Drow who left Lolth's cult through Eilistraee and those who never joined living in enclaves. Allot of the story conflict with the drow through the editions has revolved around Lolth trying to corrupt these remnants and destroy Eilistraee while she tries to keep as many drow out of her clutches as possible. That said even without all of that they could maintain an identity as under dark elves which is as much of an identity as they other elf sub types which really are just regional variants.
As for all worlds essentially being the same I don't think they've done that. Emphasizing that lolthite drow are specific to a place makes it clearer that drow should not be that in all settings. Lolth is so encompassing aesthetically and behaviorally that if you treat her worshipers as the default template for Drow then allot of home brew Drow are going to end up looking samey. By acknowledging other kinds of dark elves you prompt people to develop those further and with 3 varieties that will be 3 times the variation of lolths cult alone
The original purpose of the Loth-sworn drow was to give the players that "Oh poopy!" reaction when they showed up. The characters would have to deal with enemies that had been being trained for centuries in a designed selection process where only the fittest/cruelest survived. And if they were Eilistraee drow then they were either exceptionally good at hiding or they were someone you really didn't want to mess with, because they have been surviving being hunted by the Lothians for millennia.
As for all worlds essentially being the same I don't think they've done that.
I didn't intend to imply they did. My point was that, if you are going to do that, why bother at all? Hence why I believe WotC's development team should not revamp the Dark Sun setting. There are already multiple worlds to choose from in 5th edition and I think they should put some effort into giving them all more than just one book.
My actual point is that classism is just as much of a crutch as racism is.
Very true, no argument. I even confess to having throw that out with a sense of humor, because it is very much the same thing -- but also to illustrate the point that the racism isn't necessary for the conflict.
But there is also the point hat classism is use far less (particularly economic classism) and there is a real life reason for that that impacts and affects the game directly.
But if you're not trying to educate then what are you doing? Just trying to be argumentative? Well, this is the internet and that's probably its second most popular usage.
Well...
Trying to end an problem that has been a thorn in this site's side for several years comes to mind. I only started being active on the forums recently, and Dark Sun and ASI's have gotten me in more than a little bit of trouble, lol. It is my job to highlight such, to work to create policies, and to reduce unconscious bias and other elements -- both in terms of a smaller scale such as a company, and also at a global scale, such as my work with UNHRC.
As a note, there is a rule here that you cannot speak to the actions of certain people with positions of authority. I mention this because I will not, but suffice to say that I feel your pain and understand your perspective, and I am grateful my many points are currently expired (for however long that may last).
And then I am a person whose entire life has been defined by such -- I am mixed race child of a mixed ace and all of that from before Loving, and then I add extra stuff on top of it. So there is a personal aspect, no doubt, and a degree of knowledge that is comparatively unique regarding it.
Yes, you can indeed separate fictional racism from real world racism. One is imaginary, and again, is actually tribalism. They are two different words for a reason.
Ultimately, it is irrelevant, because as I pointed out, WotC is never going to incorporate overt racism that they are aware of and understand into any product in the foreseeable future. The rationale for why it is useful in a given context doesn't matter -- it is still rationalizing.
The reason that they are doing that is because of more than merely money, as well -- doing so has helped to boost market share, absolutely no doubt, and it has helped to reduce the way that those who have played the game forever and happen to be of those particular groups are treated by their fellow members for "engaging in that racist trash" while also making it more acceptable.
And that means (here's the no money part) more people are playing D&D. Which is a goal that I share with WotC. In part because the racism that was present in the game is part of why I ended up in the field I am in and why my expertise hels.
Simply put: the science fails to support your assertions regarding "separating fantasy from reality". It isn't matter of opinion, itis a known problem and part of the reason we are still rehashing things from 1464 but in modern language *today* in all forms of entertainment and general life.
Tribalism is a concept I will suggest you explore more deeply and come to understand more precisely in how you use it, as the term was co-opted quite some time ago and is no longer used in professional senses by anyone of merit because of that co-opting (and by some time ago I mean the 1950's). Long story, ugly, and is ultimately related to wh Shaman is a problem to use for me (but not for most people).
To claim that they enjoy it as being fun because of the racism is simply you being judgmental based on your preconceived notions of the setting and apparently your profession instincts.
I could give you that, except that you explicitly called it out as a key point of importance -- and, in terms of structural knowledge, the only reason you would do so is if it had some value to you in so doing. As I presume your importance is not the real world impact (because you specifically noted that you see a way of separating the real world and fantasy forms), and therefore it is not because you are attempting to reinforce it out of intention, but rather because you find it has some intrinsic value add that is of great import, and then I factor in the presumptive reason we all play D&D in the first place (which is it is fun).
So: it is important -> it is important for a reason--> that reason is likely because playing in Dark Sun is fun --> Part of the reason it is fun is all these important things --> one of those things is this--> ergo, that is one of the things that makes it fun.
