So, this thread has had me thinking about ways to address some of this stuff.

right now I am working on vehicles. My approach is likely not the same others would take, but it is being built off the core rules for certain vehicles as published so far, with some odd stuff.

I am adding stats: acceleration, handling, Speed (for round by round), weapon mounts, turn radius

I am adding in actions called Maneuvers: turn (which decelerates), collide (sideswipe), ram, climb, dive (for air and submersible), attack, accelerate, brake.

otherwise, it is much the same as the ships of the saltmarsh stuff or the vehicles of the avernus one. But it also allows for round by round action (hence the Speed score, based on existing stats), and then the trick of it is all into the handling and the Ability checks.

handling is intentionally low: a moving brick has a handling of 0. That is my baseline, drawn from the old “this thing handles like a brick” line.

When making a maneuver, the pilot (driver) makes a roll against a DC determined by the speed and maneuver being done. The Ability decided upon by the DM for piloting/driving is rolled, and the Handling is added to the roll.

If they fail, the maneuver doesn’t happen, and there may be consequences (running into an object, wiping out a cart full of cabbages) depending on the circumstances.

this allows for a chase, lol, where there is an actual speed comparable to the “30” of most PCs for each vehicle, so you can do a round by round chase through winding streets in a carriage, or do a dogfight in midair, or come up beside and board a ship at sea.

And *still* be able to use the vehicles for travel through an environment as per current rules, because I am keeping everything in line with those figures as well.

The actions and speed stuff also led me to develop some rules for running someone over, a “high speed” attack action (weapon and martial, but the catch is the speed has to be 120 or greater), and the “leaping dodge” to get out of the way of a fast moving vehicle, lol.

collision does damage to both vehicles based on speed on a piloting roll, ramming has a standard damage value, and I still have to do improvements and weapons for the weapon mounts.

Thought I would share this little bit here about it.

I also started on a crafting system, but it will be very different from standard, and will be a nightmare since I have to create a ton of materials, lol. Also, breaking it away from the days/GP value stuff, into hours (still can be days, but higher levels reduce time) and including an effect of helpers.

Honestly, doing a competent and fun version of vehicle combat is big enough to be a game all of its own; in a game focused on characters rather than ships, it should probably not be given much more detail than just how it can be used to frame an interesting encounter (with a side note that it might simply not be possible; a fireball is pretty much a fight-ender on a wooden sailing ship).

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Honestly, doing a competent and fun version of vehicle combat is big enough to be a game all of its own; in a game focused on characters rather than ships, it should probably not be given much more detail than just how it can be used to frame an interesting encounter (with a side note that it might simply not be possible; a fireball is pretty much a fight-ender on a wooden sailing ship).

 Well, that is very true — after all, there is Car Wars (is it still around?), lol. That’s the game that put Steve Jackson games on the map, lol.

One of my issues (as in, an issue I have to deal with at my table) is that this next world is a full open world setting, so my players are going to be all over the vehicles (they hate traveling slowly because with me that always means more encounters), and knowing them they are quite likely to decide to try out a bit of piracy if they think they can get away with it. Plus, if they want to join any of the islanders on their trips to Keris, they’ll have to use a submersible.

It was this thread that reminded me of that in part (the other part being they just started a series of adventures that will have them arriving at the Tomb of Annihilation’s location, and while I am not running this part, listening to them is very, very educational, lol.

Interestingly enough, a fireball is not enough to end things with any of the ships from Saltmarsh — they have far too many hit points. But several fireballs, absolutely. A galley has 500 hit Points (although one fireball would crack the damage threshold and so cause some problems). That’s the peculiar thing about D&D. You and i might think about a fire sinking a ship, but the game doesn’t.

And that’s not counting if they had someone work on it to strengthen the Hull. 

So while the game is definitely focused on characters, having a bit of crunch to it allows me to up the stakes and let the players feel a bit more tension and creates drama for them to deal with.  And most of what I am adding is really just tweaks to the existing system — add ons, not changes. For example, Ram is already a mechanic in place. Fire Weapons is as well. THe speed is based on the Travel Pace (direct scale down), and acceleration and braking are simply takes on the “using your speed” rules extant. Even the “run them over” exists in a form in the “demon grinder” rules for Avernus.

Handling is really just giving a way to personalize the action (turn left No, your other left!), and give some answers to questions the gear heads on my crew will ask right off the bat, lol. I have had a “piloting” skill (3, actually, for different kinds of vehicles) for a while, but I presented the outline above so folks don’t have to do that.

The collide and such are mostly for the drama of it — and for that I am drawing from a Carriage chase that sorta showed up out of nowhere in my campaign before last (city based). I was never satisfied with the way I ran that then (the PCs chased a minor villain, literally a “follow that cab” moment) who tried to get away and failed (which was a pain, but, eh, you know players) because it lacked the sense of urgency that comes from such and didn’t have any drama. 

So, not adding much, and all of it has role play basis more than a physical component — so with the basic focus on that, it won’t be a chore. At least not for me, in play.

Hide mechanics, and coverage. Flying.

Quote from Bob_the_fish12 >>

Hide mechanics, and coverage. Flying.

 Can I include the first part in with Stealth, and the second with, um, err, ah…

Flying it is, then, Can I ask you to expand on the problems with flying that you see?

Have to confess, I have long had issues with flying PCs — it is only fairly recently (since 2010 or so) that I have gotten used to them, but I generally treat it as a “walking speed without touching the ground”.

Now that I have a basis for vehicles, though, that could change…

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Bob_the_fish12 >>

Hide mechanics, and coverage. Flying.

 Can I include the first part in with Stealth, and the second with, um, err, ah…

Flying it is, then, Can I ask you to expand on the problems with flying that you see?

Have to confess, I have long had issues with flying PCs — it is only fairly recently (since 2010 or so) that I have gotten used to them, but I generally treat it as a “walking speed without touching the ground”.

Now that I have a basis for vehicles, though, that could change…

 Oh yeah, I main rogue, so it's all about stealth and dm discretion. Even with the new stuff from Tasha's it's more of a work around than anything really.... "Equitable" 

Flying creatures and characters are just a pain in the ass. I know eventually I'm going to need to get some sort of flying representation going for my hand drawn maps, I just loathe the day that comes.

Summation as of 9/12/2023

• Aging rules - difference between an infant and an adult
• Intelligence is a worthless stat
• Perception System
• Stealth & Hide(!)
• Obscuring Rules (link to hide/stealth)
• Improved Economic and Trade systems
• Crafting (!)
• Skill challenges -- multiple roll efforts with a present success/fail ratio
• Chases
• Flying mechanics in a 2D spatial setting
• Strongholds - establishing, taking over, running
• Settlement governing rules - take over a settlement and run it
• Moving up in the world, leadership roles
• Spell Casting if thens
• Spell Casting components
• Psionics (note: this needs to operate in a vein similar to magic, in that it has to have certain rules such as X power does X, and only X)
• Imbalance between nova damage and sustained damage
• Creature sizes
• Minions
• Monster Design
• Monster Roles
• Monster Weaknesses (traditional)
• CR Scaling (So that 1/4 CR can be buffed into a 6 CR)
• CR Transparency
• Transparent Encounter Building
• Cumulative Bonus Limits
• Conditions: Petrification, Paralyzation, limbs going numb, being stock still but not turned to stone

I promised that once they fixed the way that DDB loaded, I would update the list. Well, they did it, so here it is.

I reordered the list according to some kind of sense but don't ask me what.

Most of these are pretty basic fixes, really, from a "theorycrafting" or pure mechanics standpoint. Ther ar plenty of examples or most of them, and D&D has had systems for a lot of it previously. The stuff that leaps out to me as the most involved are the Monster stuff and the Crafting stuff.

I think flying mechanics really need to be looked at more closely, but not in a "create new" so much as "adapt existing", and give that movement tye (along with swimming, burrowing, and such) some additional movement actions while also taking some existing ones way (because they don't operate as well for them).

Stealth/Hide is hard. It means taking an existing system and changing it pretty harshly, impacting spells, combat, perception, and more.

 EDIT: I dropped in an additional one relating to paralyzation and petrification. Right now, paralyze *either* make you collapse as your body stops working *or* it causes you to stop moving. Petrification turns you into something, but doesn't account for being rendered stock still without being turned into something.

THere needs to be a third option in their somewhere.

Multiple rolls for checks? Multiple.rolls is a feature not a flaw. It needs clarification of this. I.e. perception and investigation can overlap and should so that when a skill one is proficient at is equally as viable as one you are not, your players don't suffer for their dump stats. 

Quote from Bob_the_fish12 >>

Multiple rolls for checks? Multiple.rolls is a feature not a flaw. It needs clarification of this. I.e. perception and investigation can overlap and should so that when a skill one is proficient at is equally as viable as one you are not, your players don't suffer for their dump stats. 

 The specific reference is to the multiple rolls to successfully complete a particular task that is difficult -- very much akin to the way that the DMG offers an option for figuring out how alien technology works, which would probably be the best model. It gives a greater sense of drama, and represents a really challenging task that involves a skill. 

Perception is one of the most often used ability skills in the game -- an investigation check is not a part of perception, but the idea is very similar in that while investigating, one would need to make investigation and perception checks. However, investigation is built on the idea of perception and knowledge "in reality" so there is a flaw there.

In my case, my solution was pretty direct: I just made Perception an Ability score and moved a bunch of stuff under it, lol. That wouldn't work for everyone, though -- some folks are very firmly wedded to the "six scores and only six scores" thing. ANd in doing what I did, it meant I examined a lot of of stuff I saw as "oversimplified" and so added several extra Ability Skills.

Oddly enough, that worked out really well for my development of a crafting system, lol. And using a combination of checks when crafting in some cases really puts the sweat into the rolls, lol.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Bob_the_fish12 >>

Multiple rolls for checks? Multiple.rolls is a feature not a flaw. It needs clarification of this. I.e. perception and investigation can overlap and should so that when a skill one is proficient at is equally as viable as one you are not, your players don't suffer for their dump stats. 

 The specific reference is to the multiple rolls to successfully complete a particular task that is difficult -- very much akin to the way that the DMG offers an option for figuring out how alien technology works, which would probably be the best model. It gives a greater sense of drama, and represents a really challenging task that involves a skill. 

Perception is one of the most often used ability skills in the game -- an investigation check is not a part of perception, but the idea is very similar in that while investigating, one would need to make investigation and perception checks. However, investigation is built on the idea of perception and knowledge "in reality" so there is a flaw there.

In my case, my solution was pretty direct: I just made Perception an Ability score and moved a bunch of stuff under it, lol. That wouldn't work for everyone, though -- some folks are very firmly wedded to the "six scores and only six scores" thing. ANd in doing what I did, it meant I examined a lot of of stuff I saw as "oversimplified" and so added several extra Ability Skills.

Oddly enough, that worked out really well for my development of a crafting system, lol. And using a combination of checks when crafting in some cases really puts the sweat into the rolls, lol.

 This is where I run as far away from your games as I can...lol.

I like the overlap of checks for the above reason, and even if you don't like the ambiguity, it affords me some comfort there. 

I think being able to do complicated things requiring multiple checks is ok, but even then I don't mind a stat swapped for a different stat, as long as it makes sense in my mind.

There's other changes to skills I would prefer . 

Quote from Bob_the_fish12 >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Bob_the_fish12 >>

Multiple rolls for checks? Multiple.rolls is a feature not a flaw. It needs clarification of this. I.e. perception and investigation can overlap and should so that when a skill one is proficient at is equally as viable as one you are not, your players don't suffer for their dump stats. 

 The specific reference is to the multiple rolls to successfully complete a particular task that is difficult -- very much akin to the way that the DMG offers an option for figuring out how alien technology works, which would probably be the best model. It gives a greater sense of drama, and represents a really challenging task that involves a skill. 

Perception is one of the most often used ability skills in the game -- an investigation check is not a part of perception, but the idea is very similar in that while investigating, one would need to make investigation and perception checks. However, investigation is built on the idea of perception and knowledge "in reality" so there is a flaw there.

In my case, my solution was pretty direct: I just made Perception an Ability score and moved a bunch of stuff under it, lol. That wouldn't work for everyone, though -- some folks are very firmly wedded to the "six scores and only six scores" thing. ANd in doing what I did, it meant I examined a lot of of stuff I saw as "oversimplified" and so added several extra Ability Skills.

Oddly enough, that worked out really well for my development of a crafting system, lol. And using a combination of checks when crafting in some cases really puts the sweat into the rolls, lol.

 This is where I run as far away from your games as I can...lol.

I like the overlap of checks for the above reason, and even if you don't like the ambiguity, it affords me some comfort there. 

I think being able to do complicated things requiring multiple checks is ok, but even then I don't mind a stat swapped for a different stat, as long as it makes sense in my mind.

There's other changes to skills I would prefer . 

 LOL!

I think you would enjoy my games --there is a difference between all this mechanical crap and actual play that is hard to explain, but really boils down to everything I do is a reaction to what the players do. My dungeons you probably wouldn't like (I am pretty merciless) but the general adventure would likely work for you.

I swap stats for stats all the time, and these multiple roll things are not only already in the game, but are rare events for edge cases or things like crafting. The overlap doesn't bother me, it just "doesn't make sense", so I massaged it a little so it does -- based on players actions and activities.

What other skills would you like to see changed? I was a really, really big fan of Non-weapon proficiency back in the day. Bringing a little of that back but keeping it "simple" is a challenge.

Start by swapping the d20 checks for d% and screw around a bit on the back end. Prof and expert give a bonus to percentage and characters might have to roll something for class skills. 

I should look up other editions more on that. 

Once you widen up the range, you might be able to fit a partial success/fail in better. At least my intuition is telling me something is there.

Multiple rolls for skills/tool use in crafting makes sense to me - there are a lot of ways to mess things up with tools - even if you have some training and skill BTDT.