As for the VTT, I hope it is successful but it doesn't interest me. While it may not be a videogame it is too much like one for me. To me it takes away from the game, the graphics are from someone's imagination that is not actively playing the game with me, and I can see how it could detract from the non-combat aspect of the game.
To me a VTT is a DTT for players that can not sit at the same physical table and play but do not want to have a handful of apps, programs and devices to play online. If the graphics and animations are for you great, but there are quite a few players that will not use it.
Again I hope it succeeds and is profitable, because what is good for Wotc should translate into more content for those that are not interested in a more videogame like experience.
I will say it does look good at least the little bit I have seen.
I have been playing around with the maps tool here and am planning to give it a try in my upcoming campaign. Both the maps and encounter tools still need a fair amount of work as does DDB. Hopefully these layoffs do not let these tools stagnate and add to the backlog of missing/broken features on DDB.
Or realistically the more likely option, both a monthly subscription model alongside MTX out the wazoo. How long do you give it before MTX no longer stop at cosmetics? Or before we start seeing gambling crates?
He makes a good point of comparing Nintendo to Hasbro. The Nintendo CEO chose to take a pay cut (and presumably ordered some other execs to accept a pay cut as well) instead of laying off scores of employees. That speaks to how, in Japan, the patronage system of corporations is to look out for employees like family as opposed to the norm in US business where "family" is more a euphemism from HR. This norm is not without it's detractors, however, as some business analysts claim that this is one of the major reasons for Japan's decades-long recession.
Japanese corporate culture is very far from perfect itself. But I can respect that one aspect of it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re angling to work microtransactions into the VTT, but as long as it has the basic utility of grid paper you can move tokens across and draw on and a way to link a D&DB character sheet to it, then the MTs don’t matter any more than any other system’s premium cosmetic options. Really I see it going one of two ways: either they have a monthly subscription with a fair amount of field design tools and cosmetics baked in, or they have a fairly simple but freely accessible base VTT with a lot of options for purchase. I don’t particularly care which; if I don’t perceive a subscription based model to be worth it to me, I’ll leave it be, and if the basic system is free then it’s just another case of caveat emptor for not purchasing boondoggles you don’t need.
I expect they will have all the assets from Basic loaded in and everything else will be tied to your content library. But Basic is more than enough for players to try it out.
As for the VTT, I hope it is successful but it doesn't interest me. While it may not be a videogame it is too much like one for me. To me it takes away from the game, the graphics are from someone's imagination that is not actively playing the game with me, and I can see how it could detract from the non-combat aspect of the game.
To me a VTT is a DTT for players that can not sit at the same physical table and play but do not want to have a handful of apps, programs and devices to play online. If the graphics and animations are for you great, but there are quite a few players that will not use it.
Again I hope it succeeds and is profitable, because what is good for Wotc should translate into more content for those that are not interested in a more videogame like experience.
I will say it does look good at least the little bit I have seen.
I have been playing around with the maps tool here and am planning to give it a try in my upcoming campaign. Both the maps and encounter tools still need a fair amount of work as does DDB. Hopefully these layoffs do not let these tools stagnate and add to the backlog of missing/broken features on DDB.
I'm in a Maps game currently; I'd say the biggest miss right now is no drawing tool, so we've been having to use tokens and the like to represent the boundaries of an Entangle or Wall of Fire. But loading and sizing map grids is much easier than in Owlbear Rodeo, plus you don't have to worry about maintaining a big library of your own token art because Maps pulls directly from the various monster books; moreover, the fact that your campaign's dice roll log carries over to it seamlessly gives it a substantial edge.
I'm in a Maps game currently; I'd say the biggest miss right now is no drawing tool, so we've been having to use tokens and the like to represent the boundaries of an Entangle or Wall of Fire. But loading and sizing map grids is much easier than in Owlbear Rodeo, plus you don't have to worry about maintaining a big library of your own token art because Maps pulls directly from the various monster books; moreover, the fact that your campaign's dice roll log carries over to it seamlessly gives it a substantial edge.
Drawing would be a big help, so would pre populated monsters and baddies for the published content that is in maps along with a way to see the DM version and the player version without several tabs open. Being web based means I can use my old chromebook to put it on a TV and hand the players a mouse, lots of my players use their phone and don't really like to move their PC's on a screen that small.
Considering it is in Alpa I think it is workable now and has potential to be good, really good if the time and money is spent on it.
Or realistically the more likely option, both a monthly subscription model alongside MTX out the wazoo. How long do you give it before MTX no longer stop at cosmetics? Or before we start seeing gambling crates?
And what else exactly do you think microtransactions will incorporate? They can't sell things that actually affect character performance for a VTT, and there's no realistic way they can work timers into the system. I cannot think of anything they can offer besides cosmetics and design tools, both of which while nice are in no way essential to playing and enjoying a session. And frankly gambling crates are no different from other cosmetic offerings.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re angling to work microtransactions into the VTT, but as long as it has the basic utility of grid paper you can move tokens across and draw on and a way to link a D&DB character sheet to it, then the MTs don’t matter any more than any other system’s premium cosmetic options. Really I see it going one of two ways: either they have a monthly subscription with a fair amount of field design tools and cosmetics baked in, or they have a fairly simple but freely accessible base VTT with a lot of options for purchase. I don’t particularly care which; if I don’t perceive a subscription based model to be worth it to me, I’ll leave it be, and if the basic system is free then it’s just another case of caveat emptor for not purchasing boondoggles you don’t need.
I expect they will have all the assets from Basic loaded in and everything else will be tied to your content library. But Basic is more than enough for players to try it out.
I agree they're hardly going to make content from sourcebooks available without someone in the campaign having purchased the relevant book, I was more talking in terms of character model and map design stuff. Lots of room to sell various props, though I expect at least a modest toybox of options to be accessible for free, since they need to convince players that this is a better offering than all the other VTTs out there.
And what else exactly do you think microtransactions will incorporate? They can't sell things that actually affect character performance for a VTT, and there's no realistic way they can work timers into the system. I cannot think of anything they can offer besides cosmetics and design tools, both of which while nice are in no way essential to playing and enjoying a session.
Who says they can't? What's stopping them exactly from one day deciding to sell one time use extra spell slots for the low low price of just $4.99 as an extreme example? Or whatever else the creative minds at Hasbro's "recurrent spending environment" WotC come up with?
And what else exactly do you think microtransactions will incorporate? They can't sell things that actually affect character performance for a VTT, and there's no realistic way they can work timers into the system. I cannot think of anything they can offer besides cosmetics and design tools, both of which while nice are in no way essential to playing and enjoying a session.
Who says they can't? What's stopping them exactly from one day deciding to sell one time use extra spell slots for the low low price of just $4.99 as an extreme example? Or whatever else the creative minds at Hasbro's "recurrent spending environment" WotC come up with?
The DM, obviously, is what’s stopping them. This isn’t a computer game where some kind of algorithm is running the show and needs to accept whatever inputs it’s given. It’s an aid for tabletop.
The DM, obviously, is what’s stopping them. This isn’t a computer game where some kind of algorithm is running the show and needs to accept whatever inputs it’s given. It’s an aid for tabletop.
The DM, obviously, is what’s stopping them. This isn’t a computer game where some kind of algorithm is running the show and needs to accept whatever inputs it’s given. It’s an aid for tabletop.
What stops the DM?
The fact that the game isn't played that way, and so if they do pursue this model they're no longer offering a VTT, they're offering a gacha game, which the fanbase is highly unlikely to receive positively or invest in enough to make the project profitable.
Asking people to prove a negative is a logical fallacy in any case.
they complain that very little work has been done recently.
Aside from the VTTs you mean? Both of them?
Many will get little to no use from those tools for various reasons, but many would benefit from patches to bug reports as old as the site, regardless of who currenyly owns the site. Who wants to buy in to a system that is more focused on marketing to new customers than providing fixes to complaints that are years old and hundreds of forum pages deep?
In the software business, fixing bugs for existing code is never as sexy as working on the Next Thing. ;)
The DM, obviously, is what’s stopping them. This isn’t a computer game where some kind of algorithm is running the show and needs to accept whatever inputs it’s given. It’s an aid for tabletop.
What stops the DM?
The players, even without a VTT if a DM hand waved an additional spell slot because a player paid them I would leave that game.
D&D isn't a game a player "wins" so pay to win profit models are going to be a tough method of generating revenue.
Skins and cosmetic things sure, but armor and spell slots?
The fact that the game isn't played that way, and so if they do pursue this model they're no longer offering a VTT, they're offering a gacha game, which the fanbase is highly unlikely to receive positively or invest in enough to make the project profitable.
Asking people to prove a negative is a logical fallacy in any case.
Which was my point, if mechanics are monetised and added into the ruleset it would be received negatively by the fanbase. But people have put more money into stupider ideas. If the company is measuring success of the game by short-term profits, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from compromising the long-term integrity of the game in exchange for that.
I've not asked anyone to prove anything? I put forward a hypothetical scenario where the game is ruined. Nothing more, nothing less.
they complain that very little work has been done recently.
Aside from the VTTs you mean? Both of them?
Many will get little to no use from those tools for various reasons, but many would benefit from patches to bug reports as old as the site, regardless of who currenyly owns the site. Who wants to buy in to a system that is more focused on marketing to new customers than providing fixes to complaints that are years old and hundreds of forum pages deep?
In the software business, fixing bugs for existing code is never as sexy as working on the Next Thing. ;)
Yes but getting people to continue to purchase/subscribe without finishing past projects makes it hard to pay for working on the Next Thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
The fact that the game isn't played that way, and so if they do pursue this model they're no longer offering a VTT, they're offering a gacha game, which the fanbase is highly unlikely to receive positively or invest in enough to make the project profitable.
Asking people to prove a negative is a logical fallacy in any case.
Which was my point, if mechanics are monetised and added into the ruleset it would be received negatively by the fanbase. But people have put more money into stupider ideas. If the company is measuring success of the game by short-term profits, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from compromising the long-term integrity of the game in exchange for that.
I've not asked anyone to prove anything? I put forward a hypothetical scenario where the game is ruined. Nothing more, nothing less.
Regardless, "whataboutisms" aren't the best talking point when you're just tossing out hypothetically possible scenarios with no specific evidence to support the idea that they're likely to occur. WotC has been very clear that they're looking to make a VTT, and what you're describing is not a VTT, ergo we can logically infer that it is unlikely to bear much resemblance to the final product based on the available evidence.
Regardless, "whataboutisms" aren't the best talking point when you're just tossing out hypothetically possible scenarios with no specific evidence to support the idea that they're likely to occur. WotC has been very clear that they're looking to make a VTT, and what you're describing is not a VTT, ergo we can logically infer that it is unlikely to bear much resemblance to the final product based on the available evidence.
Hence the "How long before?" question. You know, to infer it wont be immediate.
Beyond20 gives a pretty good integration already, so while having that baked in is nice, it doesn't really make their VTT stand out from the pack.
Beyond20 carries rolls over, but not things like token art for every printed monster or combat logs. So I stand by what I said.
It's not nothing, but considering it's relatively simple to grab a screenshot from D&DB and make it into a token for a Roll20 campaign, I'd say WotC needs something stronger to really give them a strong selling point. They're the latecomers, so they need to convince consumers who either are already using another product or who feel the current product isn't worth spending money on that they want WotC's product.
1st party integration, if it is done well, is unbeatable. If it isn't done well 3rd party will do the best they can until 1st party realizes they left all that money on the table and does it well.
Look at character sheets, and the character creator pretty much everyone I know uses them. Every once in a while I will see something about 3rd party options for them, most often if a reason is given it is they want something that can be used offline in ways that DDB can not.
As for the VTT, I hope it is successful but it doesn't interest me. While it may not be a videogame it is too much like one for me. To me it takes away from the game, the graphics are from someone's imagination that is not actively playing the game with me, and I can see how it could detract from the non-combat aspect of the game.
To me a VTT is a DTT for players that can not sit at the same physical table and play but do not want to have a handful of apps, programs and devices to play online. If the graphics and animations are for you great, but there are quite a few players that will not use it.
Again I hope it succeeds and is profitable, because what is good for Wotc should translate into more content for those that are not interested in a more videogame like experience.
I will say it does look good at least the little bit I have seen.
I have been playing around with the maps tool here and am planning to give it a try in my upcoming campaign. Both the maps and encounter tools still need a fair amount of work as does DDB. Hopefully these layoffs do not let these tools stagnate and add to the backlog of missing/broken features on DDB.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Or realistically the more likely option, both a monthly subscription model alongside MTX out the wazoo. How long do you give it before MTX no longer stop at cosmetics? Or before we start seeing gambling crates?
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].Japanese corporate culture is very far from perfect itself. But I can respect that one aspect of it.
I expect they will have all the assets from Basic loaded in and everything else will be tied to your content library. But Basic is more than enough for players to try it out.
I'm in a Maps game currently; I'd say the biggest miss right now is no drawing tool, so we've been having to use tokens and the like to represent the boundaries of an Entangle or Wall of Fire. But loading and sizing map grids is much easier than in Owlbear Rodeo, plus you don't have to worry about maintaining a big library of your own token art because Maps pulls directly from the various monster books; moreover, the fact that your campaign's dice roll log carries over to it seamlessly gives it a substantial edge.
Drawing would be a big help, so would pre populated monsters and baddies for the published content that is in maps along with a way to see the DM version and the player version without several tabs open. Being web based means I can use my old chromebook to put it on a TV and hand the players a mouse, lots of my players use their phone and don't really like to move their PC's on a screen that small.
Considering it is in Alpa I think it is workable now and has potential to be good, really good if the time and money is spent on it.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
And what else exactly do you think microtransactions will incorporate? They can't sell things that actually affect character performance for a VTT, and there's no realistic way they can work timers into the system. I cannot think of anything they can offer besides cosmetics and design tools, both of which while nice are in no way essential to playing and enjoying a session. And frankly gambling crates are no different from other cosmetic offerings.
I agree they're hardly going to make content from sourcebooks available without someone in the campaign having purchased the relevant book, I was more talking in terms of character model and map design stuff. Lots of room to sell various props, though I expect at least a modest toybox of options to be accessible for free, since they need to convince players that this is a better offering than all the other VTTs out there.
Who says they can't? What's stopping them exactly from one day deciding to sell one time use extra spell slots for the low low price of just $4.99 as an extreme example? Or whatever else the creative minds at Hasbro's "recurrent spending environment" WotC come up with?
In the sense that you do not care for either, or that you think they are morally and ethically the same?
I've had games absolutely ruined in my eyes over this stuff. I hope it doesn't happen here.
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].I'd say the DDB integration already gives them a leg up - but I'm hopeful for a bunch of assets too.
The DM, obviously, is what’s stopping them. This isn’t a computer game where some kind of algorithm is running the show and needs to accept whatever inputs it’s given. It’s an aid for tabletop.
What stops the DM?
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].Beyond20 gives a pretty good integration already, so while having that baked in is nice, it doesn't really make their VTT stand out from the pack.
The fact that the game isn't played that way, and so if they do pursue this model they're no longer offering a VTT, they're offering a gacha game, which the fanbase is highly unlikely to receive positively or invest in enough to make the project profitable.
Asking people to prove a negative is a logical fallacy in any case.
In the software business, fixing bugs for existing code is never as sexy as working on the Next Thing. ;)
The players, even without a VTT if a DM hand waved an additional spell slot because a player paid them I would leave that game.
D&D isn't a game a player "wins" so pay to win profit models are going to be a tough method of generating revenue.
Skins and cosmetic things sure, but armor and spell slots?
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Which was my point, if mechanics are monetised and added into the ruleset it would be received negatively by the fanbase. But people have put more money into stupider ideas. If the company is measuring success of the game by short-term profits, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from compromising the long-term integrity of the game in exchange for that.
I've not asked anyone to prove anything? I put forward a hypothetical scenario where the game is ruined. Nothing more, nothing less.
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].Yes but getting people to continue to purchase/subscribe without finishing past projects makes it hard to pay for working on the Next Thing.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Regardless, "whataboutisms" aren't the best talking point when you're just tossing out hypothetically possible scenarios with no specific evidence to support the idea that they're likely to occur. WotC has been very clear that they're looking to make a VTT, and what you're describing is not a VTT, ergo we can logically infer that it is unlikely to bear much resemblance to the final product based on the available evidence.
Hence the "How long before?" question. You know, to infer it wont be immediate.
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].It's not nothing, but considering it's relatively simple to grab a screenshot from D&DB and make it into a token for a Roll20 campaign, I'd say WotC needs something stronger to really give them a strong selling point. They're the latecomers, so they need to convince consumers who either are already using another product or who feel the current product isn't worth spending money on that they want WotC's product.
1st party integration, if it is done well, is unbeatable. If it isn't done well 3rd party will do the best they can until 1st party realizes they left all that money on the table and does it well.
Look at character sheets, and the character creator pretty much everyone I know uses them. Every once in a while I will see something about 3rd party options for them, most often if a reason is given it is they want something that can be used offline in ways that DDB can not.
If they get the VTT right it will be big.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.