RAW, No Dual Wielding 2 non-light weapons when you take the Dual Weilder feat? Why? Mechanically the best non-twohanded weapon is a d8 damage. Is the potential extra 1 or 2 non-reliable extra damage points that unbalancing? Monks can already do d8 damage dual wielding with light weapons automatically at 5th level. Am I missing something? Dude, All I wanted was to dual wield long swords or dual wield whips...
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
RAW, No Dual Wielding 2 non-light weapons when you take the Dual Weilder feat? Why? Mechanically the best non-twohanded weapon is a d8 damage. Is the potential extra 1 or 2 non-reliable extra damage points that unbalancing? Monks can already do d8 damage dual wielding with light weapons automatically at 5th level. Am I missing something? Dude, All I wanted was to dual wield long swords or dual wield whips...
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
You aren't missing anything, the Dual Wielder feat is used with a Light weapon by design only Devs know why.
I don't think it would have been unbalancing to allow non-Twohanded weapon altogheter.
If you access to fewer Mastery, fighting with two Nick weapon can allow up to 3 attacks and up to 4 withExtra Attack.
The way I see it is that any weapons that are not specified as "Light" weapons are going to be tough to handle with the amount of precision required to be efficient with them while dual wielding.
What I mean is that a heavier weapon on its own takes a certain level of strength and dexterity combined to wield effectively in battle already. Now try that same level of precision with two and suddenly it's much more awkward and complicated. I'm not saying it's impossible, but only that in order to do it in a way that you can contribute in battle is going to require practice and training.
That's just how I justify it at my own table. Your mileage may vary.
If you access to fewer Mastery, fighting with two Nick weapon can allow up to 3 attacks and up to 4 withExtra Attack.
I'm not clear on what you are trying to say here. Regular dual wielding with two light weapons with the weapon mastery Nick property (assuming that you have weapon mastery with those weapons) will still only grant you a total of 2 attacks. The only thing Nick does is free up your bonus action. Attacking with two weapons that have the Nick weapon mastery property is redundant, just as fighting with two weapons that have Slow or Sap properties is redundant.
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
Well, I play a little differently at my table. When the adventuring party looks like they're in over their heads they run from the fight. We don't just stand there and take it.
So any advantage I can give my entire party over the enemy is a plus. So let's say we're in the heat of battle and we're thinking it's best to run away and live to fight another day. Cool. I'm using a weapon with the slow property to give the monster I'm fighting the disadvantage of only being able to move 10 feet. This gives me a huge head start on my get away (My current character, if I use the Dash action can run 60 feet away).
I'm allowing myself an out. The other people in the party have other tricks up their sleeves and when we all act together this gives us all a clear path to freedom.
But that's just one way it's useful. There are many other ways that the Slow property can be useful.
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
Well, I play a little differently at my table. When the adventuring party looks like they're in over their heads they run from the fight. We don't just stand there and take it.
So any advantage I can give my entire party over the enemy is a plus. So let's say we're in the heat of battle and we're thinking it's best to run away and live to fight another day. Cool. I'm using a weapon with the slow property to give the monster I'm fighting the disadvantage of only being able to move 10 feet. This gives me a huge head start on my get away (My current character, if I use the Dash action can run 60 feet away).
I'm allowing myself an out. The other people in the party have other tricks up their sleeves and when we all act together this gives us all a clear path to freedom.
But that's just one way it's useful. There are many other ways that the Slow property can be useful.
I may be wrong, but I think the question was more "why would you wield TWO weapons that have the same property since they don't stack?"
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
Well, I play a little differently at my table. When the adventuring party looks like they're in over their heads they run from the fight. We don't just stand there and take it.
So any advantage I can give my entire party over the enemy is a plus. So let's say we're in the heat of battle and we're thinking it's best to run away and live to fight another day. Cool. I'm using a weapon with the slow property to give the monster I'm fighting the disadvantage of only being able to move 10 feet. This gives me a huge head start on my get away (My current character, if I use the Dash action can run 60 feet away).
I'm allowing myself an out. The other people in the party have other tricks up their sleeves and when we all act together this gives us all a clear path to freedom.
But that's just one way it's useful. There are many other ways that the Slow property can be useful.
I may be wrong, but I think the question was more "why would you wield TWO weapons that have the same property since they don't stack?"