Not often I explain how I figure that stuff out, but I hold neither rancor nor annoyance here, and you are being totally cool and besides I will likely get a ding myself after this.
Lastly:
Cheers for the verbose folks! Without us, how blah would things be!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Just played a dark sun one shot adapted to 5e this weekend. It was super fun. Everything wotc puts out these days is pretty sterile mass market stuff and it was a nice change. Dark sun is kind of niche and features topics we wish didn't exist in real life. It's probably best left out of wotc's portfolio.
Just played a dark sun one shot adapted to 5e this weekend. It was super fun. Everything wotc puts out these days is pretty sterile mass market stuff and it was a nice change. Dark sun is kind of niche and features topics we wish didn't exist in real life. It's probably best left out of wotc's portfolio.
People should honestly be happy that WotC is shying away from the bygone edgelord material. It's fertile ground for up-and-coming adventure designers to make a name for themselves and satisfy that niche demand. And all the folks that want D&D to retain themes like overt racism, biological destiny and chattel slavery will self-select themselves into like-minded groups where they can all play with one another happily - somewhere over there, away from me.
If I remember correctly, because magic was pretty much off limits Dark Sun was a primary setting for Psionics. To really do it again you would need a functioning psionics system and what we have at present doesn’t qualify.
The 4e Dark Sun (which was quite successful) didn't make any real impositions on magic. They just added defiling as a means of making magic more powerful. But I do agree, psionics is integral to the setting. The last time WotC tried a full psionics system, it was so unpopular that the devs probably still lose sleep over it. I don't imagine they're in the mood to give it another go, especially since there's no consensus on what a better system would look like.
4e Dark Sun explicitly bans all Clerics and Paladins (DSCS pg 5), I'd call that an imposition. I agree with you that a full-blown Psionics system again would be a hard sell. Not saying they shouldn't attempt it but I think it's way, way down the priority list.
4e Dark Sun explicitly bans all Clerics and Paladins (DSCS pg 5), I'd call that an imposition. I agree with you that a full-blown Psionics system again would be a hard sell. Not saying they shouldn't attempt it but I think it's way, way down the priority list.
Ah, correct. I had arcane magic on the mind. It is weird that they banned clerics, given there were elemental clerics in 2e, and paladins, given templars.
They've rebooted the major settings: Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, and Planescape. They even hit up the MtG setting they did with the Plane shift series. So it only makes sense they will reboot Dark Sun at some point. Unless they finally work out the legals on Greyhawk or take a leap into the Known World settings like Karameikos!
4e Dark Sun explicitly bans all Clerics and Paladins (DSCS pg 5), I'd call that an imposition. I agree with you that a full-blown Psionics system again would be a hard sell. Not saying they shouldn't attempt it but I think it's way, way down the priority list.
Ah, correct. I had arcane magic on the mind. It is weird that they banned clerics, given there were elemental clerics in 2e, and paladins, given templars.
That's because clerics and paladins work for the Dragon Kings, not real deitys. In 4e they follow this, so there isn't any class that has the divine power as a source power in the world
They've rebooted the major settings: Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, and Planescape. They even hit up the MtG setting they did with the Plane shift series. So it only makes sense they will reboot Dark Sun at some point. Unless they finally work out the legals on Greyhawk or take a leap into the Known World settings like Karameikos!
I think they're fine to use Greyhawk material. Both Bigby and Mordenkainen are Greyhawk characters for example.
I understood that Gygax's second wife owned the rights to several parts of the Greyhawk material and was being difficult about it on the legal side. If not, that's good. 👍
Ah yes, nothing like ignoring what was actually written and instead trying to claim it's a "bring racism into D&D" post. Hence why I stated that Dark Sun should not be revamped. It is just not suitable for an audience such as yourself. How you somehow translated that in your mind as being "it should be brought back with extra racism" I will never, nor care to, understand.
The original concept of D&D was as war games. The player characters were meant to be heroes. They existed in a world with outposts remotely resembling civilization surrounded by a persistent potential death and destruction. The NPCs they fought were villains. There was not meant to be any grey area. The goal was not to make the players feel bad for defeating the villain who was really just a victim of society. It was to make them feel like heroes who actually made a difference in their world. Humans, Dwarves and Elves (although Elf was originally a class, not a race) were good. Goblins, Orcs and Drow were bad. End of story. Cries of "<QQ> But that's wacist!! </QQ>" is faux virtue signaling. Of all the races listed, only humans actually exist.
And what you're complaining about isn't really racism. It's tribalism. In the Dark Sun setting the world is decimated and cruel and if you don't work together with your tribe you die. People who are not of your tribe are either a threat or prey. It's not modern day Earth where your day is ruined because you forgot to charge your smartphone and it feels like lack of internet access will kill you. But, again, that is one of the reasons why Dark Suns should not be revamped.
