If you are OK with a Bard going up to an NPC guard to some castle and saying "Let me pass" and think that is reasonable, then equally reasonable is some Hag coming up to the 3rd watch of a party at night and saying "I need your help. Please come with me."
Either of those things could be reasonable, given appropriate setup. If the hag comes up looking like a hag with teeth of iron and carrying a thighbone as a staff... probably not reasonable. If the hag casts disguise self to turn into a helpless old lady or innocent farmgirl... quite possibly. Same sort of thing for the bard, depending on what the bard looks like and what the castle is like.
The thing is, those things are also reasonable with a deception check and no magic at all, and we assume that a second level spell slot is actually doing something of value (otherwise I'll just cast Enhance Ability-Eagle's Splendor).
We are diverging from the original topic, but no, I don't care if a PC (or NPC) rolls a 100 with Persuasion or Deception, some things, in fact, MANY things are simply not possible without magic. Try getting past the Swiss Guard, or the Secret Service, or any bouncer into a really high end night club. There is simply no roll high enough. Now, I thing that Suggestion, and its entire family, are wildly OP, ESPECIALLY as a low level spell. The only logical option is to ban them from the game, or to move them to much higher spells slots.
You want to get past the Swiss Guard to kill the Pope? Well, you are not doing it with Persuasion nor Deception, under any circumstances. And Suggestion STILL makes it trivial. So either ban Suggestion, or make it a 4th or even higher level spell.
Suggestion makes one guard stand aside and occupies your concentration slot. Presumably any significant VIP will have more than one guard and more than one layer of security. It's a useful tool, but it's not exactly hard for a DM to plan around when it comes to direct combat. Heck, using your example of the Pope, what class do you think the local equivalents of the Swiss guards will be? Hint, it's the ones who will have very high WIS saves and- depending on the subclass- outright immunity to the spell. Banning it from the game is a massive overreaction, and imo a bit of a flag that a DM has a very specific idea of how the campaign's story should proceed.
The point you seem to be avoiding is that D&D is designed so that it's up to the DM if something sounds reasonable or not.
No, the point isn't that it's up to the DM to decide whether something sounds reasonable. The point is that they don't even give you any guidelines for what the word means.
Does it mean "someone could be talked into doing it without magic?" Or does it mean something more impressive than that?
If you are OK with a Bard going up to an NPC guard to some castle and saying "Let me pass" and think that is reasonable, then equally reasonable is some Hag coming up to the 3rd watch of a party at night and saying "I need your help. Please come with me."
Either of those things could be reasonable, given appropriate setup. If the hag comes up looking like a hag with teeth of iron and carrying a thighbone as a staff... probably not reasonable. If the hag casts disguise self to turn into a helpless old lady or innocent farmgirl... quite possibly. Same sort of thing for the bard, depending on what the bard looks like and what the castle is like.
The thing is, those things are also reasonable with a deception check and no magic at all, and we assume that a second level spell slot is actually doing something of value (otherwise I'll just cast Enhance Ability-Eagle's Splendor).
We are diverging from the original topic, but no, I don't care if a PC (or NPC) rolls a 100 with Persuasion or Deception, some things, in fact, MANY things are simply not possible without magic. Try getting past the Swiss Guard, or the Secret Service, or any bouncer into a really high end night club. There is simply no roll high enough. Now, I thing that Suggestion, and its entire family, are wildly OP, ESPECIALLY as a low level spell. The only logical option is to ban them from the game, or to move them to much higher spells slots.
You want to get past the Swiss Guard to kill the Pope? Well, you are not doing it with Persuasion nor Deception, under any circumstances. And Suggestion STILL makes it trivial. So either ban Suggestion, or make it a 4th or even higher level spell.
Suggestion makes one guard stand aside and occupies your concentration slot. Presumably any significant VIP will have more than one guard and more than one layer of security. It's a useful tool, but it's not exactly hard for a DM to plan around when it comes to direct combat. Heck, using your example of the Pope, what class do you think the local equivalents of the Swiss guards will be? Hint, it's the ones who will have very high WIS saves and- depending on the subclass- outright immunity to the spell. Banning it from the game is a massive overreaction, and imo a bit of a flag that a DM has a very specific idea of how the campaign's story should proceed.
NPC guards with immunity to Charm spells....talk about gaming the system against that family of spells. If a DM is going to go through those gyrations, for a low level guard, just say it. That is the equivalent of banning the spell.
Uh, your example was Swiss guards for the Pope. Those guys aren't rent-a-cops, they're professional security. That's high CR, not 1/8 CR cannon fodder. My point was that it's not hard to prevent a single low level spell from nuking a major obstacle. Even with regular guards, it's quite badly stymied if there's two or three in the same place at the same time. You do something that looks like placing a spell on one, and you can bet the alarm's going to be raised.
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
If you are OK with a Bard going up to an NPC guard to some castle and saying "Let me pass" and think that is reasonable, then equally reasonable is some Hag coming up to the 3rd watch of a party at night and saying "I need your help. Please come with me."
Either of those things could be reasonable, given appropriate setup. If the hag comes up looking like a hag with teeth of iron and carrying a thighbone as a staff... probably not reasonable. If the hag casts disguise self to turn into a helpless old lady or innocent farmgirl... quite possibly. Same sort of thing for the bard, depending on what the bard looks like and what the castle is like.
The thing is, those things are also reasonable with a deception check and no magic at all, and we assume that a second level spell slot is actually doing something of value (otherwise I'll just cast Enhance Ability-Eagle's Splendor).
We are diverging from the original topic, but no, I don't care if a PC (or NPC) rolls a 100 with Persuasion or Deception, some things, in fact, MANY things are simply not possible without magic. Try getting past the Swiss Guard, or the Secret Service, or any bouncer into a really high end night club. There is simply no roll high enough. Now, I thing that Suggestion, and its entire family, are wildly OP, ESPECIALLY as a low level spell. The only logical option is to ban them from the game, or to move them to much higher spells slots.
You want to get past the Swiss Guard to kill the Pope? Well, you are not doing it with Persuasion nor Deception, under any circumstances. And Suggestion STILL makes it trivial. So either ban Suggestion, or make it a 4th or even higher level spell.
Suggestion makes one guard stand aside and occupies your concentration slot. Presumably any significant VIP will have more than one guard and more than one layer of security. It's a useful tool, but it's not exactly hard for a DM to plan around when it comes to direct combat. Heck, using your example of the Pope, what class do you think the local equivalents of the Swiss guards will be? Hint, it's the ones who will have very high WIS saves and- depending on the subclass- outright immunity to the spell. Banning it from the game is a massive overreaction, and imo a bit of a flag that a DM has a very specific idea of how the campaign's story should proceed.
NPC guards with immunity to Charm spells....talk about gaming the system against that family of spells. If a DM is going to go through those gyrations, for a low level guard, just say it. That is the equivalent of banning the spell.
Uh, your example was Swiss guards for the Pope. Those guys aren't rent-a-cops, they're professional security. That's high CR, not 1/8 CR cannon fodder. My point was that it's not hard to prevent a single low level spell from nuking a major obstacle. Even with regular guards, it's quite badly stymied if there's two or three in the same place at the same time. You do something that looks like placing a spell on one, and you can bet the alarm's going to be raised.
They are indeed highly trained. But just how high a CR are you thinking? But if you are saying the guards (let alone the BBEG's) are high CR's, it tracks that the PC's are high levels. Now we are into Hypnotic Pattern, and the entire argument begins again, just with higher levels involved. I stand by my statement. A particular family of spells is just flat out bad for the game. Banning them makes it better for the entire game, and if banned, the DM does not have to game systems to deal with them, and players don't have to deal with them being used against them.
Hypnotic Pattern has the same inherent weakness; charm immunity stops it, and it's targeting a save that Paladins have prof in. And making a spell not an instant win in certain situations is not a ban, it's basic game design to challenge the party. I can also say with confidence that trying to hit 3+ targets with Hypnotic Pattern pretty much inevitably means at least one enemy will make the save in any case. If you struggle so much with these spells, I would honestly say that it's more a matter of you having a rigid concept of how to design encounters.
Just my two cents, you guys are getting lost in the trees. Ultimately it's a DM call, and what you set sets a precedent for later. So, like my example is two conflicting rules regarding a character's damage resistance, does magic damage pierce, or is it resisted? In my case I had to make the call based on, do I want this guy to be magic resistant for the rest of the... Ever? No. So I made a call based on group and game stability.
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Not sure what you getting at, but as I said before, if a DM creates NPC's/monsters that are geared to counter particular spells, and family of spells, because a PC, or group of PC's, keep using them, then banning those spells is easier. I know what your counter argument to that is. Throwing a set of fire immune monsters at a wizard who is fire-based IS different.
And frankly, I don't have the time nor inclination to build NPC's/monsters that are low level smucks but somehow designed to combat I-win buttons. I have more important things to do with my DM time. I have said this now for the 3rd time. Either accept the fact that both the PC's and NPC's have the ability shut down encounters with a single Wisdom save failure, or do the smart thing, and ban said mechanics. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Charm Person etc etc etc are shutdown spells. Get rid of them. And have DM's get the spine to say "Sorry, I don't care if your Bard rolled a 32 on Persuasion, this low level guard is not letting you pass."
The point is that these guards are not "low level schmucks". If they're low level schmucks, then there's no need for any countermeasures to be in play because they're not meant to be a significant obstacle in the first place. You initially posited here that the existence of the Suggestion spell made the defense of an extremely high profile VIP impossible. The rebuttals are aimed at the point that if you want to have a significant obstacle, then it is not hard to work in answers to a 2nd level spell. Charm spells are not hard shutdown spells; Charm Person and Suggestion are limited social spells if the target(s) don't make their save, and it is not hard to manage encounters so that they are not the instant win buttons you purport them to be. Hypnotic Pattern as an attempt to bypass guards is honestly less effective than Sleep, imo, and once again it's not hard to work in some speed bumps if you think it's getting too much mileage. You are, of course, free to do what you want at your own table, but asserting these spells are so OP that the only proper course of action any DM should take is banning them comes across as a rather narrow-minded and authoritarian approach to DMing.
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Not sure what you getting at, but as I said before, if a DM creates NPC's/monsters that are geared to counter particular spells, and family of spells, because a PC, or group of PC's, keep using them, then banning those spells is easier. I know what your counter argument to that is. Throwing a set of fire immune monsters at a wizard who is fire-based IS different.
And frankly, I don't have the time nor inclination to build NPC's/monsters that are low level smucks but somehow designed to combat I-win buttons. I have more important things to do with my DM time. I have said this now for the 3rd time. Either accept the fact that both the PC's and NPC's have the ability shut down encounters with a single Wisdom save failure, or do the smart thing, and ban said mechanics. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Charm Person etc etc etc are shutdown spells. Get rid of them. And have DM's get the spine to say "Sorry, I don't care if your Bard rolled a 32 on Persuasion, this low level guard is not letting you pass."
Odd, I never mentioned "creating NPCs to counter particular spells".
I find hilarious that you say "ban spells". Because I have found that banning spells makes everything much more difficult. I have exactly one spell "banned". The others are strongly suggested they not be used, because they come with a price most PCs won't be willing to pay, and cannot be used in combat because they are only available as ritual spells (and not the 10 minute kind).
The one spell I have banned is Wish -- and then only as a spell. They are still out there.
Let's look at some other odd quirks of my game, shall we?
You can't cast a spell in secret. Anyone casting a spell has a lightshow to go with it. Officially, all Enchantment spells are illegal, according to the laws of the major cities. All of them. Yes, even those really helpful ones. And it isn't because of any "game breaking" or even an attempt to limit their use -- it is because they were key to a rebellion. OH, and spell damage? It is a simple system that makes all spells of a certain spell level use the same damage die, and the number of dice is determined by the caster's level. Oh, and some spells take more than 1 turn to cast, and others you have to focus on, and defense stuff can be overwhelmed and...
I probably have more magical items on my world than you do yours. In the hands of everyday, common, ordinary people. Wands, amulets, charms, jewelry. Lots of people have them. Ordinary people. Lots. It wouldn't be unusual for Fritz to have an amulet of resistance to lightning, for example. Probably picked it up from a witch living in that copse outside of town over the hill a ways. He probably wears it on a thong around his neck. Or maybe his Granny heard an old prophecy about it from some Oracle and picked it up for him. He might not even know that's what it does.
