I mean, I know you like to spin everything as a “wizards is evil” conspiracy for reasons… but the reality? You are still asking them to spend resources on a system that has no long-term future.
Wizards has a choice - spend resources appeasing people who are going to find something else to complain about, or streamline the system so enabling legacy content (which is useful for other aspects of the builder) does not also render spell selection a nightmare of two copies of functionally equivalent spells and pre/post errata versions of the spells they fixed.
I’m glad they are choosing the option that doesn’t involve their wasting resources on a group of people who are never satisfied - and many of whom represent the worst parts of our community. If those folks want to turn their minor inconvenience into rage quitting… that’s fine - the new system will be easier for those who are moving on and the new players who will first be introduced to the game through the 2024 rules. No great loss if some folks who like being mad for whatever reason choose to leave rather than be slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.
With errata, the old content is gone - Wizards scrubs the old content from the system and replaces it with the new. Here, your old information stays - and you can easily recreate it into your game with a few clicks of a button. The effect is akin to errata - the new version controls - but, in another way, it is even less “theft” than errata would be. Really not sure why people would accept errata… but throw a hissy fit over something that is even less invasive to them
The reality is that this is a non-issue that you are trying to turn into an issue.
Its not just the spells its the core rules also . Errata is a correction within the ruleset for balance. Not changing spells to fit a new ruleset.
I’m glad they are choosing the option that doesn’t involve their wasting resources on a group of people who are never satisfied - and many of whom represent the worst parts of our community. If those folks want to turn their minor inconvenience into rage quitting… that’s fine - the new system will be easier for those who are moving on and the new players who will first be introduced to the game through the 2024 rules. No great loss if some folks who like being mad for whatever reason choose to leave rather than be slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.
I just want what we paid for. Its not a matter of never satisfied. If they had come out and said there is a toggle then no problem. But to change core things like this really messes with my players current campaign. I could have on boarded them over the course of time but now its literally either go back to pen and paper or switch in just a few weeks. Again its not just spells its a lot more than that.
I mean, I know you like to spin everything as a “wizards is evil” conspiracy for reasons… but the reality? You are still asking them to spend resources on a system that has no long-term future.
Wizards has a choice - spend resources appeasing people who are going to find something else to complain about, or streamline the system so enabling legacy content (which is useful for other aspects of the builder) does not also render spell selection a nightmare of two copies of functionally equivalent spells and pre/post errata versions of the spells they fixed.
I’m glad they are choosing the option that doesn’t involve their wasting resources on a group of people who are never satisfied - and many of whom represent the worst parts of our community. If those folks want to turn their minor inconvenience into rage quitting… that’s fine - the new system will be easier for those who are moving on and the new players who will first be introduced to the game through the 2024 rules. No great loss if some folks who like being mad for whatever reason choose to leave rather than be slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.
I do not "like to spin everything as a “wizards is evil”", I am pretty sure that statement is a rules violation would you kindly remove it? It is not "me" asking, there are literally 100's of posts from others on this site arguing the same points and asking for the same things I am about this same topic, so please edit your post to reflect that as well.
All people want is for wizbro to keep their word and let them play with what they have purchased not take it away to get the to buy something else that they can take away to get you to buy mre again and again. "For the greater good" rarely ever is. People in general do not "like" being mad, but they get mad when they are taken advantage of.
Wizards has a duty to give people what they paid for, this is a "problem" they have created and are completely capable of correcting, it is sloppy at best, and predatory at worst.
You contend that this is a non issue, but MANY disagree. Even people heavy into homebrewing are not happy with how this will break games. See full post HERE Relevant portion quoted below for convenience.
"As someone with an ongoing 5e campaign and 11 pages of homebrew that has hyperlinks to 2014 spells and such, I am beyond livid with the changes. DND Beyond's utility is in its ease of use to reference and link materials. I paid for a tool to run my 5e campaigns so that when I make a magic item with a spell attached, my players can hover over it and see the wall of text. All of those would be broken and I either have to go in and manually add all of the spell's info or remake it from scratch as HB. This is so disrespectful to the work I've already put in as a DM and outright contemptuous toward the money I have put in to make use of this tool."
I mean, I know you like to spin everything as a “wizards is evil” conspiracy for reasons… but the reality? You are still asking them to spend resources on a system that has no long-term future.
Wizards has a choice - spend resources appeasing people who are going to find something else to complain about, or streamline the system so enabling legacy content (which is useful for other aspects of the builder) does not also render spell selection a nightmare of two copies of functionally equivalent spells and pre/post errata versions of the spells they fixed.