Because you want the advantage of the Slow property.
RAW, No Dual Wielding 2 non-light weapons when you take the Dual Weilder feat? Why? Mechanically the best non-twohanded weapon is a d8 damage. Is the potential extra 1 or 2 non-reliable extra damage points that unbalancing? Monks can already do d8 damage dual wielding with light weapons automatically at 5th level. Am I missing something? Dude, All I wanted was to dual wield long swords or dual wield whips...
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
You aren't missing anything, the Dual Wielder feat is used with a Light weapon by design only Devs know why.
I don't think it would have been unbalancing to allow non-Twohanded weapon altogheter.
If you access to fewer Mastery, fighting with two Nick weapon can allow up to 3 attacks and up to 4 withExtra Attack.
It is because there is no off hand attack in the game. And you don't have a bonus action unless something gives you a bonus action. Thus, making a bonus action attack is a function of the light property.
According to the rules as written (RAW), you can only dual wield light weapons without the Dual Wielder feat. The feat allows you to use non-light weapons, but it doesn't change the fundamental mechanics of dual wielding. This limitation is likely in place to balance the action economy and damage output.
If you access to fewer Mastery, fighting with two Nick weapon can allow up to 3 attacks and up to 4 withExtra Attack.
I'm not clear on what you are trying to say here. Regular dual wielding with two light weapons with the weapon mastery Nick property (assuming that you have weapon mastery with those weapons) will still only grant you a total of 2 attacks. The only thing Nick does is free up your bonus action. Attacking with two weapons that have the Nick weapon mastery property is redundant, just as fighting with two weapons that have Slow or Sap properties is redundant.
1 more extra attack not redundant. Nick Mastery moves the extra attack of the Light property so that you make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, freeing up your Bonus Action to make another extra attack with the Dual Wielder feat.
1 Attack (Action action)
1 Attack (Nick Mastery)
1 Attack (Dual Wielder)
In order to make this combo, one weapon must have the Light Property and a different one the Nick Mastery. I believe an ideal combo for melee is using Shortsword/Scimitar to make better use of Light, Vex & Nick but if you're a dagger thrower for example, then using only Nick weapon can also make sense.
According to the rules as written (RAW), you can only dual wield light weapons without the Dual Wielder feat. The feat allows you to use non-light weapons, but it doesn't change the fundamental mechanics of dual wielding. This limitation is likely in place to balance the action economy and damage output.
According to the rules as written (RAW), you can only dual wield light weapons without the Dual Wielder feat. The feat allows you to use non-light weapons, but it doesn't change the fundamental mechanics of dual wielding. This limitation is likely in place to balance the action economy and damage output.
The feat states that "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property".
To me this means that the first attack made, has to be made with a weapon that has the Light property.
I read it as the first attack must be with a light weapon but the only restriction on the second bonus action attack is no two handed. So you can attack with a dagger and follow up with a longsword but it has to be that order and two longswords are out the question
This limitation is likely in place to balance the action economy and damage output.
They didn't balance it very well imo. Nick and Dual Wielder are enough to keep TWF competitive with other fighting styles if you have access to Hunter's Mark, but it still doesn't scale well with Action Surge, Haste, Magic/Elemental Weapon or Two Extra Attacks. That's especially true now that Great Weapon Master lets you add your Proficiency Bonus to Attack action damage rolls with heavy weapons (including ranged weapons like longbows!) Someone using a Halberd with both GWM and Polearm Master gets to make a reaction attack when an enemy approaches (which can Cleave an adjacent enemy), another Cleave off of their Attack action during their own turn, a bonus action from either Polearm Master or GWM (depending on crits), and all of their Attack action hits are getting +3 or +4 from their PB. And they're doing all that while having reach, and they get to use buffs like Elemental Weapon which would only affect one of the two weapons in a TWF build.
Well, you actually can wield 2 longswords... there's just no benefit from doing it, you cant use a bonus action to attack with the other sword on the same turn... You need to have extra attack and use 1 sword for each attack.
Light weapons give you the benefit to attack using a bonus action with your off-hand weapon. a Nick weapon makes that part of the first attack. And dual wielder expands the type of weapon you can use in your off-hand.