I mean, granted, he's Fritz on my world, so he's probably got around 30 HP, an AC of 16 (which, given there is no full plate anywhere to be found, is a big deal), has versatility and finesse on his Glaive, knows how to use a Shortsword more than passably well, and if he's a Sibolan Guard, he's got one of those damned giant shields, as well. If he's been in the Guard for a bit, he may have done a stint in the Crusades, and is grateful to have something as easy and pleasant as Guard Duty -- sweet money, and all he has to do is keep people out.
Max? Max is the same -- he didn't get to be a member of the Sibolan Guard by being all that much a waste, after all. They have standards, they have training. Max has a low Wisdom, though, so if one was going to aim a suggestion spell at one of them, it would be Max. Too bad suggestion only works on one person (mass suggestion is a different spell, after all).
Huh, seems like I have a wonderful lock on that stuff -- both Max and Fritz are going to see someone casting a spell, for one, and if Fritz sees max acting odd, he's going to do something. And these are "low level schmucks" after all -- I mean, they aren't some farmer's kid standing a watch at the village road he doesn't want to be on, or a Farmer whose taking his turn in a hamlet watch.
Time? Inclination? You don't have to have them. However, you are, as a result, treating your players like children, imo. Taking away their toys, not bothering to challenge them with actually interesting variations. I mean, hey, murder hobos in my game don't give a damn either way, lol, they still gonna chop stuff up, and there ain't nothing wrong with running a pure murder hobo game., but even murderhobos like the things they chop to, you know, not always be the exact same thing.
You can't be arsed to do the thing every single module WotC puts out does. And that's fine -- its your game, and my opinion means zero in your game, so o biggie.
And I know I'm different -- hell, I make them follow old 1e rules that I never used when I ran 1e -- the whole "you start with a handful of spells -- after that, you have to find them" thing. And I give them a lot of spells over the next several levels. Like, a lot a lot. So I have a lot of control over what spells the party has -- but I roll randomly to determine, lol. unless it is a spell they will need should they happen to keep following the thread they are currently on.
Look at how I responded to the OP. You'll have to flip back a bit. I have zero problems with any of the enchantment spells. Or, for that matter, pretty much any other spell. None of them are going to "shut down" an encounter -- if they did, it would be poor planning on *my* part.
A "low level" guard for me is around 4th level. Wanna know how long it took me to create a basic Sibolan guard? Less than 5 minutes.Took me about 10 to create the Captain that is in charge of a shift -- because they have a lot more features. Stat blocks are fast, easy, and simple -- hella easier than creating a character, that's for damn sure.
That you don't have time to do that isn't my problem. But, as is obvious, in my opinion, it is a problem for your players. Because they are missing out on just how creative you could be in your pathfinder D&D 5e game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
No, the point isn't that it's up to the DM to decide whether something sounds reasonable. The point is that they don't even give you any guidelines for what the word means.
Does it mean "someone could be talked into doing it without magic?" Or does it mean something more impressive than that?
Except they actually give examples in the spell's description. And it is and always has been up to the DM to interpret the results of every attempted player action in D&D. But sure, if you want to argue forever that it's not clear enough for you then have fun with it.
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Not sure what you getting at, but as I said before, if a DM creates NPC's/monsters that are geared to counter particular spells, and family of spells, because a PC, or group of PC's, keep using them, then banning those spells is easier. I know what your counter argument to that is. Throwing a set of fire immune monsters at a wizard who is fire-based IS different.
And frankly, I don't have the time nor inclination to build NPC's/monsters that are low level smucks but somehow designed to combat I-win buttons. I have more important things to do with my DM time. I have said this now for the 3rd time. Either accept the fact that both the PC's and NPC's have the ability shut down encounters with a single Wisdom save failure, or do the smart thing, and ban said mechanics. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Charm Person etc etc etc are shutdown spells. Get rid of them. And have DM's get the spine to say "Sorry, I don't care if your Bard rolled a 32 on Persuasion, this low level guard is not letting you pass."
Odd, I never mentioned "creating NPCs to counter particular spells".
I find hilarious that you say "ban spells". Because I have found that banning spells makes everything much more difficult. I have exactly one spell "banned". The others are strongly suggested they not be used, because they come with a price most PCs won't be willing to pay, and cannot be used in combat because they are only available as ritual spells (and not the 10 minute kind).
The one spell I have banned is Wish -- and then only as a spell. They are still out there.
Let's look at some other odd quirks of my game, shall we?
You can't cast a spell in secret. Anyone casting a spell has a lightshow to go with it. Officially, all Enchantment spells are illegal, according to the laws of the major cities. All of them. Yes, even those really helpful ones. And it isn't because of any "game breaking" or even an attempt to limit their use -- it is because they were key to a rebellion. OH, and spell damage? It is a simple system that makes all spells of a certain spell level use the same damage die, and the number of dice is determined by the caster's level. Oh, and some spells take more than 1 turn to cast, and others you have to focus on, and defense stuff can be overwhelmed and...
I probably have more magical items on my world than you do yours. In the hands of everyday, common, ordinary people. Wands, amulets, charms, jewelry. Lots of people have them. Ordinary people. Lots. It wouldn't be unusual for Fritz to have an amulet of resistance to lightning, for example. Probably picked it up from a witch living in that copse outside of town over the hill a ways. He probably wears it on a thong around his neck. Or maybe his Granny heard an old prophecy about it from some Oracle and picked it up for him. He might not even know that's what it does.
I mean, granted, he's Fritz on my world, so he's probably got around 30 HP, an AC of 16 (which, given there is no full plate anywhere to be found, is a big deal), has versatility and finesse on his Glaive, knows how to use a Shortsword more than passably well, and if he's a Sibolan Guard, he's got one of those damned giant shields, as well. If he's been in the Guard for a bit, he may have done a stint in the Crusades, and is grateful to have something as easy and pleasant as Guard Duty -- sweet money, and all he has to do is keep people out.
Max? Max is the same -- he didn't get to be a member of the Sibolan Guard by being all that much a waste, after all. They have standards, they have training. Max has a low Wisdom, though, so if one was going to aim a suggestion spell at one of them, it would be Max. Too bad suggestion only works on one person (mass suggestion is a different spell, after all).
Huh, seems like I have a wonderful lock on that stuff -- both Max and Fritz are going to see someone casting a spell, for one, and if Fritz sees max acting odd, he's going to do something. And these are "low level schmucks" after all -- I mean, they aren't some farmer's kid standing a watch at the village road he doesn't want to be on, or a Farmer whose taking his turn in a hamlet watch.
Time? Inclination? You don't have to have them. However, you are, as a result, treating your players like children, imo. Taking away their toys, not bothering to challenge them with actually interesting variations. I mean, hey, murder hobos in my game don't give a damn either way, lol, they still gonna chop stuff up, and there ain't nothing wrong with running a pure murder hobo game., but even murderhobos like the things they chop to, you know, not always be the exact same thing.
You can't be arsed to do the thing every single module WotC puts out does. And that's fine -- its your game, and my opinion means zero in your game, so o biggie.
And I know I'm different -- hell, I make them follow old 1e rules that I never used when I ran 1e -- the whole "you start with a handful of spells -- after that, you have to find them" thing. And I give them a lot of spells over the next several levels. Like, a lot a lot. So I have a lot of control over what spells the party has -- but I roll randomly to determine, lol. unless it is a spell they will need should they happen to keep following the thread they are currently on.
Look at how I responded to the OP. You'll have to flip back a bit. I have zero problems with any of the enchantment spells. Or, for that matter, pretty much any other spell. None of them are going to "shut down" an encounter -- if they did, it would be poor planning on *my* part.
A "low level" guard for me is around 4th level. Wanna know how long it took me to create a basic Sibolan guard? Less than 5 minutes.Took me about 10 to create the Captain that is in charge of a shift -- because they have a lot more features. Stat blocks are fast, easy, and simple -- hella easier than creating a character, that's for damn sure.
That you don't have time to do that isn't my problem. But, as is obvious, in my opinion, it is a problem for your players. Because they are missing out on just how creative you could be in your pathfinder D&D 5e game.
Don't know what to tell you. If you think a guard at the main gate of the castle of the BBEG would be 4th level., I wonder what you consider an appropriate level would be for the inner sanctum, let alone the BBEG.
All depends on the level of the party. By tier 2, you're getting into that neighborhood.
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Not sure what you getting at, but as I said before, if a DM creates NPC's/monsters that are geared to counter particular spells, and family of spells, because a PC, or group of PC's, keep using them, then banning those spells is easier. I know what your counter argument to that is. Throwing a set of fire immune monsters at a wizard who is fire-based IS different.
And frankly, I don't have the time nor inclination to build NPC's/monsters that are low level smucks but somehow designed to combat I-win buttons. I have more important things to do with my DM time. I have said this now for the 3rd time. Either accept the fact that both the PC's and NPC's have the ability shut down encounters with a single Wisdom save failure, or do the smart thing, and ban said mechanics. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Charm Person etc etc etc are shutdown spells. Get rid of them. And have DM's get the spine to say "Sorry, I don't care if your Bard rolled a 32 on Persuasion, this low level guard is not letting you pass."
Odd, I never mentioned "creating NPCs to counter particular spells".
I find hilarious that you say "ban spells". Because I have found that banning spells makes everything much more difficult. I have exactly one spell "banned". The others are strongly suggested they not be used, because they come with a price most PCs won't be willing to pay, and cannot be used in combat because they are only available as ritual spells (and not the 10 minute kind).
The one spell I have banned is Wish -- and then only as a spell. They are still out there.
Let's look at some other odd quirks of my game, shall we?
You can't cast a spell in secret. Anyone casting a spell has a lightshow to go with it. Officially, all Enchantment spells are illegal, according to the laws of the major cities. All of them. Yes, even those really helpful ones. And it isn't because of any "game breaking" or even an attempt to limit their use -- it is because they were key to a rebellion. OH, and spell damage? It is a simple system that makes all spells of a certain spell level use the same damage die, and the number of dice is determined by the caster's level. Oh, and some spells take more than 1 turn to cast, and others you have to focus on, and defense stuff can be overwhelmed and...
I probably have more magical items on my world than you do yours. In the hands of everyday, common, ordinary people. Wands, amulets, charms, jewelry. Lots of people have them. Ordinary people. Lots. It wouldn't be unusual for Fritz to have an amulet of resistance to lightning, for example. Probably picked it up from a witch living in that copse outside of town over the hill a ways. He probably wears it on a thong around his neck. Or maybe his Granny heard an old prophecy about it from some Oracle and picked it up for him. He might not even know that's what it does.
I mean, granted, he's Fritz on my world, so he's probably got around 30 HP, an AC of 16 (which, given there is no full plate anywhere to be found, is a big deal), has versatility and finesse on his Glaive, knows how to use a Shortsword more than passably well, and if he's a Sibolan Guard, he's got one of those damned giant shields, as well. If he's been in the Guard for a bit, he may have done a stint in the Crusades, and is grateful to have something as easy and pleasant as Guard Duty -- sweet money, and all he has to do is keep people out.
Max? Max is the same -- he didn't get to be a member of the Sibolan Guard by being all that much a waste, after all. They have standards, they have training. Max has a low Wisdom, though, so if one was going to aim a suggestion spell at one of them, it would be Max. Too bad suggestion only works on one person (mass suggestion is a different spell, after all).
Huh, seems like I have a wonderful lock on that stuff -- both Max and Fritz are going to see someone casting a spell, for one, and if Fritz sees max acting odd, he's going to do something. And these are "low level schmucks" after all -- I mean, they aren't some farmer's kid standing a watch at the village road he doesn't want to be on, or a Farmer whose taking his turn in a hamlet watch.
Time? Inclination? You don't have to have them. However, you are, as a result, treating your players like children, imo. Taking away their toys, not bothering to challenge them with actually interesting variations. I mean, hey, murder hobos in my game don't give a damn either way, lol, they still gonna chop stuff up, and there ain't nothing wrong with running a pure murder hobo game., but even murderhobos like the things they chop to, you know, not always be the exact same thing.
You can't be arsed to do the thing every single module WotC puts out does. And that's fine -- its your game, and my opinion means zero in your game, so o biggie.
And I know I'm different -- hell, I make them follow old 1e rules that I never used when I ran 1e -- the whole "you start with a handful of spells -- after that, you have to find them" thing. And I give them a lot of spells over the next several levels. Like, a lot a lot. So I have a lot of control over what spells the party has -- but I roll randomly to determine, lol. unless it is a spell they will need should they happen to keep following the thread they are currently on.
Look at how I responded to the OP. You'll have to flip back a bit. I have zero problems with any of the enchantment spells. Or, for that matter, pretty much any other spell. None of them are going to "shut down" an encounter -- if they did, it would be poor planning on *my* part.
A "low level" guard for me is around 4th level. Wanna know how long it took me to create a basic Sibolan guard? Less than 5 minutes.Took me about 10 to create the Captain that is in charge of a shift -- because they have a lot more features. Stat blocks are fast, easy, and simple -- hella easier than creating a character, that's for damn sure.
That you don't have time to do that isn't my problem. But, as is obvious, in my opinion, it is a problem for your players. Because they are missing out on just how creative you could be in your pathfinder D&D 5e game.
Don't know what to tell you. If you think a guard at the main gate of the castle of the BBEG would be 4th level., I wonder what you consider an appropriate level would be for the inner sanctum, let alone the BBEG.
If the BBEG is a Pope level equivalent on my world, that would be a Bishop, and they are going to be a Grand Master Cleric, essentially -- somewhere between 17th and 20th level.
THey will have attendants (other clerics, who will be at least Masters (13th to 16th level), as well as a host of lesser folks. LIkely a bodyguard in the form of a Paladin, probably two, also at least a Master level. Adept level (9th to 12th) Clerics will be handling most of the regular, normal clerical duties, and they will have aid from others.
Which is not to say that there aren't Priests who haven't been granted power, mind you, from the being they serve. Lots of folks there. But if you want to be a leader, you have to at least be able to prove yourself.
That, of course, assumes that someone wanting to attack the Bishop has been baptized as a follower of that Power, of course, and plans to attack the on Temple Grounds. If they haven't been baptized, then they are going to have to wait for him to leave. Because if you haven't been baptized, you can't set foot on the sacred ground (even if you try to teleport or go through a dimensional gate).
So then you have the group with him, like a Master level cleric and a couple of Paladin guards. Much easier. Which he knows. And if he's the BBEG, then he expects that. He doesn't suffer any of the limitations there. Probably has someone arrange for teleportation, or maybe a special Mirror or who knows -- he's going to have ways to get around in secret.
So, you might hate to see, but now you have.
Wait until you find out that there's a grand Master Blacksmith who makes armor for someone, or a Yeoman Instrumentalist who has a brand new lyre his Master just approved and is planning to step out on his own.
I have been working on this world for five years, lol. I even created a second world, created a campaign for it, and ran that campaign while working on this world -- three years of it. And I started this about a year before the campaign before that ended.
CHanges the math, doesn't it? My players know they have a challenge when they decide to do such things. THey understand they have to be creative, inventive, and more than just murderhobos -- while still have a chance to be murderhobos.
What good is a guard that can't actually guard? What good is a challenge if it doesn't actually challenge? 12 year olds get this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Not sure what you getting at, but as I said before, if a DM creates NPC's/monsters that are geared to counter particular spells, and family of spells, because a PC, or group of PC's, keep using them, then banning those spells is easier. I know what your counter argument to that is. Throwing a set of fire immune monsters at a wizard who is fire-based IS different.
And frankly, I don't have the time nor inclination to build NPC's/monsters that are low level smucks but somehow designed to combat I-win buttons. I have more important things to do with my DM time. I have said this now for the 3rd time. Either accept the fact that both the PC's and NPC's have the ability shut down encounters with a single Wisdom save failure, or do the smart thing, and ban said mechanics. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Charm Person etc etc etc are shutdown spells. Get rid of them. And have DM's get the spine to say "Sorry, I don't care if your Bard rolled a 32 on Persuasion, this low level guard is not letting you pass."
Odd, I never mentioned "creating NPCs to counter particular spells".
I find hilarious that you say "ban spells". Because I have found that banning spells makes everything much more difficult. I have exactly one spell "banned". The others are strongly suggested they not be used, because they come with a price most PCs won't be willing to pay, and cannot be used in combat because they are only available as ritual spells (and not the 10 minute kind).
The one spell I have banned is Wish -- and then only as a spell. They are still out there.
Let's look at some other odd quirks of my game, shall we?
You can't cast a spell in secret. Anyone casting a spell has a lightshow to go with it. Officially, all Enchantment spells are illegal, according to the laws of the major cities. All of them. Yes, even those really helpful ones. And it isn't because of any "game breaking" or even an attempt to limit their use -- it is because they were key to a rebellion. OH, and spell damage? It is a simple system that makes all spells of a certain spell level use the same damage die, and the number of dice is determined by the caster's level. Oh, and some spells take more than 1 turn to cast, and others you have to focus on, and defense stuff can be overwhelmed and...
I probably have more magical items on my world than you do yours. In the hands of everyday, common, ordinary people. Wands, amulets, charms, jewelry. Lots of people have them. Ordinary people. Lots. It wouldn't be unusual for Fritz to have an amulet of resistance to lightning, for example. Probably picked it up from a witch living in that copse outside of town over the hill a ways. He probably wears it on a thong around his neck. Or maybe his Granny heard an old prophecy about it from some Oracle and picked it up for him. He might not even know that's what it does.
I mean, granted, he's Fritz on my world, so he's probably got around 30 HP, an AC of 16 (which, given there is no full plate anywhere to be found, is a big deal), has versatility and finesse on his Glaive, knows how to use a Shortsword more than passably well, and if he's a Sibolan Guard, he's got one of those damned giant shields, as well. If he's been in the Guard for a bit, he may have done a stint in the Crusades, and is grateful to have something as easy and pleasant as Guard Duty -- sweet money, and all he has to do is keep people out.
Max? Max is the same -- he didn't get to be a member of the Sibolan Guard by being all that much a waste, after all. They have standards, they have training. Max has a low Wisdom, though, so if one was going to aim a suggestion spell at one of them, it would be Max. Too bad suggestion only works on one person (mass suggestion is a different spell, after all).
Huh, seems like I have a wonderful lock on that stuff -- both Max and Fritz are going to see someone casting a spell, for one, and if Fritz sees max acting odd, he's going to do something. And these are "low level schmucks" after all -- I mean, they aren't some farmer's kid standing a watch at the village road he doesn't want to be on, or a Farmer whose taking his turn in a hamlet watch.
Time? Inclination? You don't have to have them. However, you are, as a result, treating your players like children, imo. Taking away their toys, not bothering to challenge them with actually interesting variations. I mean, hey, murder hobos in my game don't give a damn either way, lol, they still gonna chop stuff up, and there ain't nothing wrong with running a pure murder hobo game., but even murderhobos like the things they chop to, you know, not always be the exact same thing.
You can't be arsed to do the thing every single module WotC puts out does. And that's fine -- its your game, and my opinion means zero in your game, so o biggie.
And I know I'm different -- hell, I make them follow old 1e rules that I never used when I ran 1e -- the whole "you start with a handful of spells -- after that, you have to find them" thing. And I give them a lot of spells over the next several levels. Like, a lot a lot. So I have a lot of control over what spells the party has -- but I roll randomly to determine, lol. unless it is a spell they will need should they happen to keep following the thread they are currently on.
Look at how I responded to the OP. You'll have to flip back a bit. I have zero problems with any of the enchantment spells. Or, for that matter, pretty much any other spell. None of them are going to "shut down" an encounter -- if they did, it would be poor planning on *my* part.
A "low level" guard for me is around 4th level. Wanna know how long it took me to create a basic Sibolan guard? Less than 5 minutes.Took me about 10 to create the Captain that is in charge of a shift -- because they have a lot more features. Stat blocks are fast, easy, and simple -- hella easier than creating a character, that's for damn sure.
That you don't have time to do that isn't my problem. But, as is obvious, in my opinion, it is a problem for your players. Because they are missing out on just how creative you could be in your pathfinder D&D 5e game.
Don't know what to tell you. If you think a guard at the main gate of the castle of the BBEG would be 4th level., I wonder what you consider an appropriate level would be for the inner sanctum, let alone the BBEG.
If the BBEG is a Pope level equivalent on my world, that would be a Bishop, and they are going to be a Grand Master Cleric, essentially -- somewhere between 17th and 20th level.
THey will have attendants (other clerics, who will be at least Masters (13th to 16th level), as well as a host of lesser folks. LIkely a bodyguard in the form of a Paladin, probably two, also at least a Master level. Adept level (9th to 12th) Clerics will be handling most of the regular, normal clerical duties, and they will have aid from others.
Which is not to say that there aren't Priests who haven't been granted power, mind you, from the being they serve. Lots of folks there. But if you want to be a leader, you have to at least be able to prove yourself.
That, of course, assumes that someone wanting to attack the Bishop has been baptized as a follower of that Power, of course, and plans to attack the on Temple Grounds. If they haven't been baptized, then they are going to have to wait for him to leave. Because if you haven't been baptized, you can't set foot on the sacred ground (even if you try to teleport or go through a dimensional gate).
So then you have the group with him, like a Master level cleric and a couple of Paladin guards. Much easier. Which he knows. And if he's the BBEG, then he expects that. He doesn't suffer any of the limitations there. Probably has someone arrange for teleportation, or maybe a special Mirror or who knows -- he's going to have ways to get around in secret.
So, you might hate to see, but now you have.
Wait until you find out that there's a grand Master Blacksmith who makes armor for someone, or a Yeoman Instrumentalist who has a brand new lyre his Master just approved and is planning to step out on his own.
I have been working on this world for five years, lol. I even created a second world, created a campaign for it, and ran that campaign while working on this world -- three years of it. And I started this about a year before the campaign before that ended.
CHanges the math, doesn't it? My players know they have a challenge when they decide to do such things. THey understand they have to be creative, inventive, and more than just murderhobos -- while still have a chance to be murderhobos.
What good is a guard that can't actually guard? What good is a challenge if it doesn't actually challenge? 12 year olds get this.
Yeah, I don't play with PC's that are high enough to deal with 20th level NPC's. Because the game is so hopelessly broken by tier 3. But if that is your frame of reference, Suggestion is not even a spell on ANYONE's radar, PC or NPC.
Not quite true. Suggestion is a lower level spell -- those get a lot more use in my game because they are lower resource use. In the last campaign, I had level 20 spell casters tossing suggestion at low level demons left and right, lol. It was great fun. Use too many higher spell levels, and you can pass out. Not good in a combat situation. Best stay within the lower level spells.
But, more importantly, you raised the question of "what if they went after a Pope and the Pope's guard. That's *your* example. I was providing a basis for your point of reference in my games.
I seriously doubt a group of characters who are still Novices (level 1 to 4) are going to try and kill a Bishop. I doubt that a group of Yeoman PCs (5th to 8th level) are going to try, either -- even if he or she is being a dick about things.
No, they are going to be running into the forest on some Guild task for coin, or tugging on a pot thread, or doing more training, or whatever -- open world.
One of the big keys to playing in an open world is knowing when you are outmatched -- and the DM ain't tellin.
In my game, when you travel across country, you might pack animal friendship in your kit. You might hold onto suggestion for bandits or brigands, you may need to strong arm a caravan master stressed about the timetable to slow down so you can take out the dreadnaught that's tracking you.
Ok, so, yeah, suggestion isn't going to do you much good against an ancient construct, but it could help on the caravan master.
And all of those are well within the "usual use case" for Players.
And bad guys have the same limits -- just because those 2nd level characters run into an 8th level merchant doing dirty deals doesn't mean he won't use suggestion on them to keep them out of his business.
All my campaigns run into the highest tiers. I routinely have 17 to 20 thl level characters at the end points of campaigns, because I build the campaign to get there. Been doing that for 20 years. longer, even, though not always on purpose, lol.
I haven't found the game to be hopelessly broken -- I have found that a lot of DMs don't really know how to run a high level game -- what the stakes are, how to use monsters, how to provide rewards, That isn't a fault of the game, though.
That's just inexperience.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Suggestion makes one guard stand aside and occupies your concentration slot. Presumably any significant VIP will have more than one guard and more than one layer of security. It's a useful tool, but it's not exactly hard for a DM to plan around when it comes to direct combat. Heck, using your example of the Pope, what class do you think the local equivalents of the Swiss guards will be? Hint, it's the ones who will have very high WIS saves and- depending on the subclass- outright immunity to the spell. Banning it from the game is a massive overreaction, and imo a bit of a flag that a DM has a very specific idea of how the campaign's story should proceed.
No, the point isn't that it's up to the DM to decide whether something sounds reasonable. The point is that they don't even give you any guidelines for what the word means.
Does it mean "someone could be talked into doing it without magic?" Or does it mean something more impressive than that?
Uh, your example was Swiss guards for the Pope. Those guys aren't rent-a-cops, they're professional security. That's high CR, not 1/8 CR cannon fodder. My point was that it's not hard to prevent a single low level spell from nuking a major obstacle. Even with regular guards, it's quite badly stymied if there's two or three in the same place at the same time. You do something that looks like placing a spell on one, and you can bet the alarm's going to be raised.
In a world where PCs can create their own damn amulets, charms, and whatnots, do people really, genuinely think that the only possible shit they will encounter is stuff that's written out already in a Monster book somewhere?
Seriously?
Again, I get that some folks have a complete hate on for everything having to do with D&D for some reason, and just want to wail on it, but the idea that the default "go to" for a guard is some little noob who's helmet falls off half the time and whose sword needs a good grindstone is the only possible way to make a guard for the head of an entire church (that, presumably, has freaking clerics working for him) because that's the only guard type in a book is ludicrous and asinine.
And I say that and I am well aware that folks will think "well, I guess I have to roll up a character" for an unnamed NPC who doesn't matter just because they are more than normal, and don't understand how monsters work or how there is an entirely separate system for all the DM side stuff (the Monster stat block is a DM's character sheet, after all) because that's all they think to do in that moment and there's never really been a lot of support for creating such things.
NPCs should not be Fritz and Max from Wizards or some faceless, nameless Stormtrooper from Star Wars.
I pity players who have to deal with that level of NPC, because their DM, imo/ime, is treating them like children.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Hypnotic Pattern has the same inherent weakness; charm immunity stops it, and it's targeting a save that Paladins have prof in. And making a spell not an instant win in certain situations is not a ban, it's basic game design to challenge the party. I can also say with confidence that trying to hit 3+ targets with Hypnotic Pattern pretty much inevitably means at least one enemy will make the save in any case. If you struggle so much with these spells, I would honestly say that it's more a matter of you having a rigid concept of how to design encounters.
Just my two cents, you guys are getting lost in the trees. Ultimately it's a DM call, and what you set sets a precedent for later. So, like my example is two conflicting rules regarding a character's damage resistance, does magic damage pierce, or is it resisted? In my case I had to make the call based on, do I want this guy to be magic resistant for the rest of the... Ever? No. So I made a call based on group and game stability.
The point is that these guards are not "low level schmucks". If they're low level schmucks, then there's no need for any countermeasures to be in play because they're not meant to be a significant obstacle in the first place. You initially posited here that the existence of the Suggestion spell made the defense of an extremely high profile VIP impossible. The rebuttals are aimed at the point that if you want to have a significant obstacle, then it is not hard to work in answers to a 2nd level spell. Charm spells are not hard shutdown spells; Charm Person and Suggestion are limited social spells if the target(s) don't make their save, and it is not hard to manage encounters so that they are not the instant win buttons you purport them to be. Hypnotic Pattern as an attempt to bypass guards is honestly less effective than Sleep, imo, and once again it's not hard to work in some speed bumps if you think it's getting too much mileage. You are, of course, free to do what you want at your own table, but asserting these spells are so OP that the only proper course of action any DM should take is banning them comes across as a rather narrow-minded and authoritarian approach to DMing.
Odd, I never mentioned "creating NPCs to counter particular spells".
I find hilarious that you say "ban spells". Because I have found that banning spells makes everything much more difficult. I have exactly one spell "banned". The others are strongly suggested they not be used, because they come with a price most PCs won't be willing to pay, and cannot be used in combat because they are only available as ritual spells (and not the 10 minute kind).
The one spell I have banned is Wish -- and then only as a spell. They are still out there.
Let's look at some other odd quirks of my game, shall we?
You can't cast a spell in secret. Anyone casting a spell has a lightshow to go with it. Officially, all Enchantment spells are illegal, according to the laws of the major cities. All of them. Yes, even those really helpful ones. And it isn't because of any "game breaking" or even an attempt to limit their use -- it is because they were key to a rebellion. OH, and spell damage? It is a simple system that makes all spells of a certain spell level use the same damage die, and the number of dice is determined by the caster's level. Oh, and some spells take more than 1 turn to cast, and others you have to focus on, and defense stuff can be overwhelmed and...
I probably have more magical items on my world than you do yours. In the hands of everyday, common, ordinary people. Wands, amulets, charms, jewelry. Lots of people have them. Ordinary people. Lots. It wouldn't be unusual for Fritz to have an amulet of resistance to lightning, for example. Probably picked it up from a witch living in that copse outside of town over the hill a ways. He probably wears it on a thong around his neck. Or maybe his Granny heard an old prophecy about it from some Oracle and picked it up for him. He might not even know that's what it does.
I mean, granted, he's Fritz on my world, so he's probably got around 30 HP, an AC of 16 (which, given there is no full plate anywhere to be found, is a big deal), has versatility and finesse on his Glaive, knows how to use a Shortsword more than passably well, and if he's a Sibolan Guard, he's got one of those damned giant shields, as well. If he's been in the Guard for a bit, he may have done a stint in the Crusades, and is grateful to have something as easy and pleasant as Guard Duty -- sweet money, and all he has to do is keep people out.
Max? Max is the same -- he didn't get to be a member of the Sibolan Guard by being all that much a waste, after all. They have standards, they have training. Max has a low Wisdom, though, so if one was going to aim a suggestion spell at one of them, it would be Max. Too bad suggestion only works on one person (mass suggestion is a different spell, after all).
Huh, seems like I have a wonderful lock on that stuff -- both Max and Fritz are going to see someone casting a spell, for one, and if Fritz sees max acting odd, he's going to do something. And these are "low level schmucks" after all -- I mean, they aren't some farmer's kid standing a watch at the village road he doesn't want to be on, or a Farmer whose taking his turn in a hamlet watch.
Time? Inclination? You don't have to have them. However, you are, as a result, treating your players like children, imo. Taking away their toys, not bothering to challenge them with actually interesting variations. I mean, hey, murder hobos in my game don't give a damn either way, lol, they still gonna chop stuff up, and there ain't nothing wrong with running a pure murder hobo game., but even murderhobos like the things they chop to, you know, not always be the exact same thing.
You can't be arsed to do the thing every single module WotC puts out does. And that's fine -- its your game, and my opinion means zero in your game, so o biggie.
And I know I'm different -- hell, I make them follow old 1e rules that I never used when I ran 1e -- the whole "you start with a handful of spells -- after that, you have to find them" thing. And I give them a lot of spells over the next several levels. Like, a lot a lot. So I have a lot of control over what spells the party has -- but I roll randomly to determine, lol. unless it is a spell they will need should they happen to keep following the thread they are currently on.
Look at how I responded to the OP. You'll have to flip back a bit. I have zero problems with any of the enchantment spells. Or, for that matter, pretty much any other spell. None of them are going to "shut down" an encounter -- if they did, it would be poor planning on *my* part.
A "low level" guard for me is around 4th level. Wanna know how long it took me to create a basic Sibolan guard? Less than 5 minutes.Took me about 10 to create the Captain that is in charge of a shift -- because they have a lot more features. Stat blocks are fast, easy, and simple -- hella easier than creating a character, that's for damn sure.
That you don't have time to do that isn't my problem. But, as is obvious, in my opinion, it is a problem for your players. Because they are missing out on just how creative you could be in your p
athfinderD&D 5e game.Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Except they actually give examples in the spell's description. And it is and always has been up to the DM to interpret the results of every attempted player action in D&D. But sure, if you want to argue forever that it's not clear enough for you then have fun with it.
All depends on the level of the party. By tier 2, you're getting into that neighborhood.
If the BBEG is a Pope level equivalent on my world, that would be a Bishop, and they are going to be a Grand Master Cleric, essentially -- somewhere between 17th and 20th level.
THey will have attendants (other clerics, who will be at least Masters (13th to 16th level), as well as a host of lesser folks. LIkely a bodyguard in the form of a Paladin, probably two, also at least a Master level. Adept level (9th to 12th) Clerics will be handling most of the regular, normal clerical duties, and they will have aid from others.
Which is not to say that there aren't Priests who haven't been granted power, mind you, from the being they serve. Lots of folks there. But if you want to be a leader, you have to at least be able to prove yourself.
That, of course, assumes that someone wanting to attack the Bishop has been baptized as a follower of that Power, of course, and plans to attack the on Temple Grounds. If they haven't been baptized, then they are going to have to wait for him to leave. Because if you haven't been baptized, you can't set foot on the sacred ground (even if you try to teleport or go through a dimensional gate).
So then you have the group with him, like a Master level cleric and a couple of Paladin guards. Much easier. Which he knows. And if he's the BBEG, then he expects that. He doesn't suffer any of the limitations there. Probably has someone arrange for teleportation, or maybe a special Mirror or who knows -- he's going to have ways to get around in secret.
So, you might hate to see, but now you have.
Wait until you find out that there's a grand Master Blacksmith who makes armor for someone, or a Yeoman Instrumentalist who has a brand new lyre his Master just approved and is planning to step out on his own.
I have been working on this world for five years, lol. I even created a second world, created a campaign for it, and ran that campaign while working on this world -- three years of it. And I started this about a year before the campaign before that ended.
CHanges the math, doesn't it? My players know they have a challenge when they decide to do such things. THey understand they have to be creative, inventive, and more than just murderhobos -- while still have a chance to be murderhobos.
What good is a guard that can't actually guard? What good is a challenge if it doesn't actually challenge? 12 year olds get this.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Not quite true. Suggestion is a lower level spell -- those get a lot more use in my game because they are lower resource use. In the last campaign, I had level 20 spell casters tossing suggestion at low level demons left and right, lol. It was great fun. Use too many higher spell levels, and you can pass out. Not good in a combat situation. Best stay within the lower level spells.
But, more importantly, you raised the question of "what if they went after a Pope and the Pope's guard. That's *your* example. I was providing a basis for your point of reference in my games.
I seriously doubt a group of characters who are still Novices (level 1 to 4) are going to try and kill a Bishop. I doubt that a group of Yeoman PCs (5th to 8th level) are going to try, either -- even if he or she is being a dick about things.
No, they are going to be running into the forest on some Guild task for coin, or tugging on a pot thread, or doing more training, or whatever -- open world.
One of the big keys to playing in an open world is knowing when you are outmatched -- and the DM ain't tellin.
In my game, when you travel across country, you might pack animal friendship in your kit. You might hold onto suggestion for bandits or brigands, you may need to strong arm a caravan master stressed about the timetable to slow down so you can take out the dreadnaught that's tracking you.
Ok, so, yeah, suggestion isn't going to do you much good against an ancient construct, but it could help on the caravan master.
And all of those are well within the "usual use case" for Players.
And bad guys have the same limits -- just because those 2nd level characters run into an 8th level merchant doing dirty deals doesn't mean he won't use suggestion on them to keep them out of his business.
All my campaigns run into the highest tiers. I routinely have 17 to 20 thl level characters at the end points of campaigns, because I build the campaign to get there. Been doing that for 20 years. longer, even, though not always on purpose, lol.
I haven't found the game to be hopelessly broken -- I have found that a lot of DMs don't really know how to run a high level game -- what the stakes are, how to use monsters, how to provide rewards, That isn't a fault of the game, though.
That's just inexperience.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It only has to SOUND reasonable, it doesn’t have to BE reasonable.