I’m glad they are choosing the option that doesn’t involve their wasting resources on a group of people who are never satisfied - and many of whom represent the worst parts of our community. If those folks want to turn their minor inconvenience into rage quitting… that’s fine - the new system will be easier for those who are moving on and the new players who will first be introduced to the game through the 2024 rules. No great loss if some folks who like being mad for whatever reason choose to leave rather than be slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.
They aren't saving money.
Server space on a central repository of legacy 2014 items is cheaper than every campaign homebrewing a hundred items. Nobody is asking them to continue updating the 2014 stuff, just leave it alone.
If a single customer unsubs or declines buying 2024 books out of fear they've lost money.
But if it's super great that people are leaving as you claim, why are you here arguing with them?
I hope a dev/mod/whatever reads this. While I fully understand the desire to sell stuff, I have several running campaigns that largely rely on ddb. Those campaigns will likely run for a few more years before we consider a rules set change. If they break the character builder and 2014 stat blocks we rely on, we'll just have to figure out a way to play without ddb and they'll lose subscriptions.
For the stuff you're losing access to, like spells and items whose functionality is being overwritten - can you explain how that is any different than errata? Is the expectation that WotC should maintain the historical versions for every single rules element they change? That's just not a sustainable approach for a site like this. They already gave you the tools you need to revert to old versions of things for your table in the form of the homebrew process.
And before you argue "errata is usually free!" - the new rules will be free too, you just have to wait longer for the SRD to be updated. But presumably, the stuff you own that is getting updated, like the Conjure Animals spell, will also be updated for free. For the rest, you can think of the current period as Early Access, and simply choose not to pay for any of it until Basic.
For the stuff you're losing access to, like spells and items whose functionality is being overwritten - can you explain how that is any different than errata? Is the expectation that WotC should maintain the historical versions for every single rules element they change? That's just not a sustainable approach for a site like this. They already gave you the tools you need to revert to old versions of things for your table in the form of the homebrew process.
And before you argue "errata is usually free!" - the new rules will be free too, you just have to wait longer for the SRD to be updated. But presumably, the stuff you own that is getting updated, like the Conjure Animals spell, will also be updated for free. For the rest, you can think of the current period as Early Access, and simply choose not to pay for any of it until Basic.
Yep Homebrew 200+ items and spells. WoTC is giving us the tools! Hurray! Get real my guy. Thats like saying "We took all your tools, now we are giving you a new workspace to rebuild those same tools we just took."
It is because they said they would maintain support of 2014 material. Now they are saying we have to homebrew it. It is them talking out of both sides of their mouth.
It is continued micro betrayals.
And are you seriously saying that they couldnt design the site to function with backwards editions? They could. How does Demiplane do it, with multiple systems, across multiple editions.
For the stuff you're losing access to, like spells and items whose functionality is being overwritten - can you explain how that is any different than errata? Is the expectation that WotC should maintain the historical versions for every single rules element they change? That's just not a sustainable approach for a site like this. They already gave you the tools you need to revert to old versions of things for your table in the form of the homebrew process.
And before you argue "errata is usually free!" - the new rules will be free too, you just have to wait longer for the SRD to be updated. But presumably, the stuff you own that is getting updated, like the Conjure Animals spell, will also be updated for free. For the rest, you can think of the current period as Early Access, and simply choose not to pay for any of it until Basic.
Spell changes within a rule set is perfectly fine. Spell changes in service of a new rule set is not. Its not just spells the entire sheet will link to new rules. So those who are using it currently for play. Now have the problem of the character sheets being wrong for the 2014 ruleset. So its a situation of either leave beyond or switch to new set. Everyone is kinda burying the lead on the ruleset change and focusing just on spells.
What especially gets my goat is that for Archives of Nethys (Pf2e) the recent update was handled in the same way, with legacy selections, but managed to keep everything (spells, items, backgrounds and other rules (exhaustion etc.).
For free.
I’m currently running two campaigns with content sharing on, and several players including myself are ND.
It sounds like it’s going to be a nightmare selecting legacy content and having new rules for exhaustion etc. on the character sheet, and as DM I see these tools as to make things easier, not more difficult.
If it is as botched as I think it’s going to be, I’ll be canceling my Master Tier subscription once it’s live. I hate this update and really don’t want to be bothered trying to resolve this mess.
I’m already a Pf2e convert and after 40 years playing D&D it’ll most likely be the last after these campaigns.
Good luck with newer players, until you force them away with MtG style marketing and tie-ins for $
It is gone from the creation tools and that is the only reason to buy anything on DDB. So it is effectively gone. Without the character creation tools there is no DDB.
If you want your old version of the very few spells that are being substantively changed, you can get them in the creation tools through homebrew. You are basically asking Wizards to waste their time and effort on appealing to people who can easily solve their own problem.
Wotc could have also just copied those spells and items getting complete makeovers and renamed then with "Legacy" tacked onto the front.
It would have added a whole 20-30 spells at most, but left them clearly tagged.
Errata is completely different. If only 2024 rules are available in the builder, current characters in current campaigns will not function properly and will not be able to level up using dndbeyond. The base classes are different. The progression schedule is different. Many of the features are different. All this is pure speculation at this point, based on a press release, but hopefully they will add something akin to the Tasha's options in the builder so you can continue using your now "legacy" content.
Wotc could have also just copied those spells and items getting complete makeovers and renamed then with "Legacy" tacked onto the front.
It would have added a whole 20-30 spells at most, but left them clearly tagged.
It's pure laziness on their part.
Also, if they made those copies of spells & items that are being changed for us and simply tagged them [legacy], it'd also save their database from becoming flooded by the countless duplicates that we're all now going to make.
I’m glad they are choosing the option that doesn’t involve their wasting resources on a group of people who are never satisfied - and many of whom represent the worst parts of our community. If those folks want to turn their minor inconvenience into rage quitting… that’s fine - the new system will be easier for those who are moving on and the new players who will first be introduced to the game through the 2024 rules. No great loss if some folks who like being mad for whatever reason choose to leave rather than be slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.
Mate I don't know about all this 'worst parts of our community' nonsense, I'm just looking at this and thinking "this is going to create delays at my table".
It's extra weird because any halfway competent DBA would look at this and take all of fifteen seconds to solve it.
Yep Homebrew 200+ items and spells. WoTC is giving us the tools! Hurray! Get real my guy. Thats like saying "We took all your tools, now we are giving you a new workspace to rebuild those same tools we just took."
1) What the heck kind of campaign are you running that uses 200+ magic items and spells? Why wouldn't you stick to homebrewing just the few updated things you need, instead of trying to recreate/revert the entire 2014 book?
2) Even if your campaigns really do run that many spells and items, you don't need to homebrew them all on the sheet - the homebrew option is there to make calculating attack rolls and damage rolls easy, but a great many spells and items don't affect either of those things. If you cast the old Friends for example, you can just pull up the 2014 PHB/Basic and read to your DM what it says, no homebrew needed.
3) I am real. Should they have maintained support for their 4e character builder too because there are some angry people out there who happened to like it? Errata is errata and new versions are new versions.
Errata is completely different. If only 2024 rules are available in the builder, current characters in current campaigns will not function properly and will not be able to level up using dndbeyond. The base classes are different. The progression schedule is different. Many of the features are different. All this is pure speculation at this point, based on a press release, but hopefully they will add something akin to the Tasha's options in the builder so you can continue using your now "legacy" content.
2014 Classes will still be available in the character builder, they even provide examples and screenshots showing how that will work. The only things that you'll need to pull up the old books for are old spells, old rules (e.g. 2014 Exhaustion) and old magic items.
For the stuff you're losing access to, like spells and items whose functionality is being overwritten - can you explain how that is any different than errata? Is the expectation that WotC should maintain the historical versions for every single rules element they change? That's just not a sustainable approach for a site like this. They already gave you the tools you need to revert to old versions of things for your table in the form of the homebrew process.
And before you argue "errata is usually free!" - the new rules will be free too, you just have to wait longer for the SRD to be updated. But presumably, the stuff you own that is getting updated, like the Conjure Animals spell, will also be updated for free. For the rest, you can think of the current period as Early Access, and simply choose not to pay for any of it until Basic.
Spell changes within a rule set is perfectly fine. Spell changes in service of a new rule set is not. Its not just spells the entire sheet will link to new rules. So those who are using it currently for play. Now have the problem of the character sheets being wrong for the 2014 ruleset. So its a situation of either leave beyond or switch to new set. Everyone is kinda burying the lead on the ruleset change and focusing just on spells.
The ruleset is the same though. This entire update is just content changes within an existing ruleset. So by your own standards, this is totally fine. The lede you're saying people are burying does not exist. You made it up.
The lede you're saying people are burying does not exist. You made it up.
That's just objectively untrue. They posted this
"
Updating Tooltips and Game Materials in the Toolset
With the rules revision, we are updating game materials in the toolset and in tooltips to be in line with the 2024 Core Rulebooks. This change impacts the information you’ll find on your character sheet, in tooltips, and that is linked in the compendium.
I mean, I know you like to spin everything as a “wizards is evil” conspiracy for reasons… but the reality? You are still asking them to spend resources on a system that has no long-term future.
Wizards has a choice - spend resources appeasing people who are going to find something else to complain about, or streamline the system so enabling legacy content (which is useful for other aspects of the builder) does not also render spell selection a nightmare of two copies of functionally equivalent spells and pre/post errata versions of the spells they fixed.
I’m glad they are choosing the option that doesn’t involve their wasting resources on a group of people who are never satisfied - and many of whom represent the worst parts of our community. If those folks want to turn their minor inconvenience into rage quitting… that’s fine - the new system will be easier for those who are moving on and the new players who will first be introduced to the game through the 2024 rules. No great loss if some folks who like being mad for whatever reason choose to leave rather than be slightly inconvenienced for the greater good.
Its not just the spells its the core rules also . Errata is a correction within the ruleset for balance. Not changing spells to fit a new ruleset.
"
The following rules will be updated:
Why would I pay more to retain access to things I already paid for and have been paying a subscription to fully use for several years?
I bought the legendary bundle in 2020 and have purchased basically everything since then and I've had a Master Tier subscription that entire time.
All this 'remove and replace' has done is convince me to finally cancel the subscription and never buy another digital item from wizards again.
I just want what we paid for. Its not a matter of never satisfied. If they had come out and said there is a toggle then no problem. But to change core things like this really messes with my players current campaign. I could have on boarded them over the course of time but now its literally either go back to pen and paper or switch in just a few weeks. Again its not just spells its a lot more than that.
I do not "like to spin everything as a “wizards is evil”", I am pretty sure that statement is a rules violation would you kindly remove it? It is not "me" asking, there are literally 100's of posts from others on this site arguing the same points and asking for the same things I am about this same topic, so please edit your post to reflect that as well.
All people want is for wizbro to keep their word and let them play with what they have purchased not take it away to get the to buy something else that they can take away to get you to buy mre again and again. "For the greater good" rarely ever is. People in general do not "like" being mad, but they get mad when they are taken advantage of.
Wizards has a duty to give people what they paid for, this is a "problem" they have created and are completely capable of correcting, it is sloppy at best, and predatory at worst.
You contend that this is a non issue, but MANY disagree. Even people heavy into homebrewing are not happy with how this will break games. See full post HERE Relevant portion quoted below for convenience.
"As someone with an ongoing 5e campaign and 11 pages of homebrew that has hyperlinks to 2014 spells and such, I am beyond livid with the changes. DND Beyond's utility is in its ease of use to reference and link materials. I paid for a tool to run my 5e campaigns so that when I make a magic item with a spell attached, my players can hover over it and see the wall of text. All of those would be broken and I either have to go in and manually add all of the spell's info or remake it from scratch as HB. This is so disrespectful to the work I've already put in as a DM and outright contemptuous toward the money I have put in to make use of this tool."
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
They aren't saving money.
Server space on a central repository of legacy 2014 items is cheaper than every campaign homebrewing a hundred items. Nobody is asking them to continue updating the 2014 stuff, just leave it alone.
If a single customer unsubs or declines buying 2024 books out of fear they've lost money.
But if it's super great that people are leaving as you claim, why are you here arguing with them?
Because Robots.
I hope a dev/mod/whatever reads this. While I fully understand the desire to sell stuff, I have several running campaigns that largely rely on ddb. Those campaigns will likely run for a few more years before we consider a rules set change. If they break the character builder and 2014 stat blocks we rely on, we'll just have to figure out a way to play without ddb and they'll lose subscriptions.
For the stuff you're losing access to, like spells and items whose functionality is being overwritten - can you explain how that is any different than errata? Is the expectation that WotC should maintain the historical versions for every single rules element they change? That's just not a sustainable approach for a site like this. They already gave you the tools you need to revert to old versions of things for your table in the form of the homebrew process.
And before you argue "errata is usually free!" - the new rules will be free too, you just have to wait longer for the SRD to be updated. But presumably, the stuff you own that is getting updated, like the Conjure Animals spell, will also be updated for free. For the rest, you can think of the current period as Early Access, and simply choose not to pay for any of it until Basic.
