I’d also point out that purely on the basis of a character wanting to be half-dwarf in this setting, there’s no reason they would have to be a Mul; presumably dwarves and various other races exist in the setting, and given that the setting clearly allows for relationships between the two to result in offspring there’s no reason you couldn’t be a typical half dwarf. The prominent existence of one particular demographic of half dwarf in the narrative doesn’t intrinsically preclude any other origin as a possibility. Depending on the details of the setting and the DM there might be some social consequences as a result of playing such a character, but that’s often part of the point when a player is designing such a character, and at the IRL level the table itself should moderate that based on everyone’s comfort level with such content, as per usual for roleplay.
The idea is that the sorcerer kings wanted the best traits in their slaves possible, so they forcibly bred the enslaved populations. Additionally, every major city is described to have had an enslaved population, with the muls being the default “slave race,” which is hugely offensive and altogether makes it much worse than some other forms of slavery in fiction.
Slavery is a historical fact. Obviously it's one of the worst things humans in the real world did to other humans in the real world - but this isn't about that. This is about imaginary evil sorcerer-kings doing imaginary bad things to create an imaginary race of super-slaves.
And, please: Mind flayers do exactly the same. Except they also eat their brains.
I .. just honestly have to admit: I don't get it.
Yes, it's horrendously evil. But I just cannot for the life of me see who the offended party is here. If this was a crime - who's the victim?
People that see the “forced breeding” and “slave race” bit and get triggered or at least severely uncomfortable. Kinda ruins the fun for them.
70s Dark Sun is doable in many campaigns, but it’d never survive as something “mainstream,” especially since Wizards has been marketing more and more to younger folks recently. That’s where the money is. Imagine a kid asking their parents for a Dark Sun book, the parents ask what it’s about, and the poor kid is forced to explain how he wants to play as a slave in a dystopian desert.
Granted, that’s an extreme example, but it’s not gonna fly these days. Dark Sun has too many mature themes. It’s just not where the audience is.
I agree with Nothic 100%.
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I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
I've had half-dwarfs and half-elf/dwarfs since the early 90's.
I will have them regardless of D&D adding them in.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The idea is that the sorcerer kings wanted the best traits in their slaves possible, so they forcibly bred the enslaved populations. Additionally, every major city is described to have had an enslaved population, with the muls being the default “slave race,” which is hugely offensive and altogether makes it much worse than some other forms of slavery in fiction.
Slavery is a historical fact. Obviously it's one of the worst things humans in the real world did to other humans in the real world - but this isn't about that. This is about imaginary evil sorcerer-kings doing imaginary bad things to create an imaginary race of super-slaves.
And, please: Mind flayers do exactly the same. Except they also eat their brains.
I .. just honestly have to admit: I don't get it.
Yes, it's horrendously evil. But I just cannot for the life of me see who the offended party is here. If this was a crime - who's the victim?
People that see the “forced breeding” and “slave race” bit and get triggered or at least severely uncomfortable. Kinda ruins the fun for them.
70s Dark Sun is doable in many campaigns, but it’d never survive as something “mainstream,” especially since Wizards has been marketing more and more to younger folks recently. That’s where the money is. Imagine a kid asking their parents for a Dark Sun book, the parents ask what it’s about, and the poor kid is forced to explain how he wants to play as a slave in a dystopian desert.
Granted, that’s an extreme example, but it’s not gonna fly these days. Dark Sun has too many mature themes. It’s just not where the audience is.
Yeah, as I’ve said, for the direction and image WotC and Hasbro are aiming for, Dark Sun has too much problematic content. I’m not advocating that this content is something that WotC needs to make material for, I’ve only been pointing out that purely from the abstract perspective of “someone somewhere is making a setting” including (not promoting, simply including) these elements is not an automatic red flag. It’s definitely not going to be a setting everyone will enjoy and there’s plenty of ways for the use of those elements to make the final product very unfortunate, but the mere decision to include them is neither good nor bad.
People that see the “forced breeding” and “slave race” bit and get triggered or at least severely uncomfortable. Kinda ruins the fun for them.
Yes, and I can totally understand if slavery and forced breeding and so on disagrees with someone. No question.
But it's like no one seems to hear the other part of the argument.
Mind Flayers do .... the exact .... same .... thing. And then they eat their victims brains for seasoning. Oh, and mind control. And a bajillion other kinds of cruelty even the sorcerer-kings of Athas never thought of.
So why are Mind Flayers ok, but Muls, Dark Sun, and slavery isn't?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
People that see the “forced breeding” and “slave race” bit and get triggered or at least severely uncomfortable. Kinda ruins the fun for them.
Yes, and I can totally understand if slavery and forced breeding and so on disagrees with someone. No question.
But it's like no one seems to hear the other part of the argument.
Mind Flayers do .... the exact .... same .... thing. And then they eat their victims brains for seasoning. Oh, and mind control. And a bajillion other kinds of cruelty even the sorcerer-kings of Athas never thought of.
So why are Mind Flayers ok, but Muls, Dark Sun, and slavery isn't?
Because muls and Dark Sun are too uncomfortably close to real world slavery, whereas mind flayers with the whole brain eating thing are purely fantasy. And even with mind flayers Wizards is de-emphasizing the slavery aspect of their culture (at least, I haven’t seen it mentioned in any non-legacy 5e products). That’s my best guess at least.
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I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
Do we really need another Dark Sun is problematic thread? Can we maybe stay on topic of half-dwarves without inserting Dark Sun's issues into the discussion? Please?
Do we really need another Dark Sun is problematic thread? Can we maybe stay on topic of half-dwarves without inserting Dark Sun's issues into the discussion? Please?
Ah, right. Sorry.
Well, I don’t see the point of adding half-dwarves specifically. There should be variations of every race, or at least the ones that make sense. Gnomes, halflings, firbolgs, goliaths, and more. And it sounds like that’s what WotC is doing, so hopefully it’ll be well-received.
Because muls and Dark Sun are too uncomfortably close to real world slavery, whereas mind flayers with the whole brain eating thing are purely fantasy. And even with mind flayers Wizards is de-emphasizing the slavery aspect of their culture (at least, I haven’t seen it mentioned in any non-legacy 5e products). That’s my best guess at least.
So it's better because it's worse? That's so insane it makes kinda sense. Alright, I'll consider the matter closed then =)
I'll admit I haven't read a word of Mind Flayer lore for 5e.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Do we really need another Dark Sun is problematic thread? Can we maybe stay on topic of half-dwarves without inserting Dark Sun's issues into the discussion? Please?
Ah, right. Sorry.
Well, I don’t see the point of adding half-dwarves specifically. There should be variations of every race, or at least the ones that make sense. Gnomes, halflings, firbolgs, goliaths, and more. And it sounds like that’s what WotC is doing, so hopefully it’ll be well-received.
No, they’re not doing variations; you just pick a single race block to get all your features from as of the Character Creation UA. It’s a decent solution, particularly for an open-ended pool like playable races, but there’s no mechanical customization aspect to it.
Do we really need another Dark Sun is problematic thread? Can we maybe stay on topic of half-dwarves without inserting Dark Sun's issues into the discussion? Please?
Ah, right. Sorry.
Well, I don’t see the point of adding half-dwarves specifically. There should be variations of every race, or at least the ones that make sense. Gnomes, halflings, firbolgs, goliaths, and more. And it sounds like that’s what WotC is doing, so hopefully it’ll be well-received.
No, they’re not doing variations; you just pick a single race block to get all your features from as of the Character Creation UA. It’s a decent solution, particularly for an open-ended pool like playable races, but there’s no mechanical customization aspect to it.
That’s what I meant. You can have anything you want, but it’s all flavor and the mechanics remain the same. Sorry for the confusion.
I doubt muls would be "half-dwarves" at all in an updated Dark Sun. Lore-wise, they'd be more like simic hybrids from Ravnica -- a species of their own, bred/created for a specific role
Maybe, maybe not. We won't know until they do it, which doesn't look to be anytime soon.
Well, I don’t see the point of adding half-dwarves specifically. There should be variations of every race, or at least the ones that make sense. Gnomes, halflings, firbolgs, goliaths, and more. And it sounds like that’s what WotC is doing, so hopefully it’ll be well-received.
This is ultimately my take, and one that I don't think is adequately represented in the above poll.
No, they’re not doing variations; you just pick a single race block to get all your features from as of the Character Creation UA. It’s a decent solution, particularly for an open-ended pool like playable races, but there’s no mechanical customization aspect to it.
My continued preference would be for a 1st-level feat that lets you pick a trait from the other parent - maybe disallowing any natural weapons, and perhaps with reduced effectiveness in some way for traits that are PB/LR. But that can come after core.
No, they’re not doing variations; you just pick a single race block to get all your features from as of the Character Creation UA. It’s a decent solution, particularly for an open-ended pool like playable races, but there’s no mechanical customization aspect to it.
My continued preference would be for a 1st-level feat that lets you pick a trait from the other parent - maybe disallowing any natural weapons, and perhaps with reduced effectiveness in some way for traits that are PB/LR. But that can come after core.
That doesn’t sound bad in theory, but it potentially presents a recurring issue that a feature on a future race might create a broken combo. Plus while they’re making feats core instead of hypothetically optional, mixed heritages still call for DM approval, so they might not want to have a feat that’s dependent on DM approval in core.
That doesn’t sound bad in theory, but it potentially presents a recurring issue that a feature on a future race might create a broken combo. Plus while they’re making feats core instead of hypothetically optional, mixed heritages still call for DM approval, so they might not want to have a feat that’s dependent on DM approval in core.
I agree - hence me saying "that can come after core" 😛
That doesn’t sound bad in theory, but it potentially presents a recurring issue that a feature on a future race might create a broken combo. Plus while they’re making feats core instead of hypothetically optional, mixed heritages still call for DM approval, so they might not want to have a feat that’s dependent on DM approval in core.
I agree - hence me saying "that can come after core" 😛
I’m not sure I’d bank on the official team making it even to go with the next big race compilation.
No, they’re not doing variations; you just pick a single race block to get all your features from as of the Character Creation UA. It’s a decent solution, particularly for an open-ended pool like playable races, but there’s no mechanical customization aspect to it.
My continued preference would be for a 1st-level feat that lets you pick a trait from the other parent - maybe disallowing any natural weapons, and perhaps with reduced effectiveness in some way for traits that are PB/LR. But that can come after core.
Have you seen the pf2e method?
Every character gets a racial feat at character creation. And for humans, you can choose half elf or half orc as the human racial feat. It’s an interesting solution, but it’s very limited as you can only have a human/elf or human/orc. No options for a dwarf/halfling or what have you. Less choices, but makes it so you can’t have any crazy broken combos.
Every character gets a racial feat at character creation. And for humans, you can choose half elf or half orc as the human racial feat. It’s an interesting solution, but it’s very limited as you can only have a human/elf or human/orc. No options for a dwarf/halfling or what have you. Less choices, but makes it so you can’t have any crazy broken combos.
See, I think restricting it to humanoid already cuts out most of the broken stuff, I wouldn't want to restrict it to specific humanoid species. If they want to make something truly exotic in the future that can't be hybridized, there are a number of other creature types they can use for that.
I say, Dwarves cannot breed with other races because they do not reproduce the same way. Dwarves, in my completely unofficial headcanon, reproduce more like bacteria where the beard grows so large that it becomes a new dwarf. That would explain why dwarves are so protective and proud of their beards, universally, and why female dwarfs are rare in fiction (especially the sorts of fiction that D&D is founded on like Lord of The Rings).
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[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
I’d also point out that purely on the basis of a character wanting to be half-dwarf in this setting, there’s no reason they would have to be a Mul; presumably dwarves and various other races exist in the setting, and given that the setting clearly allows for relationships between the two to result in offspring there’s no reason you couldn’t be a typical half dwarf. The prominent existence of one particular demographic of half dwarf in the narrative doesn’t intrinsically preclude any other origin as a possibility. Depending on the details of the setting and the DM there might be some social consequences as a result of playing such a character, but that’s often part of the point when a player is designing such a character, and at the IRL level the table itself should moderate that based on everyone’s comfort level with such content, as per usual for roleplay.
I agree with Nothic 100%.
I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
I've had half-dwarfs and half-elf/dwarfs since the early 90's.
I will have them regardless of D&D adding them in.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Yeah, as I’ve said, for the direction and image WotC and Hasbro are aiming for, Dark Sun has too much problematic content. I’m not advocating that this content is something that WotC needs to make material for, I’ve only been pointing out that purely from the abstract perspective of “someone somewhere is making a setting” including (not promoting, simply including) these elements is not an automatic red flag. It’s definitely not going to be a setting everyone will enjoy and there’s plenty of ways for the use of those elements to make the final product very unfortunate, but the mere decision to include them is neither good nor bad.
Yes, and I can totally understand if slavery and forced breeding and so on disagrees with someone. No question.
But it's like no one seems to hear the other part of the argument.
Mind Flayers do .... the exact .... same .... thing. And then they eat their victims brains for seasoning. Oh, and mind control. And a bajillion other kinds of cruelty even the sorcerer-kings of Athas never thought of.
So why are Mind Flayers ok, but Muls, Dark Sun, and slavery isn't?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Because muls and Dark Sun are too uncomfortably close to real world slavery, whereas mind flayers with the whole brain eating thing are purely fantasy. And even with mind flayers Wizards is de-emphasizing the slavery aspect of their culture (at least, I haven’t seen it mentioned in any non-legacy 5e products). That’s my best guess at least.
I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
Do we really need another Dark Sun is problematic thread? Can we maybe stay on topic of half-dwarves without inserting Dark Sun's issues into the discussion? Please?
Ah, right. Sorry.
Well, I don’t see the point of adding half-dwarves specifically. There should be variations of every race, or at least the ones that make sense. Gnomes, halflings, firbolgs, goliaths, and more. And it sounds like that’s what WotC is doing, so hopefully it’ll be well-received.
Terra Lubridia archive:
The Bloody Barnacle | The Gut | The Athene Crusader | The Jewel of Atlantis
So it's better because it's worse? That's so insane it makes kinda sense. Alright, I'll consider the matter closed then =)
I'll admit I haven't read a word of Mind Flayer lore for 5e.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
No, they’re not doing variations; you just pick a single race block to get all your features from as of the Character Creation UA. It’s a decent solution, particularly for an open-ended pool like playable races, but there’s no mechanical customization aspect to it.
That’s what I meant. You can have anything you want, but it’s all flavor and the mechanics remain the same. Sorry for the confusion.
Terra Lubridia archive:
The Bloody Barnacle | The Gut | The Athene Crusader | The Jewel of Atlantis
Maybe, maybe not. We won't know until they do it, which doesn't look to be anytime soon.
This is ultimately my take, and one that I don't think is adequately represented in the above poll.
My continued preference would be for a 1st-level feat that lets you pick a trait from the other parent - maybe disallowing any natural weapons, and perhaps with reduced effectiveness in some way for traits that are PB/LR. But that can come after core.
That doesn’t sound bad in theory, but it potentially presents a recurring issue that a feature on a future race might create a broken combo. Plus while they’re making feats core instead of hypothetically optional, mixed heritages still call for DM approval, so they might not want to have a feat that’s dependent on DM approval in core.
I agree - hence me saying "that can come after core" 😛
I’m not sure I’d bank on the official team making it even to go with the next big race compilation.
That won't stop me mentioning it. And if it never happens, I'll be fine either way.
And there’s always homebrew.
Terra Lubridia archive:
The Bloody Barnacle | The Gut | The Athene Crusader | The Jewel of Atlantis
Have you seen the pf2e method?
Every character gets a racial feat at character creation. And for humans, you can choose half elf or half orc as the human racial feat. It’s an interesting solution, but it’s very limited as you can only have a human/elf or human/orc. No options for a dwarf/halfling or what have you.
Less choices, but makes it so you can’t have any crazy broken combos.
That's basically what Critical Role proposed, yes.
See, I think restricting it to humanoid already cuts out most of the broken stuff, I wouldn't want to restrict it to specific humanoid species. If they want to make something truly exotic in the future that can't be hybridized, there are a number of other creature types they can use for that.
I say, Dwarves cannot breed with other races because they do not reproduce the same way. Dwarves, in my completely unofficial headcanon, reproduce more like bacteria where the beard grows so large that it becomes a new dwarf. That would explain why dwarves are so protective and proud of their beards, universally, and why female dwarfs are rare in fiction (especially the sorts of fiction that D&D is founded on like Lord of The Rings).
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"