I actually think the variant human is pretty trash. It's awful for the simple reason of being so obviously the better choice for most builds (or ... a lot of builds?!). I like human-human. But when it comes down to it, I'm not stupid - I primarily play variant humans.
I do appreciate the "it's bad because it is so good that it is the only real choice" argument, but I've never found the Vuman to be so powerful that I felt I had to choose it, except over standard human. Maybe it's just me and it's because I don't feel the need to go for the absolute best every time, but Ive never felt that I couldn't be a Dwarf or an Elf or a Genasi because of the existence of Vuman. It just wrecks standard humans...but they get wrecked by pretty much everyone anyway.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I do appreciate the "it's bad because it is so good that it is the only real choice" argument, but I've never found the Vuman to be so powerful that I felt I had to choose it, except over standard human. Maybe it's just me and it's because I don't feel the need to go for the absolute best every time, but Ive never felt that I couldn't be a Dwarf or an Elf or a Genasi because of the existence of Vuman. It just wrecks standard humans...but they get wrecked by pretty much everyone anyway.
I have a far more limited selection of races than most. Yet still, it seems to me: Other than dark vision, v human basically wrecks or matches all other races, then get's a feat on top.
That's not technically true, but still. You can aim for specific things you want, like Halfling Luck or whatever - but other than that, pound by pound, v humans wreck everything.
To my thinking, anyways =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Standard human doesn’t work well if you’re using the standard array for ability scores: only two of those are odd numbers, so the +1 on the other results will rarely be useful. Your stats will become 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9. Only the 16 and 14 will have a better ability modifier than the baseline values. You could use a half-feat to boost the 15, but you’ll otherwise be mostly wanting to put +2 ASIs on your best stat and might never boost the three lowest (so, essentially, three of the Human’s +1s might never benefit you).
I do appreciate the "it's bad because it is so good that it is the only real choice" argument, but I've never found the Vuman to be so powerful that I felt I had to choose it, except over standard human. Maybe it's just me and it's because I don't feel the need to go for the absolute best every time, but Ive never felt that I couldn't be a Dwarf or an Elf or a Genasi because of the existence of Vuman. It just wrecks standard humans...but they get wrecked by pretty much everyone anyway.
I have a far more limited selection of races than most. Yet still, it seems to me: Other than dark vision, v human basically wrecks or matches all other races, then get's a feat on top.
That's not technically true, but still. You can aim for specific things you want, like Halfling Luck or whatever - but other than that, pound by pound, v humans wreck everything.
To my thinking, anyways =)
What feat gives all the benefits of being a half-elf?
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I prefer Human Variant for it's ability to start with a feat, especially in campaign where DMs don't grant a free feat at 1st level or allow Custom Lineage. Trading ASI to tertiary, quaternary, quinary and senary ability scores in exchange for an extra skill proficiency and a feat is just too good to pass, which can be noticed in how the Human race in most Class Handbooks rating goes from average to among the best with this variant option.
What feat gives all the benefits of being a half-elf?
None, obviously, and that's not my point. I don't think there's any half-elf thing I'd pick over a feat - I think I'd possibly throw them all away in exchange for a feat. What I'm saying is, starting with a feat is good, and quite possibly the single best 'racial ability' in the game. Although Darkvision is also good.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
What feat gives all the benefits of being a half-elf?
None, obviously, and that's not my point. I don't think there's any half-elf thing I'd pick over a feat - I think I'd possibly throw them all away in exchange for a feat. What I'm saying is, starting with a feat is good, and quite possibly the single best 'racial ability' in the game. Although Darkvision is also good.
And my point is that there is no feat in the game that comes close to providing the benefits of most of the non human PC races starting abilities. A feat at first level is useful for character optimization, but it does not actually make you more powerful over the other options.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Mark of Storm or Mark of Detection Half Elf, if your DM allows it?
That sounds like it's from sources I don't use. Eberron? I'm not saying there's a feat that's better than everything in D&D-dom, because of lot of official stuff is pretty unfiltered. But ... for me? I have only the PHB and the DMG. The races I can play are human, dwarf, halfling, gnome, elf, half-elf and half-orc. And maybe goblin.
What I'm saying is that quite a lot of feats are really, really good. And for the races I ever look at, nothing stands out as being like, hugely useful. Except Darkvision.
And my point is that there is no feat in the game that comes close to providing the benefits of most of the non human PC races starting abilities. A feat at first level is useful for character optimization, but it does not actually make you more powerful over the other options.
And ... I say it does. Basically, I see it like this: Having a feat at level 1 accelerates you to a power level you could otherwise only attain at level 4. That is enormous. It is staggeringly huge. Mountainous. At level 20, no one cares if you had a feat at level 1. But at level 3, you're head and shoulders above some guy who happens to have ... like, Savage Attacks.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Mark of Storm or Mark of Detection Half Elf, if your DM allows it?
That sounds like it's from sources I don't use. Eberron? I'm not saying there's a feat that's better than everything in D&D-dom, because of lot of official stuff is pretty unfiltered. But ... for me? I have only the PHB and the DMG. The races I can play are human, dwarf, halfling, gnome, elf, half-elf and half-orc. And maybe goblin.
What I'm saying is that quite a lot of feats are really, really good. And for the races I ever look at, nothing stands out as being like, hugely useful. Except Darkvision.
And my point is that there is no feat in the game that comes close to providing the benefits of most of the non human PC races starting abilities. A feat at first level is useful for character optimization, but it does not actually make you more powerful over the other options.
And ... I say it does. Basically, I see it like this: Having a feat at level 1 accelerates you to a power level you could otherwise only attain at level 4. That is enormous. It is staggeringly huge. Mountainous. At level 20, no one cares if you had a feat at level 1. But at level 3, you're head and shoulders above some guy who happens to have ... like, Savage Attacks.
As someone who's been running a half-orc barbarian from 1st level up to 7th level (now) and is also in a campaign with someone running a v human barbarian who's now 3rd level, no. Having a feat at 1st level is good, but there's nothing that lets you pull significantly ahead of Savage Attacks AND Relentless Endurance AND darkvision.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
As someone who's been running a half-orc barbarian from 1st level up to 7th level (now) and is also in a campaign with someone running a v human barbarian who's now 3rd level, no. Having a feat at 1st level is good, but there's nothing that lets you pull significantly ahead of Savage Attacks AND Relentless Endurance AND darkvision.
But we're not counting Darkvision. Cause you'll notice I said that from the start: Darkvision might be worth it.
So, at level 1, you have Savage Attacks and Relentless Endurance. I have ... whatever you feel is powerful, Great Weapon Master, or Pole Arm Master, or one of those that give you spells, like Fey Touched or whatever.
I just have to say - I'm sorry, but that does not work out in your favor. And when your half-orc get's a feat at level 4, I get another to combo with my level 1 feat. I'm going to remain totally ironclad here: Until higher levels, having a feat at level 1 is unimaginably huge.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I like Variant Humans because of their flexibility as a race, and if your DM uses racial feats, they start the game with TWO feats, which is straight insane. Humans are boring to me, although I have no disrespect for them.
As someone who's been running a half-orc barbarian from 1st level up to 7th level (now) and is also in a campaign with someone running a v human barbarian who's now 3rd level, no. Having a feat at 1st level is good, but there's nothing that lets you pull significantly ahead of Savage Attacks AND Relentless Endurance AND darkvision.
But we're not counting Darkvision. Cause you'll notice I said that from the start: Darkvision might be worth it.
So in other words, a bonus feat is more powerful as long as you only compare it to one ability that a non-human PC gets instead of everything that a non-human PC gets. If you've got to weigh the scales like that, you're admitting that it isn't actually more powerful.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I will say that Human and Variant Human are usually worse than other races. But variant Human can be useful if you need a powerful feat at level 1 to complete your build. But at higher levels, its not worth it. At least that's what I think. I usually avoid humans.
So in other words, a bonus feat is more powerful as long as you only compare it to one ability that a non-human PC gets instead of everything that a non-human PC gets. If you've got to weigh the scales like that, you're admitting that it isn't actually more powerful.
Uh, no? No. I think I gave you a pretty good example of what I mean. Respond to that, instead of ... this strawman.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So in other words, a bonus feat is more powerful as long as you only compare it to one ability that a non-human PC gets instead of everything that a non-human PC gets. If you've got to weigh the scales like that, you're admitting that it isn't actually more powerful.
Uh, no? No. I think I gave you a pretty good example of what I mean. Respond to that, instead of ... this strawman.
I think the better counter would be that, even if it is a very powerful feat, it is just early. So, at 4th, you are comparing with the second most powerful feat chosen. At 8th, with the 3rd, etc.
Comparing power with the first feat chosen is shortsighted
What he seemed to be saying, though, is that if Darkvision, alone, is potentially worth not being human, then wouldn't darkvision plus everything else that race provides tip the scales more obviously?
Dark Vision is ... a fringe case. It's tremendously useful - in the dark. And otherwise totally irrelevant. And it can be produced in a variety of ways, spells, magic items, whatever. Most racial abilities can not be duplicated by 2nd level magic.
So .. yes, Dark Vision is a huge deal. But then, it's often simply ignored, and even if it isn't - there are torches, spells and magic items go get around it.
Also, feats combo. In regards to the part of your post that wasn't about Dark Vision. So, PWM plus Sentinel, for example, is still more powerful than just PWF, at level 4. I'd argue it's a step up, in power difference. Regardless, my point stands: I honestly feel that having the option to pick a feat at level one trumps most if not all racial options. And I'm only saying 'most if not all' because there are so many races I don't have access to and don't care about.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I don't think many people are debating that Humans are better than Variant Humans. Humans are definitely better at ability scores, but a feat hopelessly outclasses it, and you get two feats if a DM uses racial feats. Variant Humans are not only more powerful, but way more fun. Humans are probably the most boring race in the game, whereas at least Variants have a little something. If you're a Variant, you can make an interesting backstory to correspond to the feat, which you just can't do with normal humans.
I don't think many people are debating that Humans are better than Variant Humans. Humans are definitely better at ability scores, but a feat hopelessly outclasses it, and you get two feats if a DM uses racial feats. Variant Humans are not only more powerful, but way more fun. Humans are probably the most boring race in the game, whereas at least Variants have a little something. If you're a Variant, you can make an interesting backstory to correspond to the feat, which you just can't do with normal humans.
If by "fun" you mean capable of unbalancing a game, yes, you are correct. I do not find it "fun" to have a powerful char that steamrolls encounters. I have nerfed my chars in the past (bye bye Arcane Recovery and auto-learning 2 spells when my Wizard levels up) because I find a challenge far more fun that easy mode.
Sorry, I do see what you mean. I don't mean that I want to make the most busted character, it's just that I prefer to gain something from the race that I can use, like a feat.
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I do appreciate the "it's bad because it is so good that it is the only real choice" argument, but I've never found the Vuman to be so powerful that I felt I had to choose it, except over standard human. Maybe it's just me and it's because I don't feel the need to go for the absolute best every time, but Ive never felt that I couldn't be a Dwarf or an Elf or a Genasi because of the existence of Vuman. It just wrecks standard humans...but they get wrecked by pretty much everyone anyway.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have a far more limited selection of races than most. Yet still, it seems to me: Other than dark vision, v human basically wrecks or matches all other races, then get's a feat on top.
That's not technically true, but still. You can aim for specific things you want, like Halfling Luck or whatever - but other than that, pound by pound, v humans wreck everything.
To my thinking, anyways =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Standard human doesn’t work well if you’re using the standard array for ability scores: only two of those are odd numbers, so the +1 on the other results will rarely be useful. Your stats will become 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9. Only the 16 and 14 will have a better ability modifier than the baseline values. You could use a half-feat to boost the 15, but you’ll otherwise be mostly wanting to put +2 ASIs on your best stat and might never boost the three lowest (so, essentially, three of the Human’s +1s might never benefit you).
What feat gives all the benefits of being a half-elf?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I prefer Human Variant for it's ability to start with a feat, especially in campaign where DMs don't grant a free feat at 1st level or allow Custom Lineage. Trading ASI to tertiary, quaternary, quinary and senary ability scores in exchange for an extra skill proficiency and a feat is just too good to pass, which can be noticed in how the Human race in most Class Handbooks rating goes from average to among the best with this variant option.
None, obviously, and that's not my point. I don't think there's any half-elf thing I'd pick over a feat - I think I'd possibly throw them all away in exchange for a feat. What I'm saying is, starting with a feat is good, and quite possibly the single best 'racial ability' in the game. Although Darkvision is also good.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
And my point is that there is no feat in the game that comes close to providing the benefits of most of the non human PC races starting abilities. A feat at first level is useful for character optimization, but it does not actually make you more powerful over the other options.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That sounds like it's from sources I don't use. Eberron? I'm not saying there's a feat that's better than everything in D&D-dom, because of lot of official stuff is pretty unfiltered. But ... for me? I have only the PHB and the DMG. The races I can play are human, dwarf, halfling, gnome, elf, half-elf and half-orc. And maybe goblin.
What I'm saying is that quite a lot of feats are really, really good. And for the races I ever look at, nothing stands out as being like, hugely useful. Except Darkvision.
And ... I say it does. Basically, I see it like this: Having a feat at level 1 accelerates you to a power level you could otherwise only attain at level 4. That is enormous. It is staggeringly huge. Mountainous. At level 20, no one cares if you had a feat at level 1. But at level 3, you're head and shoulders above some guy who happens to have ... like, Savage Attacks.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As someone who's been running a half-orc barbarian from 1st level up to 7th level (now) and is also in a campaign with someone running a v human barbarian who's now 3rd level, no. Having a feat at 1st level is good, but there's nothing that lets you pull significantly ahead of Savage Attacks AND Relentless Endurance AND darkvision.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
But we're not counting Darkvision. Cause you'll notice I said that from the start: Darkvision might be worth it.
So, at level 1, you have Savage Attacks and Relentless Endurance. I have ... whatever you feel is powerful, Great Weapon Master, or Pole Arm Master, or one of those that give you spells, like Fey Touched or whatever.
I just have to say - I'm sorry, but that does not work out in your favor. And when your half-orc get's a feat at level 4, I get another to combo with my level 1 feat. I'm going to remain totally ironclad here: Until higher levels, having a feat at level 1 is unimaginably huge.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I like Variant Humans because of their flexibility as a race, and if your DM uses racial feats, they start the game with TWO feats, which is straight insane. Humans are boring to me, although I have no disrespect for them.
So in other words, a bonus feat is more powerful as long as you only compare it to one ability that a non-human PC gets instead of everything that a non-human PC gets. If you've got to weigh the scales like that, you're admitting that it isn't actually more powerful.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm loving this debate.
I will say that Human and Variant Human are usually worse than other races. But variant Human can be useful if you need a powerful feat at level 1 to complete your build. But at higher levels, its not worth it. At least that's what I think. I usually avoid humans.
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Uh, no? No. I think I gave you a pretty good example of what I mean. Respond to that, instead of ... this strawman.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Dark Vision is ... a fringe case. It's tremendously useful - in the dark. And otherwise totally irrelevant. And it can be produced in a variety of ways, spells, magic items, whatever. Most racial abilities can not be duplicated by 2nd level magic.
So .. yes, Dark Vision is a huge deal. But then, it's often simply ignored, and even if it isn't - there are torches, spells and magic items go get around it.
Also, feats combo. In regards to the part of your post that wasn't about Dark Vision. So, PWM plus Sentinel, for example, is still more powerful than just PWF, at level 4. I'd argue it's a step up, in power difference. Regardless, my point stands: I honestly feel that having the option to pick a feat at level one trumps most if not all racial options. And I'm only saying 'most if not all' because there are so many races I don't have access to and don't care about.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I don't think many people are debating that Humans are better than Variant Humans. Humans are definitely better at ability scores, but a feat hopelessly outclasses it, and you get two feats if a DM uses racial feats. Variant Humans are not only more powerful, but way more fun. Humans are probably the most boring race in the game, whereas at least Variants have a little something. If you're a Variant, you can make an interesting backstory to correspond to the feat, which you just can't do with normal humans.
Sorry, I do see what you mean. I don't mean that I want to make the most busted character, it's just that I prefer to gain something from the race that I can use, like a feat.