They continue to keep doing things that seem to go against what they claimed they would allow/do.
And even if they backtrack, again like the OGL, I dont trust them to not do something similar again.
It is clear they have a vision and want to remove 5e material and push 5.5 in its place. Which, granted, that makes sense as a business. I get it.
But had they said that from the go, it would be different. It is the going back on what they infer that I take issue with.
I will be switching to Nexus / Demiplane and Daggerheart going forward. And who knows maybe even just start using 3.5 again!
Yep Homebrew 200+ items and spells. WoTC is giving us the tools! Hurray! Get real my guy. Thats like saying "We took all your tools, now we are giving you a new workspace to rebuild those same tools we just took."
It is because they said they would maintain support of 2014 material. Now they are saying we have to homebrew it. It is them talking out of both sides of their mouth.
It is continued micro betrayals.
And are you seriously saying that they couldnt design the site to function with backwards editions? They could. How does Demiplane do it, with multiple systems, across multiple editions.
Spell changes within a rule set is perfectly fine. Spell changes in service of a new rule set is not. Its not just spells the entire sheet will link to new rules. So those who are using it currently for play. Now have the problem of the character sheets being wrong for the 2014 ruleset. So its a situation of either leave beyond or switch to new set. Everyone is kinda burying the lead on the ruleset change and focusing just on spells.
^ This.
What especially gets my goat is that for Archives of Nethys (Pf2e) the recent update was handled in the same way, with legacy selections, but managed to keep everything (spells, items, backgrounds and other rules (exhaustion etc.).
For free.
I’m currently running two campaigns with content sharing on, and several players including myself are ND.
It sounds like it’s going to be a nightmare selecting legacy content and having new rules for exhaustion etc. on the character sheet, and as DM I see these tools as to make things easier, not more difficult.
If it is as botched as I think it’s going to be, I’ll be canceling my Master Tier subscription once it’s live. I hate this update and really don’t want to be bothered trying to resolve this mess.
I’m already a Pf2e convert and after 40 years playing D&D it’ll most likely be the last after these campaigns.
Good luck with newer players, until you force them away with MtG style marketing and tie-ins for $
Wotc could have also just copied those spells and items getting complete makeovers and renamed then with "Legacy" tacked onto the front.
It would have added a whole 20-30 spells at most, but left them clearly tagged.
It's pure laziness on their part.
Errata is completely different. If only 2024 rules are available in the builder, current characters in current campaigns will not function properly and will not be able to level up using dndbeyond. The base classes are different. The progression schedule is different. Many of the features are different. All this is pure speculation at this point, based on a press release, but hopefully they will add something akin to the Tasha's options in the builder so you can continue using your now "legacy" content.
Also, if they made those copies of spells & items that are being changed for us and simply tagged them [legacy], it'd also save their database from becoming flooded by the countless duplicates that we're all now going to make.
Mate I don't know about all this 'worst parts of our community' nonsense, I'm just looking at this and thinking "this is going to create delays at my table".
It's extra weird because any halfway competent DBA would look at this and take all of fifteen seconds to solve it.
1) What the heck kind of campaign are you running that uses 200+ magic items and spells? Why wouldn't you stick to homebrewing just the few updated things you need, instead of trying to recreate/revert the entire 2014 book?
2) Even if your campaigns really do run that many spells and items, you don't need to homebrew them all on the sheet - the homebrew option is there to make calculating attack rolls and damage rolls easy, but a great many spells and items don't affect either of those things. If you cast the old Friends for example, you can just pull up the 2014 PHB/Basic and read to your DM what it says, no homebrew needed.
3) I am real. Should they have maintained support for their 4e character builder too because there are some angry people out there who happened to like it? Errata is errata and new versions are new versions.
2014 Classes will still be available in the character builder, they even provide examples and screenshots showing how that will work. The only things that you'll need to pull up the old books for are old spells, old rules (e.g. 2014 Exhaustion) and old magic items.
The ruleset is the same though. This entire update is just content changes within an existing ruleset. So by your own standards, this is totally fine. The lede you're saying people are burying does not exist. You made it up.
That's just objectively untrue. They posted this
"
Updating Tooltips and Game Materials in the Toolset
With the rules revision, we are updating game materials in the toolset and in tooltips to be in line with the 2024 Core Rulebooks. This change impacts the information you’ll find on your character sheet, in tooltips, and that is linked in the compendium.
The following rules will be updated: