I have a disability that I think will be helped by using a digital system like this one to manage my character during our irl weekly game sessions.
Now, at first, I understood when I realized, "Oh, of course DNDB wants to sell me a book. Duh."
Then I learned that DnDB IS WOTC, which means they are getting my monthly subscription in perpetuity for as long as I am playing in their sandbox AND they want me to buy their books. Again, mind you.
That's a money grab.
I have only been playing for 6 months. I am housebound and 80% bedridden and this is basically my only contact with the outside world. Shame on the Wizards for rivaling pretty much anything found in the huge deck of Monster cards I just bought.
I am cancelling my script before my trial ends and going with a homebrew spreadsheet. Not nearly as "pretty" or user friendly, but hella "nicer".
also many have said they bought piece-meal due to only wanting what they wanted from the book - yet also go onto say they already own the physical books, could it be that people buy piece-meal due to already owning the content rather then being a "new player" with zero physical books in their possession??
I wonder if you have also considered that just maybe the decision to remove piecemeal purchases has affected a sweeping range of players with various differing experience levels that made use of the system to meet their varying and specific needs?
If you can do without it, then that's awesome but it does however hurt the players who made use of it and prevents future players from making use of it.
As I am brand new to the site, and had only built one free character before with no issues, I was pretty dismayed when I purchased a six month sub, started to put my existing hard-copy level 9 Tiefling Paladin I to the system only discover that I could NOT do so without BUYING a book. I own the dang book. I am looking at it right now. And I just paid for a script to the company the publishes said book. And if my character is on the site and I want to keep playing her, and create more, and keep using the tools, I will keep paying a monthly amount. For, like, EVER.
For everyone complaining about needing to buy books again because you went physical first, the core class features are all free from basic rules, and you can use Homebrew to recreate any subclasses, spells, feats, etc. you already have physically so long as you keep that homebrew in your private collection rather than making it public. Is that notably less convenient than having it pre-built? Yes. That is what you're paying for when you buy the product on D&DB, the convenience of someone else having spent the time and effort to set up all these things so they integrate with the character sheet. And charging a monthly amount cheaper than a lot of fast food meals anymore in exchange for access to their creation tools and near unlimited storage is hardly an egregious ask. Again, this is a for-profit enterprise for a hobby, not a charity, and on top of that a website like this with all these integrated components does require continuous upkeep. The physical books and this site are two separate products; owning one does not create any obligation for WotC to provide you with the other gratis.
I have a disability that I think will be helped by using a digital system like this one to manage my character during our irl weekly game sessions.
Now, at first, I understood when I realized, "Oh, of course DNDB wants to sell me a book. Duh."
Then I learned that DnDB IS WOTC, which means they are getting my monthly subscription in perpetuity for as long as I am playing in their sandbox AND they want me to buy their books. Again, mind you.
That's a money grab.
I have only been playing for 6 months. I am housebound and 80% bedridden and this is basically my only contact with the outside world. Shame on the Wizards for rivaling pretty much anything found in the huge deck of Monster cards I just bought.
I am cancelling my script before my trial ends and going with a homebrew spreadsheet. Not nearly as "pretty" or user friendly, but hella "nicer".
As with any new hobby, it is best to learn about the hobby first before spending a single penny. Especially with a niche hobby like D&D and TTRPGs, not many people would consider trying it, and even after they tried it, not many like it. Additionally, specifically in D&D's case (and TTRPGs in general), players often do not need to spend money because GMs often provide all, or at least most, of the resources. If money is an issue, I would return or sell the books you bought, and find games where the GM can provide the resources you need.
Beyond is not the only official digital toolset. Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, and Foundry are the three other official toolsets, and they are all fully mature VTT platforms. While Beyond does have its VTT, it is still in active development and nowhere near mature yet. See if those other platforms suit your needs better. However, be aware that if you want to use more than the free content, you will still have to pay regardless of the platform. Just as with any movie, videogame, music, or any other form of entertainment, you will have to buy content again if you switch to another medium or platform. D&D books are no exception. Just like you and me who got bills to pay and mouths to feed, Beyond's (and other company's) employees got bills to pay and mouths to feed too, not to mention all the maintaince and other expenses running a business incurs.
Sheets, Excel, or whatever program you use will defnitely work, but it will not be as automated nor convenient compared to dedicated digital character sheets. Spreadsheets are definitely more flexible, and potentially work even better, but if you want it to work as effortlessly as a dedicated digital character sheet, it is going to take quite a bit of work.
D&D is the leader in the TTRPG industry, and while that comes with many conveniences and quality of life improvements that other TTRPGs simply do not have, those things also cost money. But as mentioned before, generally speaking, GMs are the one footing the bill, so players do not have to pay for much if at all.
reading through this thread after the post on the homepage, ive started to have a few questions... (mainly just my curiosity) people have mentioned "new players" being hurt by not being able to buy piece-meal - yet new players have access to the basic rules content for free (personally that is where i first went upon joining the dndbeyond community), this same section also comes with a free adventure if memory serves, so i ask why a "new player" would buy piece-meal to dip their toe when they can dip their toes for free (within the dnd beyond site)?? unsure since ive never had a master subscription but as for people buying for others (i assume you know the person and want to play a game with them, otherwise why buy for them) why not just get a master subscription and share with those people - wouldnt it accomplish the same goal for less??
also many have said they bought piece-meal due to only wanting what they wanted from the book - yet also go onto say they already own the physical books, could it be that people buy piece-meal due to already owning the content rather then being a "new player" with zero physical books in their possession??
im also starting to wonder if some just want to see dndbeyond burn for anything and everything, why change to a new game or website when you still have access to the same tools allowing you to play dnd?? - the content you own is still at your disposal..
personally im neither for nor against piece-meal purchases, it would be nice but can do without it - besides the initial lack of heads up, its a non issue in my mind. im just waiting for the new PHB, DMG and MM to become available before considering what else i may or may not purchase in the future
I've answered the questions as best as I can interpret them:
Why do new players piecemeal purchasing when they have free adventures?
Because they're still expanding their collection. They don't need it to experience D&D, but it's helpful in letting them see what they're buying. For example, they have a single subclass for each of the 12 base classes, this would let them see if they enjoy their class more with a different flavour. Bored of the Life Cleric? Well, is the problem the class or is changing the flavour of Cleric to Peace Cleric enough to revitalise it? Piecemeal allowed that experimentation without forcing you to get the boom.
Why not get a Master Tier Sub to share with new players?
I'm not entirely sure of your intent here. I believe it's against the intent (though maybe not the ToS) for me to do that with random newbies. The other angle is that not everyone has friends with lots of content on here. I don't. Subs can also be adding costs without adding independence - they'll be paying the sub, but won't have anything to show for it afterwards when they leave. Master Tier Sub can be great, but it has its drawbacks.
Could it be that piecemeal purchasing benefits owners of physical copies more than new players?
Sure. I'm not sure why this is a counterargument. If I say that you benefitted from DDB, then I point out that I benefit from it even more...how does that deprecate what you said? However, the Venn diagram there has a lot of overlap in my experience. People coming to DDB often have already bought physical stuff (usually the PHB), then heard about DDB and came here (hence the common complaint about not getting DDB for free). A lot of people who are new to the game on DDB are people who already have some physical stuff.
Why change to a different website or media when you already have stuff here?
I'd point out that you've already answered this in your closing paragraph. They're already deprecating part of our purchases in a few months +not complaining, simply observing). For me, the main books keeping me here are my purchases of the five core+expansion rulebooks - all five of which are slated to be deprecated. I have adventures too, but I'm not bound to this website for those. This is a very good time for me and many others to be reconsidering where I buy the next edition (or to just nope out, I guess), and they've just made it very much more expensive to continue with them...while not offering anything new of additional significant value to compensate (I play in an FLGS with no internet access...a VTT is useless to me even if I don't prefer minis...or had a Master Sub).
As a note, no, I really don't want "dndbeyond to burn". When the OGL "crisis" occurred, I was one of the most vociferous defenders of WotC, even to the point of having death threats sent against me - not because I felt WotC was perfect, but because what was being said against them was mostly BS and lies. That's not the case now, and so I'm speaking up in the hopes that WotC sees reason and backs off on this.
DDB and WotC have seemingly done their level best over the last year to drive me, but I'm speaking up because I want DDB to work for me. This is one of those shortsighted cash grabs that will give short term profit as people feel the immediate need to get content, but will cost them in the long run when the people that feature was tempting into ecosystem are no longer tempted.
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reading through this thread after the post on the homepage, ive started to have a few questions... (mainly just my curiosity) people have mentioned "new players" being hurt by not being able to buy piece-meal - yet new players have access to the basic rules content for free (personally that is where i first went upon joining the dndbeyond community), this same section also comes with a free adventure if memory serves, so i ask why a "new player" would buy piece-meal to dip their toe when they can dip their toes for free (within the dnd beyond site)?? unsure since ive never had a master subscription but as for people buying for others (i assume you know the person and want to play a game with them, otherwise why buy for them) why not just get a master subscription and share with those people - wouldnt it accomplish the same goal for less??
also many have said they bought piece-meal due to only wanting what they wanted from the book - yet also go onto say they already own the physical books, could it be that people buy piece-meal due to already owning the content rather then being a "new player" with zero physical books in their possession??
im also starting to wonder if some just want to see dndbeyond burn for anything and everything, why change to a new game or website when you still have access to the same tools allowing you to play dnd?? - the content you own is still at your disposal..
personally im neither for nor against piece-meal purchases, it would be nice but can do without it - besides the initial lack of heads up, its a non issue in my mind. im just waiting for the new PHB, DMG and MM to become available before considering what else i may or may not purchase in the future
I've answered the questions as best as I can interpret them:
Why do new players piecemeal purchasing when they have free adventures?
Because they're still expanding their collection. They don't need it to experience D&D, but it's helpful in letting them see what they're buying. For example, they have a single subclass for each of the 12 base classes, this would let them see if they enjoy their class more with a different flavour. Bored of the Life Cleric? Well, is the problem the class or is changing the flavour of Cleric to Peace Cleric enough to revitalise it? Piecemeal allowed that experimentation without forcing you to get the boom.
Why not get a Master Tier Sub to share with new players?
I'm not entirely sure of your intent here. I believe it's against the intent (though maybe not the ToS) for me to do that with random newbies. The other angle is that not everyone has friends with lots of content on here. I don't. Subs can also be adding costs without adding independence - they'll be paying the sub, but won't have anything to show for it afterwards when they leave. Master Tier Sub can be great, but it has its drawbacks.
Could it be that piecemeal purchasing benefits owners of physical copies more than new players?
Sure. I'm not sure why this is a counterargument. If I say that you benefitted from DDB, then I point out that I benefit from it even more...how does that deprecate what you said? However, the Venn diagram there has a lot of overlap in my experience. People coming to DDB often have already bought physical stuff (usually the PHB), then heard about DDB and came here (hence the common complaint about not getting DDB for free). A lot of people who are new to the game on DDB are people who already have some physical stuff.
Why change to a different website or media when you already have stuff here?
I'd point out that you've already answered this in your closing paragraph. They're already deprecating part of our purchases in a few months +not complaining, simply observing). For me, the main books keeping me here are my purchases of the five core+expansion rulebooks - all five of which are slated to be deprecated. I have adventures too, but I'm not bound to this website for those. This is a very good time for me and many others to be reconsidering where I buy the next edition (or to just nope out, I guess), and they've just made it very much more expensive to continue with them...while not offering anything new of additional significant value to compensate (I play in an FLGS with no internet access...a VTT is useless to me even if I don't prefer minis...or had a Master Sub).
As a note, no, I really don't want "dndbeyond to burn". When the OGL "crisis" occurred, I was one of the most vociferous defenders of WotC, even to the point of having death threats sent against me - not because I felt WotC was perfect, but because what was being said against them was mostly BS and lies. That's not the case now, and so I'm speaking up in the hopes that WotC sees reason and backs off on this.
DDB and WotC have seemingly done their level best over the last year to drive me, but I'm speaking up because I want DDB to work for me. This is one of those shortsighted cash grabs that will give short term profit as people feel the immediate need to get content, but will cost them in the long run when the people that feature was tempting into ecosystem are no longer tempted.
thank you for the detailed response, much appreciated
1. since the person is "expanding their collection" it implies they already own something dnd related hence no longer a "new player" dipping their toe (atleast in my mind), which starts to come across as people meaning that piece-meal purchases are good for players to dip their toe into "new content".
2. was more to do with people buying content for others, which i assume they tend to play a game with, why spend a potential reoccurring cost of 4-8 dollars on a few pieces of content for someone else (multiplied by however many people your buying for) when you can share it for only $2 and buy the contents once - the new player gets to trial for free before purchasing at a later date if they want it for themselves - again just assumptions and speculation on my part due to never having a master subscription
3. i was wondering if it affects pre-existing players with physical copies more then the "new player" because of two reason (besides the ones previously mentioned) - a "new player" is less likely to buy piece-meal and cherry pick out classes, feats, races, etc compared to a pre-existing player due to having less knowledge of what those classes, feats, races, etc contain, they are essentially going in blind or otherwise have dipped their toe by gaining knowledge from elsewhere (whether being influenced by people, an idea or the free content available) - i personally dont count new players to dndbeyond as new players to dnd, the only valid reason (in my mind) for purchasing piece-meal is a financial reason, being new or not means very little to it overall
4. was more about why would someone make that move - they would still have to buy the content as a full book, at full price and will also have to purchase the content they own physically or even on dndbeyond again, it seems like a knee-jerk reaction thats more costly overall in the long run, which kinda takes away from the conversation from a financial perspective also with everything being updated with the new books (PHB, DMG, MM) which could contain everything players know and love or even wanted to purchase at piece-meal prices in one (well three) convenient places, could dndbeyond be instead trying to save people money by removing piece-meal for potentially soon to be legacy content rather then a money-grab??
im glad your not one of the ones that want to "see dndbeyond burn" and rather one of the people who fight for the game they love, i truly hope you continue to enjoy and love the game for many years to come.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone play more than one session without a PHB, and some don't even wait that long. It's a bit bonkers to me, because no one needs the rules at my table - I run the game in such a way that you just need player options that you use, the rules are easy enough to pick up as you go - but that's what people do. To me, someone with a PHB can still be just dipping their toes in. But whether you call them dipping their toes into the game, or just dipping their toes into the expanding the game... piecemeal purchases were still very useful.
The Master Sub is four bucks something a month. If you happen to have someone with the content you want and a Master Dub, it's great. If it's just you and that guy and he doesn't have a Master Sub? A campaign lasts around a year and a half or so, so that's around $80 for the sub and there's nothing to show at the end of it. Via piecemeal, you can get a decent character for 4 or 6 bucks. New race, new subclass plus a new item or spell. For the price of the Master Sub, you could get virtually everything you'd ever need as a player for any campaign and you get to use it for as long as DDB exists. Of course, bigger groups tip that balance...but different tools for different situations.
Ok fair enough.
I'm not sure of your logic here. Let's say I'm brand new to DDB. I want to play a Necromancer Wizard, but I'm not interested in anything else. In a few months (whether I realise it or not), it's going to be Legacy, because it's PHB. Previously I could spend $1.99 on the Necromancer and, if we consider Legacy content lost, then I'd lose $1.99. Now, they're forcing me to buy the $29.99 and would therefore lose $29.99...how is that saving me money? Also bear in mind that it's being removed for content that's definitely not being "Legacied" like MotM. As for those of us who already have content, see my response to Tia on page 7. It's not what's here right now. It's about the future. This is a very typical move of a company with a product entering a death spiral (whether it's a symptom or a cause is not something I'm knowledgeable enough on to comment on, but it's a definite association). It's not just this, but where the site is headed. If it keeps pushing away from my needs, then it's not going to be something I particularly want - but instead of a resource I've sunk maybe $150 into, it'll be something like $300 or whatever - when I could have used that $150 on what I'm actually want on that other media. Chucking good money after bad isn't good. The fact is, that it would be cheaper in the long run to fix this now and move than to continue on - assuming they don't change course. DDB was an attractive option because I didn't have to buy the entirety of MotM (for example) - most of which I don't have any use for really - just to play as a Kobold. There are disadvantages to DDB, and how things are, it would cost me nothing to switch to physical.
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yes i understand players come in a wide variety with differing experience levels and different needs however alot seem to be approaching this from the view of it being a negative for "new players" - if a "new player" never experiences buying piece-meal how are they affected by not being able to??
If someone doesn't know they're missing out on something then that automatically means they're not missing out on it?
to me it seems more like it affects "existing players" rather then "new players", hence why i asked those few questions to gain some insight (rather then a question without an answer)
Granted, it could affect one set of players more than another. But it's still affecting both sets of players.
my minds kinda comparing it to (and yes im aware people see things differently to others) a discount sale that ended then someone comes in the next day (or later) wanting something for the previously discounted price...
That's not what happened. How about comparing it to no longer being able to order the $6 starter you really enjoyed and being told you can now only order it as part of a $90 3-part course that includes the main you don't even like. It's irrelevant to me if that's how other restaurants do it, I came to this particular restaurant because I could order the starter separately.
For everyone complaining about needing to buy books again because you went physical first, the core class features are all free from basic rules, and you can use Homebrew to recreate any subclasses, spells, feats, etc. you already have physically so long as you keep that homebrew in your private collection rather than making it public. Is that notably less convenient than having it pre-built? Yes. That is what you're paying for when you buy the product on D&DB, the convenience of someone else having spent the time and effort to set up all these things so they integrate with the character sheet. And charging a monthly amount cheaper than a lot of fast food meals anymore in exchange for access to their creation tools and near unlimited storage is hardly an egregious ask. Again, this is a for-profit enterprise for a hobby, not a charity, and on top of that a website like this with all these integrated components does require continuous upkeep. The physical books and this site are two separate products; owning one does not create any obligation for WotC to provide you with the other gratis.
I mean… Yeah, all those things are true, but I think the primary argument in the context of this particular issue is that if you already have the physical copy of a book, going on DDB and paying for the pieces of it that you want instead of the whole thing felt more like a convenience fee than having no choice but to purchase the whole book digitally or find a workaround.
Sure, there are plenty of people who believe that if they bought the book physically, they are entitled to use it with the digital tools on DDB free of charge, but that’s another beast. Pretty sure one of the main sore spots is just that á la carte was a super convenient and user-friendly feature that helped to make DDB unique, and to have it spirited away in the dead of night with no explanation just feels gross.
That's not what happened. How about comparing it to no longer being able to order the $6 starter you really enjoyed and being told you can now only order it as part of a $90 3-part course that includes the main you don't even like. It's irrelevant to me if that's how other restaurants do it, I came to this particular restaurant because I could order the starter separately.
personally i wouldnt make the decision based of a starter (1 class or feat or species, etc), i would just order a meal that i might enjoy (in this case what ever themed book it may be), highly likely from the same restaurant (dndbeyond) and ill still enjoy my meal in full (dnd)
The piecemeal was like a taste that making me wanted more. Why do you think company give free samples away? You're trying to get more customers into your pool by giving taste of your product and they gradually spend more and more. If I have no intentions to buy your product now, how would you change my mind? Marketing? They may have all the reasons from their business prospective. From my view, as a customer, the product is less appealing to me as the cost for using now has changed a lot.
I have not read through the whole thread but curious if anyone knows what the “spin” is on this from Beyond? How it is good for us? LOL.
While there is no need to read the entire thread, I do recommend reading the posts by D&D Beyond’s Community Manager, LaTiaJacquise. There is a button on the thread which skips you to the staff posts - on desktop, it is at the top of the thread; on mobile, you have to turn the view to landscape, then can find it at the top of the thread. Once you find the first post, you can use the “next staff post” button to skip to the next official post on the subject. As far as I am aware, this represents the totality of the official responses on the subject (other than things like the announcement post on the homepage).
You might be surprised to see there has been a complete lack of “spin” in these responses. Beyond that, I will not try to characterize the posts and recommend you read them yourself so you can form your own opinion.
I have not read through the whole thread but curious if anyone knows what the “spin” is on this from Beyond? How it is good for us? LOL.
There isn't any spin that I've seen, which I'm grateful for. It's a business decision, one that isn't a question of ethics (at least, not fundamentally so). That doesn't mean it's a good decision, just it's not about righteousness v evil.
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Seems to me that it’s in prep for the 2024 PHB etc.
Cost of living is at an all time high, so why wouldn’t WOTC decide to up all their prices, throw things into crazy expensive bundles (like the spelljammer triple book) and then remove any option that means a customer spends less than $10. :/
Seems to me that it’s in prep for the 2024 PHB etc.
Cost of living is at an all time high, so why wouldn’t WOTC decide to up all their prices, throw things into crazy expensive bundles (like the spelljammer triple book) and then remove any option that means a customer spends less than $10. :/
The cost of living argument is not particularly relevant to a disposable income product. D&D is a hobby, not an essential. They’ve still released and are going to continue to release standalone books, and price-wise the books are still about the equivalent of 2 or 3 mid-price fast food/takeout meals and have been that way for years, so it’s not as though WotC specifically has been pumping up their prices.
I tend to buy physical books, and also the piecemeal character options I can share with my players. Definitely not moving away from my preference for hardcovers, and even more definitely not buying two full copies.
If I have to purchase the entire book, I will go back to purchasing things on Roll20 or other fully functional VTT. This was a huge mistake on the part of WoTC.
It's a strange thing for Hasbro/WotC to do. They want to tap into the whales, but as a high spender in the system this new cash grab is pushing me and my abused wallet into the arms of third party content creators more and more. I would love to buy more from the source, but I only will buy if it's actually useful content. Now I can't even get what I want from the useless content being shilled out en mass.
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Here's what turned me off right from the start.
I already spent nearly 100.00 on the books.
I have a disability that I think will be helped by using a digital system like this one to manage my character during our irl weekly game sessions.
Now, at first, I understood when I realized, "Oh, of course DNDB wants to sell me a book. Duh."
Then I learned that DnDB IS WOTC, which means they are getting my monthly subscription in perpetuity for as long as I am playing in their sandbox AND they want me to buy their books. Again, mind you.
That's a money grab.
I have only been playing for 6 months. I am housebound and 80% bedridden and this is basically my only contact with the outside world. Shame on the Wizards for rivaling pretty much anything found in the huge deck of Monster cards I just bought.
I am cancelling my script before my trial ends and going with a homebrew spreadsheet. Not nearly as "pretty" or user friendly, but hella "nicer".
So now I cannot now avoid Silvery Barbs or pick up a background or feat for a particular character I want to try out.
Hopefully, this feature is put back. Because its useful.
They get paid something, we get the thing we want: everybody wins.
If not, its yet another enshittification of a service that used to be good but is made deliberately worse on purpose to make money.
Anti-customer ethos at it's worst.
As I am brand new to the site, and had only built one free character before with no issues, I was pretty dismayed when I purchased a six month sub, started to put my existing hard-copy level 9 Tiefling Paladin I to the system only discover that I could NOT do so without BUYING a book. I own the dang book. I am looking at it right now. And I just paid for a script to the company the publishes said book. And if my character is on the site and I want to keep playing her, and create more, and keep using the tools, I will keep paying a monthly amount. For, like, EVER.
Making me buy the books again is pure greed.
For everyone complaining about needing to buy books again because you went physical first, the core class features are all free from basic rules, and you can use Homebrew to recreate any subclasses, spells, feats, etc. you already have physically so long as you keep that homebrew in your private collection rather than making it public. Is that notably less convenient than having it pre-built? Yes. That is what you're paying for when you buy the product on D&DB, the convenience of someone else having spent the time and effort to set up all these things so they integrate with the character sheet. And charging a monthly amount cheaper than a lot of fast food meals anymore in exchange for access to their creation tools and near unlimited storage is hardly an egregious ask. Again, this is a for-profit enterprise for a hobby, not a charity, and on top of that a website like this with all these integrated components does require continuous upkeep. The physical books and this site are two separate products; owning one does not create any obligation for WotC to provide you with the other gratis.
As with any new hobby, it is best to learn about the hobby first before spending a single penny. Especially with a niche hobby like D&D and TTRPGs, not many people would consider trying it, and even after they tried it, not many like it. Additionally, specifically in D&D's case (and TTRPGs in general), players often do not need to spend money because GMs often provide all, or at least most, of the resources. If money is an issue, I would return or sell the books you bought, and find games where the GM can provide the resources you need.
Beyond is not the only official digital toolset. Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, and Foundry are the three other official toolsets, and they are all fully mature VTT platforms. While Beyond does have its VTT, it is still in active development and nowhere near mature yet. See if those other platforms suit your needs better. However, be aware that if you want to use more than the free content, you will still have to pay regardless of the platform. Just as with any movie, videogame, music, or any other form of entertainment, you will have to buy content again if you switch to another medium or platform. D&D books are no exception. Just like you and me who got bills to pay and mouths to feed, Beyond's (and other company's) employees got bills to pay and mouths to feed too, not to mention all the maintaince and other expenses running a business incurs.
Sheets, Excel, or whatever program you use will defnitely work, but it will not be as automated nor convenient compared to dedicated digital character sheets. Spreadsheets are definitely more flexible, and potentially work even better, but if you want it to work as effortlessly as a dedicated digital character sheet, it is going to take quite a bit of work.
D&D is the leader in the TTRPG industry, and while that comes with many conveniences and quality of life improvements that other TTRPGs simply do not have, those things also cost money. But as mentioned before, generally speaking, GMs are the one footing the bill, so players do not have to pay for much if at all.
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I've answered the questions as best as I can interpret them:
As a note, no, I really don't want "dndbeyond to burn". When the OGL "crisis" occurred, I was one of the most vociferous defenders of WotC, even to the point of having death threats sent against me - not because I felt WotC was perfect, but because what was being said against them was mostly BS and lies. That's not the case now, and so I'm speaking up in the hopes that WotC sees reason and backs off on this.
DDB and WotC have seemingly done their level best over the last year to drive me, but I'm speaking up because I want DDB to work for me. This is one of those shortsighted cash grabs that will give short term profit as people feel the immediate need to get content, but will cost them in the long run when the people that feature was tempting into ecosystem are no longer tempted.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
thank you for the detailed response, much appreciated
1. since the person is "expanding their collection" it implies they already own something dnd related hence no longer a "new player" dipping their toe (atleast in my mind), which starts to come across as people meaning that piece-meal purchases are good for players to dip their toe into "new content".
2. was more to do with people buying content for others, which i assume they tend to play a game with, why spend a potential reoccurring cost of 4-8 dollars on a few pieces of content for someone else (multiplied by however many people your buying for) when you can share it for only $2 and buy the contents once - the new player gets to trial for free before purchasing at a later date if they want it for themselves - again just assumptions and speculation on my part due to never having a master subscription
3. i was wondering if it affects pre-existing players with physical copies more then the "new player" because of two reason (besides the ones previously mentioned)
- a "new player" is less likely to buy piece-meal and cherry pick out classes, feats, races, etc compared to a pre-existing player due to having less knowledge of what those classes, feats, races, etc contain, they are essentially going in blind or otherwise have dipped their toe by gaining knowledge from elsewhere (whether being influenced by people, an idea or the free content available)
- i personally dont count new players to dndbeyond as new players to dnd, the only valid reason (in my mind) for purchasing piece-meal is a financial reason, being new or not means very little to it overall
4. was more about why would someone make that move - they would still have to buy the content as a full book, at full price and will also have to purchase the content they own physically or even on dndbeyond again, it seems like a knee-jerk reaction thats more costly overall in the long run, which kinda takes away from the conversation from a financial perspective also with everything being updated with the new books (PHB, DMG, MM) which could contain everything players know and love or even wanted to purchase at piece-meal prices in one (well three) convenient places, could dndbeyond be instead trying to save people money by removing piece-meal for potentially soon to be legacy content rather then a money-grab??
im glad your not one of the ones that want to "see dndbeyond burn" and rather one of the people who fight for the game they love, i truly hope you continue to enjoy and love the game for many years to come.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have not read through the whole thread but curious if anyone knows what the “spin” is on this from Beyond? How it is good for us? LOL.
If someone doesn't know they're missing out on something then that automatically means they're not missing out on it?
Granted, it could affect one set of players more than another. But it's still affecting both sets of players.
That's not what happened. How about comparing it to no longer being able to order the $6 starter you really enjoyed and being told you can now only order it as part of a $90 3-part course that includes the main you don't even like. It's irrelevant to me if that's how other restaurants do it, I came to this particular restaurant because I could order the starter separately.
Free Content: [Basic Rules],
[Phandelver],[Frozen Sick],[Acquisitions Inc.],[Vecna Dossier],[Radiant Citadel], [Spelljammer],[Dragonlance], [Prisoner 13],[Minecraft],[Star Forge], [Baldur’s Gate], [Lightning Keep], [Stormwreck Isle], [Pinebrook], [Caverns of Tsojcanth], [The Lost Horn], [Elemental Evil].Free Dice: [Frostmaiden],
[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud], [Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].I mean… Yeah, all those things are true, but I think the primary argument in the context of this particular issue is that if you already have the physical copy of a book, going on DDB and paying for the pieces of it that you want instead of the whole thing felt more like a convenience fee than having no choice but to purchase the whole book digitally or find a workaround.
Sure, there are plenty of people who believe that if they bought the book physically, they are entitled to use it with the digital tools on DDB free of charge, but that’s another beast. Pretty sure one of the main sore spots is just that á la carte was a super convenient and user-friendly feature that helped to make DDB unique, and to have it spirited away in the dead of night with no explanation just feels gross.
kinda - more along the lines "you cant miss what you never had"
True
personally i wouldnt make the decision based of a starter (1 class or feat or species, etc), i would just order a meal that i might enjoy (in this case what ever themed book it may be), highly likely from the same restaurant (dndbeyond) and ill still enjoy my meal in full (dnd)
The piecemeal was like a taste that making me wanted more. Why do you think company give free samples away? You're trying to get more customers into your pool by giving taste of your product and they gradually spend more and more. If I have no intentions to buy your product now, how would you change my mind? Marketing? They may have all the reasons from their business prospective. From my view, as a customer, the product is less appealing to me as the cost for using now has changed a lot.
While there is no need to read the entire thread, I do recommend reading the posts by D&D Beyond’s Community Manager, LaTiaJacquise. There is a button on the thread which skips you to the staff posts - on desktop, it is at the top of the thread; on mobile, you have to turn the view to landscape, then can find it at the top of the thread. Once you find the first post, you can use the “next staff post” button to skip to the next official post on the subject. As far as I am aware, this represents the totality of the official responses on the subject (other than things like the announcement post on the homepage).
You might be surprised to see there has been a complete lack of “spin” in these responses. Beyond that, I will not try to characterize the posts and recommend you read them yourself so you can form your own opinion.
There isn't any spin that I've seen, which I'm grateful for. It's a business decision, one that isn't a question of ethics (at least, not fundamentally so). That doesn't mean it's a good decision, just it's not about righteousness v evil.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is such a shitty move.
Seems to me that it’s in prep for the 2024 PHB etc.
Cost of living is at an all time high, so why wouldn’t WOTC decide to up all their prices, throw things into crazy expensive bundles (like the spelljammer triple book) and then remove any option that means a customer spends less than $10. :/
The cost of living argument is not particularly relevant to a disposable income product. D&D is a hobby, not an essential. They’ve still released and are going to continue to release standalone books, and price-wise the books are still about the equivalent of 2 or 3 mid-price fast food/takeout meals and have been that way for years, so it’s not as though WotC specifically has been pumping up their prices.
I tend to buy physical books, and also the piecemeal character options I can share with my players. Definitely not moving away from my preference for hardcovers, and even more definitely not buying two full copies.
If I have to purchase the entire book, I will go back to purchasing things on Roll20 or other fully functional VTT. This was a huge mistake on the part of WoTC.
It's a strange thing for Hasbro/WotC to do. They want to tap into the whales, but as a high spender in the system this new cash grab is pushing me and my abused wallet into the arms of third party content creators more and more. I would love to buy more from the source, but I only will buy if it's actually useful content. Now I can't even get what I want from the useless content being shilled out en mass.