I am all for being faithful to JRRT's works in the argument, but the definitions of how to game D&D are informed by the work, not defined by them. We assume if we used these characters in D&D - NPC or not - they'd be playable.
These are assumptions that you're making for the sake of discussion. They're valid, but they are not universal.
Actually, that assumption's built right into the fact that hobbit halfling is a playable PC option, and has been since the early days. Heck, if this were a BECMI discussion and not 5e, halfling would be their class
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I just don't see the discussion being productive if the premise of one or more of the participants is why we can't use D&D5E to rep the work, when it can clearly be done. I'm good with disagreement on what the solutions are, but I'm up for discussing how to master the introduction of the content.
Just like Indiana jones was not needed for his story.or adventure.
The whole LOTR series could have been done by sacrificing one hobbit and using one giant eagle to drop him in the volcano while he held the ring.
Without heroic characters doing extraordinary things in the face of danger and overwhelming odds, stories would never be written. The whole story of Odysseus is just the story of a very unlucky and foolish sailor who takes 10 years to sail less than a three thousand miles. He could have walked home faster, about a mile a day. Is that a hero or an idiot?
Look, Gnomarchy. I appreciate your commitment, your philosophy, and your appreciation of the series. I’m also not going to say you are wrong, or right, and that goes for everyone in here. However, when I created the forum, I did do so with the intention of making CHARACTER builds for the fellowship, not a direct translation from LOTR to DND. This is a really interesting debate, and I’ve enjoyed reading it, because both of you guys are making excellent points, and it shows how much joy you take in the books that you wrote three flipping pages worth of replies. Could you possibly start another forum? I’d honestly love to join in.
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“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
Could you possibly start another forum? I’d honestly love to join in.
Eh, no. If we can't keep things civil after a whopping two pages, I really don't have any interest in continuing. And like I said, I don't really take this very seriously.
I'll leave with one comment: there is a missing class in 5e, which is a nonmagical support class. In the old Star Wars rpgs, this class was the noble. If you wanted to build Frodo as a PC, that's what I would have done.
Just like Indiana jones was not needed for his story.or adventure.
The whole LOTR series could have been done by sacrificing one hobbit and using one giant eagle to drop him in the volcano while he held the ring.
Without heroic characters doing extraordinary things in the face of danger and overwhelming odds, stories would never be written. The whole story of Odysseus is just the story of a very unlucky and foolish sailor who takes 10 years to sail less than a three thousand miles. He could have walked home faster, about a mile a day. Is that a hero or an idiot?
Sauron did have anti-air capacity and his own airforce, you know that right? The Nazgul leader's upgraded mount, minimum. In the air, completely in the open like that and you figure they would not be spotted and grounded?
And what happens if that one hobbit gives in to the ring? Or if the Eagle does? In the end, it was Gollum who 'had one last role to play,' but he would not be on the eagle.
(And this goes for Odysseus, too. You seem to ignore the perils on land)
People have a weird tendency to ignore the fact that Frodo did end up giving in to the Ring in the end.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
However, when I created the forum, I did do so with the intention of making CHARACTER builds for the fellowship, not a direct translation from LOTR to DND.
I assume you meant "created the thread" (i.e. topic) rather than the forum (i.e. all the topics) 🙂
But yes, I see this as a more productive avenue for discussion. Assuming the goal was to create a balanced and interesting D&D party rather than translate the Fellowship directly, what builds would we give each of the members?
The hobbits I would probably relegate to Sidekicks (probably all Experts, or maybe 2 Experts and 2 Warriors) because I'm lazy. That would allow them to level up and contribute but still represent their thematic status as "common folk." That leaves the others:
1) Legolas: I would probably represent him either with an Arcane Archer or a Kensei, something that represents his trick shots and extreme mobility.
2) Aragorn: I know he's probably the most iconic Ranger in D&D (Hunter or Fey Wanderer both work here), but I could actually see him working as an Ancients Paladin too.
3) Gimli: I'm leaning towards Barbarian here, Zealot or Berserker - but actually if LotR had such things, I could easily see him as a War Cleric too due to his devotion to his people and their culture combined with his martial prowess.
4) Boromir: Battlemaster, Champion, or Samurai Fighter.
5) Gandalf: Trickier than he seems because he bears so little resemblance to a D&D wizard. Still, an Abjurer with more subtle spell selection and the occasional blast could work.
Gandalf is your classic NPC who dips in and out of the adventure as needed, and with a monster stat block he doesn't need to fit into any of the square pegs of a PC class
Sam - if we're having fun with this, make the gardener a druid. Circle of Dreams is probably the best fit, although some homebrew subclass that gives him something to do with his wild shapes other than wild shape (a la Stars) would make sense. If you want to stick a smidge closer to the books, Oath of Devotion paladin
Merry - Inquisitive rogue. After all, he's the one who figured out what was going on before Frodo even told them
Pippin - the toughest fit, but given where he ends up, a multiclass fighter/Oath of the Crown paladin might work
Big Folk
Aragorn -- Monster Slayer ranger, perhaps with some paladin levels in there too
Boromir - I actually see him as a barbarian rather than a fighter, likely Ancestral Guardian, given the emotional control issues and the fact that he just would not go down when defending Merry and Pippin at the end. At the very least a fighter/barb multiclass
Gimli - fighter, either Champion for the crits or classic Battle Master
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wouldn’t Gandalf be a sorcerer, as he draws his magic from his species (ie bloodline)? That could be a modded draconic bloodline. Or, as he was sent to the west with the other Istari, by Auwe, making him a divine soul.
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“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
Gandalf is not a wizard. What spells does he cast? Speak with butterflies and light? Pyrotechnics at the party?
He fires a lightning bolt in The Hobbit, and dispels an enchantment on Theoden. The movies add even more overt stuff like Telekinesis, Sunburst, Control Weather etc.
But I shouldn't need to bring those examples up anyway because, again, we're not trying to translate them literally. He's the party wizard thematically so in D&D that's what he'd be, even if Middle-Earth is a lot more low magic and a true translation of him would be some kind of angel without a PC class at all.
So how do you explain how good he is with Glamdring? In the books, he only used fire, which is arguably attributable to Narya, the Ring of Fire, which he bore.
How do I explain how he was able to use a longsword? Gee, I dunno, a feat? Maybe he was higher than level 4?
And The Hobbit is a book too, at least last time I checked...
So how do you explain how good he is with Glamdring? In the books, he only used fire, which is arguably attributable to Narya, the Ring of Fire, which he bore.
How do I explain how he was able to use a longsword? Gee, I dunno, a feat? Maybe he was higher than level 4?
Wizard 17 + three-level dip in Watchers paladin for smites and Dueling fighting style oughta do it, if you really want him to be a PC. Or 18/2 and skip the Oath in exchange for Spell Mastery
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So how do you explain how good he is with Glamdring? In the books, he only used fire, which is arguably attributable to Narya, the Ring of Fire, which he bore.
How do I explain how he was able to use a longsword? Gee, I dunno, a feat? Maybe he was higher than level 4?
Wizard 17 + three-level dip in Watchers paladin for smites and Dueling fighting style oughta do it, if you really want him to be a PC. Or 18/2 and skip the Oath in exchange for Spell Mastery
Or 18 levels wizard for spell mastery, plus 2 levels fighter with great weapon as your fighting style, so he can have a higher chance of crits.
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“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
The Hobbit is a book. Please cite where he used lightning in the book.
"But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."
And Gandalf did not merely 'use' a longsword. He was clearly an expert in its use, it being his preferred weapon in battle, rather than merely some backup weapon for when spells fail. As a "wizard" he was Istari, a celestial being sent by the gods to advise, with orders to avoid using his full power. He engaged the Balrog in melee and in battle against Sauron's forces directly in the final battle, was wading directly into combat.
So multiclass him then. I promise you, I truly could not care less about attempting to translate him as literally as possible, and said as much in my first post. There are hundreds of Tolkien or TTRPG forums you can have this tedious debate on, it's come up in literally every D&D edition and will likely do so until the heat death of the universe.
Personally I'm in the "leave Gandalf out of the PC classing" camp. He shows up to set the plot in motion and deliver exposition and from then on fades in and out of the narrative depending on the needs of the current situation, and ultimately only plays a hand in resolving a couple of encounters. He's a textbook NPC/DMPC, not a full party member.
Personally I'm in the "leave Gandalf out of the PC classing" camp. He shows up to set the plot in motion and deliver exposition and from then on fades in and out of the narrative depending on the needs of the current situation, and ultimately only plays a hand in resolving a couple of encounters. He's a textbook NPC/DMPC, not a full party member.
The DM even writes him out in a big showy set piece.
A terrific flash like lightning (why not of lightning, if it was lightning, or even electricity?)
Because it was in a cave and not in the sky
Tolkien wasn't running a D&D session, he was writing a book in the 1930s
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Third idea: he is comparing the magnitude of light from the spells casting to that of lightning, and not actually saying the spell is lightning, or lightning adjacent. This would make it a thematic thing by the dm, and would mean the spell could be a ton of different things! Since it doesn’t mention any burns or major mutilations of the goblins, I think it’s likely a higher level casting of thunderwave.
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“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
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Actually, that assumption's built right into the fact that
hobbithalfling is a playable PC option, and has been since the early days. Heck, if this were a BECMI discussion and not 5e, halfling would be their classActive characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm not trying to own anyone here.
I just don't see the discussion being productive if the premise of one or more of the participants is why we can't use D&D5E to rep the work, when it can clearly be done.
I'm good with disagreement on what the solutions are, but I'm up for discussing how to master the introduction of the content.
Just like Indiana jones was not needed for his story.or adventure.
The whole LOTR series could have been done by sacrificing one hobbit and using one giant eagle to drop him in the volcano while he held the ring.
Without heroic characters doing extraordinary things in the face of danger and overwhelming odds, stories would never be written.
The whole story of Odysseus is just the story of a very unlucky and foolish sailor who takes 10 years to sail less than a three thousand miles. He could have walked home faster, about a mile a day. Is that a hero or an idiot?
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].Look, Gnomarchy. I appreciate your commitment, your philosophy, and your appreciation of the series. I’m also not going to say you are wrong, or right, and that goes for everyone in here. However, when I created the forum, I did do so with the intention of making CHARACTER builds for the fellowship, not a direct translation from LOTR to DND. This is a really interesting debate, and I’ve enjoyed reading it, because both of you guys are making excellent points, and it shows how much joy you take in the books that you wrote three flipping pages worth of replies. Could you possibly start another forum? I’d honestly love to join in.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
Eh, no. If we can't keep things civil after a whopping two pages, I really don't have any interest in continuing. And like I said, I don't really take this very seriously.
I'll leave with one comment: there is a missing class in 5e, which is a nonmagical support class. In the old Star Wars rpgs, this class was the noble. If you wanted to build Frodo as a PC, that's what I would have done.
People have a weird tendency to ignore the fact that Frodo did end up giving in to the Ring in the end.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I assume you meant "created the thread" (i.e. topic) rather than the forum (i.e. all the topics) 🙂
But yes, I see this as a more productive avenue for discussion. Assuming the goal was to create a balanced and interesting D&D party rather than translate the Fellowship directly, what builds would we give each of the members?
The hobbits I would probably relegate to Sidekicks (probably all Experts, or maybe 2 Experts and 2 Warriors) because I'm lazy. That would allow them to level up and contribute but still represent their thematic status as "common folk." That leaves the others:
1) Legolas: I would probably represent him either with an Arcane Archer or a Kensei, something that represents his trick shots and extreme mobility.
2) Aragorn: I know he's probably the most iconic Ranger in D&D (Hunter or Fey Wanderer both work here), but I could actually see him working as an Ancients Paladin too.
3) Gimli: I'm leaning towards Barbarian here, Zealot or Berserker - but actually if LotR had such things, I could easily see him as a War Cleric too due to his devotion to his people and their culture combined with his martial prowess.
4) Boromir: Battlemaster, Champion, or Samurai Fighter.
5) Gandalf: Trickier than he seems because he bears so little resemblance to a D&D wizard. Still, an Abjurer with more subtle spell selection and the occasional blast could work.
Gandalf is not a wizard. What spells does he cast? Speak with butterflies and light? Pyrotechnics at the party?
INMHO, he is a Paladin, Oath of the Ancients with some feat that gives him the LIght Cantrip. Dual wielding a staff and longsword.
Gandalf is your classic NPC who dips in and out of the adventure as needed, and with a monster stat block he doesn't need to fit into any of the square pegs of a PC class
Hobbitses
Frodo - per above, Knowledge Domain cleric
Sam - if we're having fun with this, make the gardener a druid. Circle of Dreams is probably the best fit, although some homebrew subclass that gives him something to do with his wild shapes other than wild shape (a la Stars) would make sense. If you want to stick a smidge closer to the books, Oath of Devotion paladin
Merry - Inquisitive rogue. After all, he's the one who figured out what was going on before Frodo even told them
Pippin - the toughest fit, but given where he ends up, a multiclass fighter/Oath of the Crown paladin might work
Big Folk
Aragorn -- Monster Slayer ranger, perhaps with some paladin levels in there too
Boromir - I actually see him as a barbarian rather than a fighter, likely Ancestral Guardian, given the emotional control issues and the fact that he just would not go down when defending Merry and Pippin at the end. At the very least a fighter/barb multiclass
Gimli - fighter, either Champion for the crits or classic Battle Master
Legolas - Battle Master fighter/Hunter ranger multiclass
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wouldn’t Gandalf be a sorcerer, as he draws his magic from his species (ie bloodline)? That could be a modded draconic bloodline. Or, as he was sent to the west with the other Istari, by Auwe, making him a divine soul.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
He fires a lightning bolt in The Hobbit, and dispels an enchantment on Theoden. The movies add even more overt stuff like Telekinesis, Sunburst, Control Weather etc.
But I shouldn't need to bring those examples up anyway because, again, we're not trying to translate them literally. He's the party wizard thematically so in D&D that's what he'd be, even if Middle-Earth is a lot more low magic and a true translation of him would be some kind of angel without a PC class at all.
How do I explain how he was able to use a longsword? Gee, I dunno, a feat? Maybe he was higher than level 4?
And The Hobbit is a book too, at least last time I checked...
Wizard 17 + three-level dip in Watchers paladin for smites and Dueling fighting style oughta do it, if you really want him to be a PC. Or 18/2 and skip the Oath in exchange for Spell Mastery
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Or 18 levels wizard for spell mastery, plus 2 levels fighter with great weapon as your fighting style, so he can have a higher chance of crits.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”
"But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."
-The Hobbit Chapter 4, by J.R.R Tolkien
So multiclass him then. I promise you, I truly could not care less about attempting to translate him as literally as possible, and said as much in my first post. There are hundreds of Tolkien or TTRPG forums you can have this tedious debate on, it's come up in literally every D&D edition and will likely do so until the heat death of the universe.
Personally I'm in the "leave Gandalf out of the PC classing" camp. He shows up to set the plot in motion and deliver exposition and from then on fades in and out of the narrative depending on the needs of the current situation, and ultimately only plays a hand in resolving a couple of encounters. He's a textbook NPC/DMPC, not a full party member.
The DM even writes him out in a big showy set piece.
Because it was in a cave and not in the sky
Tolkien wasn't running a D&D session, he was writing a book in the 1930s
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Third idea: he is comparing the magnitude of light from the spells casting to that of lightning, and not actually saying the spell is lightning, or lightning adjacent. This would make it a thematic thing by the dm, and would mean the spell could be a ton of different things! Since it doesn’t mention any burns or major mutilations of the goblins, I think it’s likely a higher level casting of thunderwave.
“In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbithole, and that means comfort.”