Using the suggested method for characters of mixed heritage in UA1, a character with mixed dwarf and human parentage could, for example, be built as a human who takes the Tough and Crafter feats at level 1. Alternatively, you could build them as a dwarf who’s a few inches taller than average and has, perhaps, the Skilled feat to represent that strain of human versatility.
That may be the way that wotc is going, but it is still awful, and still results in amorphous goo. No, the best way is for there to be an extremely limited amount of playable species (like 6, tops), and each has its unique abilities. No allowing players to cherry pick the best options.
Using the suggested method for characters of mixed heritage in UA1, a character with mixed dwarf and human parentage could, for example, be built as a human who takes the Tough and Crafter feats at level 1. Alternatively, you could build them as a dwarf who’s a few inches taller than average and has, perhaps, the Skilled feat to represent that strain of human versatility.
That may be the way that wotc is going, but it is still awful, and still results in amorphous goo. No, the best way is for there to be an extremely limited amount of playable species (like 6, tops), and each has its unique abilities. No allowing players to cherry pick the best options.
Right, because if there’s one thing we know most D&D players want, it’s fewer options for designing a character.
Using the suggested method for characters of mixed heritage in UA1, a character with mixed dwarf and human parentage could, for example, be built as a human who takes the Tough and Crafter feats at level 1. Alternatively, you could build them as a dwarf who’s a few inches taller than average and has, perhaps, the Skilled feat to represent that strain of human versatility.
That may be the way that wotc is going, but it is still awful, and still results in amorphous goo. No, the best way is for there to be an extremely limited amount of playable species (like 6, tops), and each has its unique abilities. No allowing players to cherry pick the best options.
Right, because if there’s one thing we know most D&D players want, it’s fewer options for designing a character.
Most of the player base is conditioned to believe that "more is better", but that is flawed reasoning. Let's be clear here. If we JUST took the PHB as the only source of char-building material, the combinations and permutations could not all be covered by a single player in a lifetime of playing D&D. There are hundreds, even thousands, of possibilities, just within that one book.
Let's be honest about why most players want all these options: They want to min-max, cherry picking every feature, so they player can create the uber-PC that dominates a game. That is "having fun".
It is "not fun" to play a PC that is not over-powered compared to other PC's or against the encounters the DM creates. It is "not fun" to have the game be a challenge, where players sometimes have to avoid a fight/encounter, or even run away, because the dice gods frowned upon the players that day.
Let's be honest about why most players want all these options: They want to min-max, cherry picking every feature, so they player can create the uber-PC that dominates a game. That is "having fun".
That assessment doesn't seem very honest (or accurate) to me.
Really? Why on earth would someone want to play a Dwarf that has Elven Advantage? Actually, "why" I get. But there is no way anyone can justify creating such a PC, other than min-maxing. No player has ever been an Elf. No player has ever been a Dwarf. ALL players have been, and only have been, and always only be, Humans. To say "I want to explore the culture of being a Dwarf with an Elven heritage" is impossible for a human being to do. That is merely the excuse to build an OP PC. ALL PC's are merely an avatar of the player, who is a human being. It can be nothing else, by definition. That means players may choose to play an Elf, but it is just a human looking like an Elf. It is cosplay, nothing more.
Oh, and BTW, my go-to 5e PC's are Halfling Rogues, Human Battlemasters, Half-Elven anything, and Elven Wizards, and NEVER use any rule from Tasha's or later on building the PC's, and ALWAYS use 27 point buy or Std Array. I choose each of these species/class combos based on their mechanical synergy, just like any other player does. I know that I am a human being, and NOT an Elf, so that PC is going to have human motivations, just like every other human being playing D&D.
Why on earth would someone want to play a Dwarf that has Elven Advantage?
(I don't think anyone is talking about that, but)
1) There is no rule in 5e (including Tasha's) or OneDnD that would allow it. This isn't how the new species rules work, and they don't appear to be supporting "racial" feats anymore (probably because they're trying to move away from such backward-ass thinking).
2) Elven Accuracy is either universally broken or totally overvalued, depending on who you talk to (or how well you know the math). Regardless, "It's totally broken, unless you're playing an Elf!" doesn't make any sense, especially when elves and half-elves are already extra-powerful options.
3) I dunno, because they want the elf mechanics but the dwarf culture? Because they don't give a shit about keeping the races "separate"? Because we're all part of the same compost heap?
... ALL PC's are merely an avatar of the player, who is a human being. It can be nothing else, by definition. That means players may choose to play an Elf, but it is just a human looking like an Elf. It is cosplay, nothing more.
Cosplay is valid roleplaying. So is "not caring about race mechanics."
Using the suggested method for characters of mixed heritage in UA1, a character with mixed dwarf and human parentage could, for example, be built as a human who takes the Tough and Crafter feats at level 1. Alternatively, you could build them as a dwarf who’s a few inches taller than average and has, perhaps, the Skilled feat to represent that strain of human versatility.
That may be the way that wotc is going, but it is still awful, and still results in amorphous goo. No, the best way is for there to be an extremely limited amount of playable species (like 6, tops), and each has its unique abilities. No allowing players to cherry pick the best options.
Right, because if there’s one thing we know most D&D players want, it’s fewer options for designing a character.
Most of the player base is conditioned to believe that "more is better", but that is flawed reasoning. Let's be clear here. If we JUST took the PHB as the only source of char-building material, the combinations and permutations could not all be covered by a single player in a lifetime of playing D&D. There are hundreds, even thousands, of possibilities, just within that one book.
Let's be honest about why most players want all these options: They want to min-max, cherry picking every feature, so they player can create the uber-PC that dominates a game. That is "having fun".
It is "not fun" to play a PC that is not over-powered compared to other PC's or against the encounters the DM creates. It is "not fun" to have the game be a challenge, where players sometimes have to avoid a fight/encounter, or even run away, because the dice gods frowned upon the players that day.
We get it, there’s one and only one correct way to have fun when playing D&D. Luckily there’s folks around to remind us of the true path.
Now can we get back to the topic?
If the game are to stick to the 2014 rules, there’s custom lineage rules in Tasha’s that could let you make a half-dwarf pretty easily. And you could use it no matter what the other half is meant to be. And as others have noted, the 2024 rules, from what we’ve seen will allow it even more easily. So, I answered the poll with “wouldn’t make sense” not because of some kind of fantasy biology issues, but because you already can make a half-dwarf both now and in what’s planned for the future, so a specific designed species would go against design standards and isn’t necessary.
I'm pretty happy with the way One D&D is handling hybrid races.
Certainly beats whatever the hell they were thinking when they wrote Dark Sun
Dark Sun was released in 1991, different owners, times and writers. It sold well too.
The dudes made a forcably-bred-into-slavery hybrid race made for forced labor and literally called it a mule. I, too, was released in 1991. The 90s weren't long enough ago that this sort of lazy and "problematic" fiction was mainstream.
You are correct about the different writers. I am thankful for that.
Oh, and BTW, my go-to 5e PC's are Halfling Rogues, Human Battlemasters, Half-Elven anything, and Elven Wizards, and NEVER use any rule from Tasha's or later on building the PC's, and ALWAYS use 27 point buy or Std Array. I choose each of these species/class combos based on their mechanical synergy, just like any other player does.
I invite you to consider the possibility that people who are not you may have motivations that are not yours. Just because you're playing the combinations that you think get you the most plusses, that doesn't mean it's everyone's motivation. Getting into the head of somebody who thinks unlike you is a useful skill to have in RPG-land.
By far the most common reason for a character building choice is "that sounds cool". Having more species to pick from gives people more parts to make their cool ideas from. It also gives us parts to build worlds that are less based upon the same choices Tolkien made a century ago. Very few DMs use them all, or even a substantial fraction.
I know that I am a human being, and NOT an Elf, so that PC is going to have human motivations, just like every other human being playing D&D.
Even if one accepts that is true, so what? By that argument, nobody should play anything but humans. Which is a valid fantasy setting, but it's not, and never has been, D&Ds. One cannot play an elf wrong (or right), because they don't exist. Multiple intelligent species serve a number of narrative functions. Exploring the question of "what might people be like if they weren't like us?" is a common one. And even if they're just us, reflected in a funhouse mirror, they're still useful tools for examining the human condition.
(Also, I do think that people can make characters with motivations that aren't human. It's hard, but there are definitely writers out there who can make truly alien aliens, and there's no reason to think there's anything quantitatively different about an RPG. It is, however, rarely what's wanted.)
Really? Why on earth would someone want to play a Dwarf that has Elven Advantage? Actually, "why" I get. But there is no way anyone can justify creating such a PC, other than min-maxing. No player has ever been an Elf. No player has ever been a Dwarf. ALL players have been, and only have been, and always only be, Humans. To say "I want to explore the culture of being a Dwarf with an Elven heritage" is impossible for a human being to do. That is merely the excuse to build an OP PC. ALL PC's are merely an avatar of the player, who is a human being. It can be nothing else, by definition. That means players may choose to play an Elf, but it is just a human looking like an Elf. It is cosplay, nothing more.
Oh, and BTW, my go-to 5e PC's are Halfling Rogues, Human Battlemasters, Half-Elven anything, and Elven Wizards, and NEVER use any rule from Tasha's or later on building the PC's, and ALWAYS use 27 point buy or Std Array. I choose each of these species/class combos based on their mechanical synergy, just like any other player does. I know that I am a human being, and NOT an Elf, so that PC is going to have human motivations, just like every other human being playing D&D.
Wait what are you talking about? The best character I ever played was a gnome barbarian. I certainly wasn't optimizing anything. The little bastard couldn't even use a greatsword. I really hope I just don't understand what you're saying.
To my mind, it's a terrible idea. Simply do away with the half-races. You play and elf, or a human, or an orc. If a human and an orc have a lovechild, it becomes either a human or an orc. Done and dusted. Because otherwise it just never ends: Oh, but what about orc/elf, or gnome/ogre, or goblin/halfling. No, the boot has to come down to stop the madness before it spreads.
You can ban the option at all of your tables if you wish. Also, Ogres aren't humanoids.
(Also, I do think that people can make characters with motivations that aren't human. It's hard, but there are definitely writers out there who can make truly alien aliens, and there's no reason to think there's anything quantitatively different about an RPG. It is, however, rarely what's wanted.)
Adding to this - just because WotC species work a certain way doesn't mean an individual table can't deviate from that. If a specific playgroup thinks elves should be completely alien beings with no human concept of death or romance or community, they can do that, they don't need WotC's permission.
(Also, I do think that people can make characters with motivations that aren't human. It's hard, but there are definitely writers out there who can make truly alien aliens, and there's no reason to think there's anything quantitatively different about an RPG. It is, however, rarely what's wanted.)
Adding to this - just because WotC species work a certain way doesn't mean an individual table can't deviate from that. If a specific playgroup thinks elves should be completely alien beings with no human concept of death or romance or community, they can do that, they don't need WotC's permission.
I'd argue that elves, in particular, ought to have very different ideas about all of those than we do; the sheer scope of the difference in lifespan has to matter there. (Even more true for Tolkien-style true immortals.)
Really? Why on earth would someone want to play a Dwarf that has Elven Advantage? Actually, "why" I get. But there is no way anyone can justify creating such a PC, other than min-maxing. No player has ever been an Elf. No player has ever been a Dwarf. ALL players have been, and only have been, and always only be, Humans. To say "I want to explore the culture of being a Dwarf with an Elven heritage" is impossible for a human being to do. That is merely the excuse to build an OP PC. ALL PC's are merely an avatar of the player, who is a human being. It can be nothing else, by definition. That means players may choose to play an Elf, but it is just a human looking like an Elf. It is cosplay, nothing more.
Oh, and BTW, my go-to 5e PC's are Halfling Rogues, Human Battlemasters, Half-Elven anything, and Elven Wizards, and NEVER use any rule from Tasha's or later on building the PC's, and ALWAYS use 27 point buy or Std Array. I choose each of these species/class combos based on their mechanical synergy, just like any other player does. I know that I am a human being, and NOT an Elf, so that PC is going to have human motivations, just like every other human being playing D&D.
Just because you don't understand roleplaying doesn't mean the game should be tailored to your particular set of abilities. Also, what percentile is your IQ? Do you limit your elven wizards to an appropriate intelligence?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Coriana - Company of the Grey Chain Wagner - Dragon Heist: Bards. DM - The Old Keep
I'm pretty happy with the way One D&D is handling hybrid races.
Certainly beats whatever the hell they were thinking when they wrote Dark Sun
Dark Sun was released in 1991, different owners, times and writers. It sold well too.
So did Rob Liefeld comics and Limp Bizkit albums
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
For another approach to PCs with parents of different species, the Tal'Dorei Reborn book offers this:
Mixed Ancestry Statistics
Only certain combinations of ancestries, such as half-elves and half-orcs, already have racial traits described in the fifth edition core rules. You can use these racial traits as is, or create your own mixed ancestry from any two races by choosing one or two racial traits from one parent’s race and exchanging them for the same number of traits from another parent’s race.
When you build a character of mixed ancestry, keep in mind that some racial traits are more mechanically powerful than others, while some are largely flavorful or narrative focused. As such, focus on swapping a narrative trait for another narrative trait, or a combat-focused trait for another combat-focused trait. Additionally, you must have your Game Master’s permission to use your replacement traits. As with any house rule, you and your Game Master might want to revisit your unique combination of traits later in the campaign if they feel overpowered or underpowered.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
For another approach to PCs with parents of different species, the Tal'Dorei Reborn book offers this:
Mixed Ancestry Statistics
Only certain combinations of ancestries, such as half-elves and half-orcs, already have racial traits described in the fifth edition core rules. You can use these racial traits as is, or create your own mixed ancestry from any two races by choosing one or two racial traits from one parent’s race and exchanging them for the same number of traits from another parent’s race.
When you build a character of mixed ancestry, keep in mind that some racial traits are more mechanically powerful than others, while some are largely flavorful or narrative focused. As such, focus on swapping a narrative trait for another narrative trait, or a combat-focused trait for another combat-focused trait. Additionally, you must have your Game Master’s permission to use your replacement traits. As with any house rule, you and your Game Master might want to revisit your unique combination of traits later in the campaign if they feel overpowered or underpowered.
Has anyone (here) actually tried this? What was the example? How did it work out?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Most of the player base is conditioned to believe that "more is better", but that is flawed reasoning.
It's just common sense if you want a large customer base. A 12-race system can serve the needs of someone who wants 6 races just as easily as someone who wants all 12. A 6-race system only serves the needs of one of those groups. More is better, because it's easier to subtract options than it is to add them.
You can still have characters of mixed heritage, they’ll just be one species or the other for mechanical purposes.
I really like D&D, especially Ravenloft, Exandria and the Upside Down from Stranger Things. My pronouns are she/they (genderfae).
That may be the way that wotc is going, but it is still awful, and still results in amorphous goo. No, the best way is for there to be an extremely limited amount of playable species (like 6, tops), and each has its unique abilities. No allowing players to cherry pick the best options.
Right, because if there’s one thing we know most D&D players want, it’s fewer options for designing a character.
Most of the player base is conditioned to believe that "more is better", but that is flawed reasoning. Let's be clear here. If we JUST took the PHB as the only source of char-building material, the combinations and permutations could not all be covered by a single player in a lifetime of playing D&D. There are hundreds, even thousands, of possibilities, just within that one book.
Let's be honest about why most players want all these options: They want to min-max, cherry picking every feature, so they player can create the uber-PC that dominates a game. That is "having fun".
It is "not fun" to play a PC that is not over-powered compared to other PC's or against the encounters the DM creates. It is "not fun" to have the game be a challenge, where players sometimes have to avoid a fight/encounter, or even run away, because the dice gods frowned upon the players that day.
That assessment doesn't seem very honest (or accurate) to me.
Really? Why on earth would someone want to play a Dwarf that has Elven Advantage? Actually, "why" I get. But there is no way anyone can justify creating such a PC, other than min-maxing. No player has ever been an Elf. No player has ever been a Dwarf. ALL players have been, and only have been, and always only be, Humans. To say "I want to explore the culture of being a Dwarf with an Elven heritage" is impossible for a human being to do. That is merely the excuse to build an OP PC. ALL PC's are merely an avatar of the player, who is a human being. It can be nothing else, by definition. That means players may choose to play an Elf, but it is just a human looking like an Elf. It is cosplay, nothing more.
Oh, and BTW, my go-to 5e PC's are Halfling Rogues, Human Battlemasters, Half-Elven anything, and Elven Wizards, and NEVER use any rule from Tasha's or later on building the PC's, and ALWAYS use 27 point buy or Std Array. I choose each of these species/class combos based on their mechanical synergy, just like any other player does. I know that I am a human being, and NOT an Elf, so that PC is going to have human motivations, just like every other human being playing D&D.
(I don't think anyone is talking about that, but)
1) There is no rule in 5e (including Tasha's) or OneDnD that would allow it. This isn't how the new species rules work, and they don't appear to be supporting "racial" feats anymore (probably because they're trying to move away from such backward-ass thinking).
2) Elven Accuracy is either universally broken or totally overvalued, depending on who you talk to (or how well you know the math). Regardless, "It's totally broken, unless you're playing an Elf!" doesn't make any sense, especially when elves and half-elves are already extra-powerful options.
3) I dunno, because they want the elf mechanics but the dwarf culture? Because they don't give a shit about keeping the races "separate"? Because we're all part of the same compost heap?
Cosplay is valid roleplaying. So is "not caring about race mechanics."
Dark Sun was released in 1991, different owners, times and writers. It sold well too.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
We get it, there’s one and only one correct way to have fun when playing D&D. Luckily there’s folks around to remind us of the true path.
Now can we get back to the topic?
If the game are to stick to the 2014 rules, there’s custom lineage rules in Tasha’s that could let you make a half-dwarf pretty easily. And you could use it no matter what the other half is meant to be. And as others have noted, the 2024 rules, from what we’ve seen will allow it even more easily. So, I answered the poll with “wouldn’t make sense” not because of some kind of fantasy biology issues, but because you already can make a half-dwarf both now and in what’s planned for the future, so a specific designed species would go against design standards and isn’t necessary.
The dudes made a forcably-bred-into-slavery hybrid race made for forced labor and literally called it a mule. I, too, was released in 1991. The 90s weren't long enough ago that this sort of lazy and "problematic" fiction was mainstream.
You are correct about the different writers. I am thankful for that.
That's a whole can-o-worms, though.
I invite you to consider the possibility that people who are not you may have motivations that are not yours. Just because you're playing the combinations that you think get you the most plusses, that doesn't mean it's everyone's motivation. Getting into the head of somebody who thinks unlike you is a useful skill to have in RPG-land.
By far the most common reason for a character building choice is "that sounds cool". Having more species to pick from gives people more parts to make their cool ideas from. It also gives us parts to build worlds that are less based upon the same choices Tolkien made a century ago. Very few DMs use them all, or even a substantial fraction.
Even if one accepts that is true, so what? By that argument, nobody should play anything but humans. Which is a valid fantasy setting, but it's not, and never has been, D&Ds. One cannot play an elf wrong (or right), because they don't exist. Multiple intelligent species serve a number of narrative functions. Exploring the question of "what might people be like if they weren't like us?" is a common one. And even if they're just us, reflected in a funhouse mirror, they're still useful tools for examining the human condition.
(Also, I do think that people can make characters with motivations that aren't human. It's hard, but there are definitely writers out there who can make truly alien aliens, and there's no reason to think there's anything quantitatively different about an RPG. It is, however, rarely what's wanted.)
Wait what are you talking about? The best character I ever played was a gnome barbarian. I certainly wasn't optimizing anything. The little bastard couldn't even use a greatsword. I really hope I just don't understand what you're saying.
You can ban the option at all of your tables if you wish. Also, Ogres aren't humanoids.
Incorrect.
"More than six" certainly is better. It's 2024, not 1974.
Adding to this - just because WotC species work a certain way doesn't mean an individual table can't deviate from that. If a specific playgroup thinks elves should be completely alien beings with no human concept of death or romance or community, they can do that, they don't need WotC's permission.
I'd argue that elves, in particular, ought to have very different ideas about all of those than we do; the sheer scope of the difference in lifespan has to matter there. (Even more true for Tolkien-style true immortals.)
(But this is getting way off-topic.)
Just because you don't understand roleplaying doesn't mean the game should be tailored to your particular set of abilities. Also, what percentile is your IQ? Do you limit your elven wizards to an appropriate intelligence?
Coriana - Company of the Grey Chain
Wagner - Dragon Heist: Bards.
DM - The Old Keep
Sure, though I'd argue there's a difference in degree between "very different" and "completely alien" too.
Regardless, the point is, the DM has the power to land wherever they feel comfortable.
So did Rob Liefeld comics and Limp Bizkit albums
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
For another approach to PCs with parents of different species, the Tal'Dorei Reborn book offers this:
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Has anyone (here) actually tried this? What was the example? How did it work out?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It's just common sense if you want a large customer base. A 12-race system can serve the needs of someone who wants 6 races just as easily as someone who wants all 12. A 6-race system only serves the needs of one of those groups. More is better, because it's easier to subtract options than it is to add them.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm