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Quote from kayakingpoodle >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

A good system  has to account for creature size (which is currently borked in 2014 version) down to roughly a cubic inch, and moves on up to the rough equivalent of 600 feet, including creature size, volume, mass, weight, and similar systems.

The same issue applies to temperature and windspeed, for example, though I suspect a lot of folks don't think about such things.

All of these factors have an impact on both rules and general lore -- the 4e system has some great usefulness, but actually fell apart when dealing with smaller sizes or very large sizes.

The "its easy to learn a new system" is incorrect. For some it can be, if they have a frame of reference, but for others it is not. That would include a system within the game itself.

I use a 3' grid in my games, because a 5' grid actually treats a smaller character species poorly mechanically. It also allows me to scale more efficiently for sizing across the board (with, oddly enough, 10' being the only "problem", but treated as 9' for the most part).

I work with both Imperial and Metric systems in my daily life, so 2 pounds for kilos and 30 cm for a foot is usually about the simplest of conversions on the fly, and rely on a common foundation of multiplication that is easy to do in a game setting. 

Much of this is being mooted by the use of VTTs for a lot of the newer, younger folks, however, since they tend to use those. THose who still have practical minis and don't operate by TotM, are the ones in a hard baot -- but also, I do think that DDB itself should have a toggle between metric and imperial. It would make a lot of things very interesting, and should be fairly easy to do programatically, although it would mean going through everything in the source code and setting up a special field for measurements (so while easy, it would be very laborious).

 

 

 Your post proves the point I am making, you modified the rules to make it easier for you. Problem solved.

 
Not really. 

My solution for my game doesn't do diddly squat for the folks using a metric system and trying to play the game using DDB. My rues changes mean that I can't use DDB for my players to store and record characters, for example, which is what the folks wanting that ability to toggle are looking for.

So it didn't solve the problem. It made it simpler for me, in my games, to calculate game system ranges and sizes -- but my system still relies on a foot instead of a meter, so how that magically solves the problem is kinda beyond me.

 You brought your system to the debate, I was pointing out that it isn't hard to make the game work for you if you don't like RAW or, specifically to this thread, units as written, your HB world is proof that the game can be modified. Complicate it or simplify it make it yours subbing the metric for the imperial is not a giant task, it is not difficult. 1ft = 0.3048m I would wager the problem isn't the foot, the problem is the after the conversion numbers are not whole. 

At any rate I am done beating this particular horse would you like to use my club?

No, I brought my own, but thank you for the offer. It is a very nice club, though.

The point of the thread, however, is the creation of new units, that would presumably be structured so that DDB and the printed books would all use the same overall system, and the point of our small sidebar is about the nature and challenge of using DDB (so, a published product) with a system that enables ease of play.

My solution is so much more complex (lol -- I did mention that I create my own measurement systems, did I not?) but mentioned because someone had talked about a 5' baseline (similar to the 4e approach) ad I wanted to point out how that doesn't work either.

I mean, I cold, of course, just sit down and design a new measurement system for the game from scratch that meets the assorted needs -- but the issue isn't what I design or you design, it is what WotC designs, lol.

huh. I think the horse twitched. Could just be nerves firing...

unrelated to your post but related to the following one:

One does math using maths. neener neener

Begun, the Big Unit Waving Wars Have

But seriously, I don't think creating an entirely different measurement system that's neither English or Metric is really going to solve the problem of unfamiliar units.  I think this may be one among a number of reasons some contemporary TTRPGs have opted for "range bands" instead of specific measurements, and I'm sure there are 5e variants out there that have experimented with it, but I think the design team producing the game is overwhelmingly based in the English measurement system, so we have what we have.  

Quote from kayakingpoodle >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from kayakingpoodle >>

I have never really understood the want for one system over the other in any aspect. I find it vexing that people can accept all other facets of a fantasy game but the units of measurement are a problem. 

 
Given that the US is one of a handful of nations that do not use the Metric System, we are in a minority, and our systems do not have a nice, simple basis to understand and are difficult to convert from or to for the vast majority of the world.

It isn't about the fantasy, it is about converting feet to meters for the rules themselves. quick, how big in feet, without having to pull up a calculator is 3 meters?

How many meters tall is a human? How many liters to a gallon?

Having to look all this stuff up slows down play, makes playing much harder to do, and more -- because the only people who are taught feet and inches these days are the folks in that handful of countries.

To them, the rules may as well say "so, your character is 9 gabledon tall and weighs 223 grumulkin". How many inches is a gabledon? what is a grmulkin?

That's what it is like playing the game when you aren't from the US.

 Many of the countries that use the metric system market tv and monitor screen size in inches don't they? (it has been a while since I last shopped for a tv in a metric country) Multiple systems of measurement are used globally and converted between constantly. It is far easier to learn a new measurement system than a language and there are more languages than measurement systems. But this is not really the point the point is it can easily be changed at the table all that is required is agreement on the base unit dimension and a simple conversion factor. Which is quite easy, 1 foot can be represented by a d6, or the width of a spoon, grain of rice, or anything. I use many systems and convert between them very easily. Why is there no metric time, metric nautical mile, metric karat et al?

Feet and meters is not a difficult conversion even in a pencil and paper game. Not to mention a simple offset house rule that 10 ft is going to be 3 meters is not game breaking so long as it is a constant. I just don't see a problem and wouldn't if in was in meters instead of feet, or gabledons. It isn't like being off a foot or 2 is going to cause the game to fall apart. If that is the case break out the digital calipers and micrometers along with a calculator and get down to the 1/2 a ten thousands of your foot,inch/meter,cm.

The metric system has it's draw backs, base 10 is not very friendly when you dividing things by numbers other than a few numbers things start getting messy and then people start rounding. if your gonna round then 10 feet is pretty close to a meter and 120 feet is pretty close to 36 meters. there just aren't that many distances to to remember or make a cheat sheet for if you need meters to visualize a distance.

10ft = 3m, 20ft=6m, 30ft=9m, 60ft=18m, 80ft=24, 120ft=36m, 320ft=98m 600ft=180m that set should get you through most ranged weapon attacks. 

Again I just don't see what the big deal is when it can be fixed so easily at the table. 

 

 
Screen size is one of the few things measured in inches here, this is true... But, I dont believe anyone really understands what 27 inches means in terms of size, its just a reference point so that you can compare it to the 24 inch display.. I dont think bringing up screen being in inches is a good reason not to convert the DnD ruleset for metric countries... If I could magically change it so that screen sizes were in metric, Id absolutely do it.

And while yea, its not difficult to sit down and say "3ft is roughly 1 meter", its cumbersome in actual play and it puts a significant extra step between us and the games rules and the games world.

A glass bottle in 5e can hold "1 1/2 pints" and weighs "2 lbs"... I genuinely dont have any idea what that means if i dont google it... As I believe AEDorsey mentioned earlier, they may as well hold "42 kvabites" and weigh "3 minibobs". It doesnt make the game unplayable, but it means that I dont really understand the dimensions and the measurements of the world on an instinctive level.

A table can agree on conversions, but that takes quite a bit of effort to effectively use, an effort that shouldve been done by WoTC, considering the huge amount of customers they have who metric users.

One thing to think of, presuming the largest D&D market being English language is likely going to stay a fact of the D&D market for the foreseeable future, they're just not going to _print_ two separate sets of rules conforming to localized measurement standards.  I know folks like to think this stuff is "just push a button" but in pushing that button there's now two separate print runs for every product to follow.  If D&D were purely a digital product maybe that toggle would be a thing, but D&D even in the upcoming revision, it's clear the foundation of the game will still be physical books, the digital tools being predicated upon those physical books.

Quote from MidnightPlat >>

I think this may be one among a number of reasons some contemporary TTRPGs have opted for "range bands" instead of specific measurements, and I'm sure there are 5e variants out there that have experimented with it, but I think the design team producing the game is overwhelmingly based in the English measurement system, so we have what we have.  

 Maybe. I'd assumed that it was due to it being simpler. The two other systems I play uses zones, and it really speeds up combat. Like, an unbelievable amount. It doesn't have to deal with the detail-centric spells that 5e does though. With the detailed spells, you have to work with measurements,  but since they don't have that same baggage so zones can work well, zones are much better than feet and inches. I wouldn't alter them to reintroduce measurements for the sake of it.

Quote from Linklite >>

Quote from MidnightPlat >>

I think this may be one among a number of reasons some contemporary TTRPGs have opted for "range bands" instead of specific measurements, and I'm sure there are 5e variants out there that have experimented with it, but I think the design team producing the game is overwhelmingly based in the English measurement system, so we have what we have.  

 Maybe. I'd assumed that it was due to it being simpler. The two other systems I play uses zones, and it really speeds up combat. Like, an unbelievable amount. It doesn't have to deal with the detail-centric spells that 5e does though. With the detailed spells, you have to work with measurements,  but since they don't have that same baggage so zones can work well, zones are much better than feet and inches. I wouldn't alter them to reintroduce measurements for the sake of it.

You're probably right that it's not a conscious end-run around measurement standards, but "zones" as a concept in its simplification of things, makes things simpler in taking "measurement" out of play as well.  The trade off, I suppose having not played a lot of zone combat games, is the abstraction of combat so that a given zone functioning weapons and combat magics, range isn't really a consideration in prep anymore (though I'd say that a lot of 5e combat magics and missile do have a sort of "zones" homogeneity or at least range categories, not completely homogenous but enough to recognize some design principle).