But if your preferred fantasy discrimination is the lazy and overdone classism, then you do you. Let your characters be unhappy because they're the have-nots and then let them work hard and earn their way into the haves and then still be unhappy because now they're what they hated. If that's your idea of fun, go for it. Although I do find it humorous that Dark Suns is a world that hates arcane casters due to their destroying the environment. It's the ultimate classism, it's just not the haves vs have-nots preferred classism.
*sigh*
Ok, first off, you said precisely: As a "Survival of the Fittest" world it just doesn't fit with the sensibilities of the portion of the player base that can't/won't separate fictional racism/speciesism from that of the real world.
Yes, you did previously say they shouldn't bring it back. Your basis for that, however, is that it is fun because it has racism.
Net, I never said nor implied that you said it should have more racism. I presumed you meant the explicit degree to which it is currently dealing with such.
Next, and stepping into my professional shoes again for a moment: you cannot separate fictional racism from real racism when you are playign the game in the real world. over a hundred years of research on the topic, and I don't give a rats ass if you don't know about it or understand it, that's a fact and a truth -- if it wasn't, then we wouldn't see the pretend racism o certain people infiltrating the general population in real life.
So that whole line about sensibilite is literally an outright fabrication.
Classism is lazy and overdone? Classism as a primary structure point is the least used of the assorted isms, lol. ESPECIALLY in fantastic lit, although it does do better in"long time from now" sci-fi. Read some more stuff, person!
Also, please don't try to describe tribalism as something other than racism. Because, well, that's part of my area of expertise and I cannot put enough laugh symbols or hilarity into a post here to convey hat hat does to me. I would give you a course, but the last time I did that I was, um, summarily penalized as this is neither the place and it is never the time according to some.
Didn't know much about Arneson's game or how Mystara started out, did ya?
D&D didn't start as a wargame, it evolved from wargames. Minor nitpick, but I am a pedantic little cuss, soo...
Not going to rehash the history of Racism in D&D -- or highlight the still present racism within the game's systems and architecture. You are free to make up as many excuses as you want about "oh, that's not racism", won't change certain facts and I am not here to educate or change your mind about it.
You do you. "the moral arc of history" will do the judging.
The arcane aspect *is* classism. And the have and have nots in that case are the folks with magic (haves) and those withou tit (have-nots) so you kinda undermine your point there. Classism is about the same thing as all the other isms -- power imbalance and systemic oppression, which Dark Sun has in spades and doesn't need the racial aspect for.
You may recall that I said I could fairly easily do a Dark Sun for 5e -- without the racism. Because it isn't hard and it doesn't change it that much. Relying on it is a crutch that makes a game (not just a setting, but a game) less enjoyable for more people.
Thankfully, as I said, not a worry. This dead horse ain't never gonna get water from WotC -- something we agree on.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The Faerun drow really haven't changed much. There were always both redeemed Drow who left Lolth's cult through Eilistraee and those who never joined living in enclaves. Allot of the story conflict with the drow through the editions has revolved around Lolth trying to corrupt these remnants and destroy Eilistraee while she tries to keep as many drow out of her clutches as possible. That said even without all of that they could maintain an identity as under dark elves which is as much of an identity as they other elf sub types which really are just regional variants.
As for all worlds essentially being the same I don't think they've done that. Emphasizing that lolthite drow are specific to a place makes it clearer that drow should not be that in all settings. Lolth is so encompassing aesthetically and behaviorally that if you treat her worshipers as the default template for Drow then allot of home brew Drow are going to end up looking samey. By acknowledging other kinds of dark elves you prompt people to develop those further and with 3 varieties that will be 3 times the variation of lolths cult alone
The original purpose of the Loth-sworn drow was to give the players that "Oh poopy!" reaction when they showed up. The characters would have to deal with enemies that had been being trained for centuries in a designed selection process where only the fittest/cruelest survived. And if they were Eilistraee drow then they were either exceptionally good at hiding or they were someone you really didn't want to mess with, because they have been surviving being hunted by the Lothians for millennia.
I didn't intend to imply they did. My point was that, if you are going to do that, why bother at all? Hence why I believe WotC's development team should not revamp the Dark Sun setting. There are already multiple worlds to choose from in 5th edition and I think they should put some effort into giving them all more than just one book.
Very true, no argument. I even confess to having throw that out with a sense of humor, because it is very much the same thing -- but also to illustrate the point that the racism isn't necessary for the conflict.
But there is also the point hat classism is use far less (particularly economic classism) and there is a real life reason for that that impacts and affects the game directly.
Well...
Trying to end an problem that has been a thorn in this site's side for several years comes to mind. I only started being active on the forums recently, and Dark Sun and ASI's have gotten me in more than a little bit of trouble, lol. It is my job to highlight such, to work to create policies, and to reduce unconscious bias and other elements -- both in terms of a smaller scale such as a company, and also at a global scale, such as my work with UNHRC.
As a note, there is a rule here that you cannot speak to the actions of certain people with positions of authority. I mention this because I will not, but suffice to say that I feel your pain and understand your perspective, and I am grateful my many points are currently expired (for however long that may last).
And then I am a person whose entire life has been defined by such -- I am mixed race child of a mixed ace and all of that from before Loving, and then I add extra stuff on top of it. So there is a personal aspect, no doubt, and a degree of knowledge that is comparatively unique regarding it.
Ultimately, it is irrelevant, because as I pointed out, WotC is never going to incorporate overt racism that they are aware of and understand into any product in the foreseeable future. The rationale for why it is useful in a given context doesn't matter -- it is still rationalizing.
The reason that they are doing that is because of more than merely money, as well -- doing so has helped to boost market share, absolutely no doubt, and it has helped to reduce the way that those who have played the game forever and happen to be of those particular groups are treated by their fellow members for "engaging in that racist trash" while also making it more acceptable.
And that means (here's the no money part) more people are playing D&D. Which is a goal that I share with WotC. In part because the racism that was present in the game is part of why I ended up in the field I am in and why my expertise hels.
Simply put: the science fails to support your assertions regarding "separating fantasy from reality". It isn't matter of opinion, itis a known problem and part of the reason we are still rehashing things from 1464 but in modern language *today* in all forms of entertainment and general life.
Tribalism is a concept I will suggest you explore more deeply and come to understand more precisely in how you use it, as the term was co-opted quite some time ago and is no longer used in professional senses by anyone of merit because of that co-opting (and by some time ago I mean the 1950's). Long story, ugly, and is ultimately related to wh Shaman is a problem to use for me (but not for most people).
I could give you that, except that you explicitly called it out as a key point of importance -- and, in terms of structural knowledge, the only reason you would do so is if it had some value to you in so doing. As I presume your importance is not the real world impact (because you specifically noted that you see a way of separating the real world and fantasy forms), and therefore it is not because you are attempting to reinforce it out of intention, but rather because you find it has some intrinsic value add that is of great import, and then I factor in the presumptive reason we all play D&D in the first place (which is it is fun).
So: it is important -> it is important for a reason--> that reason is likely because playing in Dark Sun is fun --> Part of the reason it is fun is all these important things --> one of those things is this--> ergo, that is one of the things that makes it fun.
Not often I explain how I figure that stuff out, but I hold neither rancor nor annoyance here, and you are being totally cool and besides I will likely get a ding myself after this.
Lastly:
Cheers for the verbose folks! Without us, how blah would things be!
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Classism is a more inclusive and less selective form of racism.
Tribalism is a less inclusive and more selective form of racism.
Just depends where and when you fall on the spectrum of correctness as to which is bad and which is less bad.
None will go away they are just shunned from time to time.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Just played a dark sun one shot adapted to 5e this weekend. It was super fun. Everything wotc puts out these days is pretty sterile mass market stuff and it was a nice change. Dark sun is kind of niche and features topics we wish didn't exist in real life. It's probably best left out of wotc's portfolio.
People should honestly be happy that WotC is shying away from the bygone edgelord material. It's fertile ground for up-and-coming adventure designers to make a name for themselves and satisfy that niche demand. And all the folks that want D&D to retain themes like overt racism, biological destiny and chattel slavery will self-select themselves into like-minded groups where they can all play with one another happily - somewhere over there, away from me.
4e Dark Sun explicitly bans all Clerics and Paladins (DSCS pg 5), I'd call that an imposition. I agree with you that a full-blown Psionics system again would be a hard sell. Not saying they shouldn't attempt it but I think it's way, way down the priority list.
Ah, correct. I had arcane magic on the mind. It is weird that they banned clerics, given there were elemental clerics in 2e, and paladins, given templars.
They've rebooted the major settings: Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, and Planescape. They even hit up the MtG setting they did with the Plane shift series. So it only makes sense they will reboot Dark Sun at some point. Unless they finally work out the legals on Greyhawk or take a leap into the Known World settings like Karameikos!
What legals on Greyhawk? They Launch Greyhawk material already
Yeah what legal with grayhawk they own it.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That's because clerics and paladins work for the Dragon Kings, not real deitys. In 4e they follow this, so there isn't any class that has the divine power as a source power in the world
I think they're fine to use Greyhawk material. Both Bigby and Mordenkainen are Greyhawk characters for example.
I understood that Gygax's second wife owned the rights to several parts of the Greyhawk material and was being difficult about it on the legal side. If not, that's good. 👍
this made me laugh a little