RAW, No Dual Wielding 2 non-light weapons when you take the Dual Weilder feat? Why? Mechanically the best non-twohanded weapon is a d8 damage. Is the potential extra 1 or 2 non-reliable extra damage points that unbalancing? Monks can already do d8 damage dual wielding with light weapons automatically at 5th level. Am I missing something? Dude, All I wanted was to dual wield long swords or dual wield whips...
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
Well... lets check a few things.
Dual Wielder
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Humm, new feat seems to include these words " Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
So you attack with a light weapon then attack with one without the two-hand property.
For some devils artful reason you don't like "Slow, Sap or Nick" but we can use Vex, I recommend Vex for the d6 weapon honestly...
I agree that dual-wielding long swords or battle axes is an iconic aesthetic that will be missed, RAW. Then again, I still want my orc barbarian to dual-wield greataxes at level 16!
After thinking about it some more, I think this boils down to the game designers wanting to limit the Weapon Mastery options available to dual wielders (much like they've limited Graze and Cleave to Heavy melee weapons.)
As gothicshark pointed out, Light weapons only get Slow, Nick or Vex. If they allowed double non-Light weapons with Dual Wielder, you could go all in with Topple, Sap, and/or Push attacks and use your bonus action for that too. As long as one of the weapons has to be Light, you can only break even; you give up an opportunity to use Topple, Sap or Push when you attack with the Light weapon.
RAW, No Dual Wielding 2 non-light weapons when you take the Dual Weilder feat? Why? Mechanically the best non-twohanded weapon is a d8 damage. Is the potential extra 1 or 2 non-reliable extra damage points that unbalancing? Monks can already do d8 damage dual wielding with light weapons automatically at 5th level. Am I missing something? Dude, All I wanted was to dual wield long swords or dual wield whips...
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
Cause you can do it while holding a shield now? :D
Well, you actually can wield 2 longswords... there's just no benefit from doing it, you cant use a bonus action to attack with the other sword on the same turn... You need to have extra attack and use 1 sword for each attack.
Light weapons give you the benefit to attack using a bonus action with your off-hand weapon. a Nick weapon makes that part of the first attack. And dual wielder expands the type of weapon you can use in your off-hand.
Very well put. thank you!
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RAW, No Dual Wielding 2 non-light weapons when you take the Dual Weilder feat? Why? Mechanically the best non-twohanded weapon is a d8 damage. Is the potential extra 1 or 2 non-reliable extra damage points that unbalancing? Monks can already do d8 damage dual wielding with light weapons automatically at 5th level. Am I missing something? Dude, All I wanted was to dual wield long swords or dual wield whips...
And while we're at it. Why would I ever dual wield two weapons that had the Slow, Sap or Nick property?
You aren't missing anything, the Dual Wielder feat is used with a Light weapon by design only Devs know why.
I don't think it would have been unbalancing to allow non-Twohanded weapon altogheter.
If you access to fewer Mastery, fighting with two Nick weapon can allow up to 3 attacks and up to 4 withExtra Attack.
The way I see it is that any weapons that are not specified as "Light" weapons are going to be tough to handle with the amount of precision required to be efficient with them while dual wielding.
What I mean is that a heavier weapon on its own takes a certain level of strength and dexterity combined to wield effectively in battle already. Now try that same level of precision with two and suddenly it's much more awkward and complicated. I'm not saying it's impossible, but only that in order to do it in a way that you can contribute in battle is going to require practice and training.
That's just how I justify it at my own table. Your mileage may vary.
I'm not clear on what you are trying to say here. Regular dual wielding with two light weapons with the weapon mastery Nick property (assuming that you have weapon mastery with those weapons) will still only grant you a total of 2 attacks. The only thing Nick does is free up your bonus action. Attacking with two weapons that have the Nick weapon mastery property is redundant, just as fighting with two weapons that have Slow or Sap properties is redundant.
Well, I play a little differently at my table. When the adventuring party looks like they're in over their heads they run from the fight. We don't just stand there and take it.
So any advantage I can give my entire party over the enemy is a plus. So let's say we're in the heat of battle and we're thinking it's best to run away and live to fight another day. Cool. I'm using a weapon with the slow property to give the monster I'm fighting the disadvantage of only being able to move 10 feet. This gives me a huge head start on my get away (My current character, if I use the Dash action can run 60 feet away).
I'm allowing myself an out. The other people in the party have other tricks up their sleeves and when we all act together this gives us all a clear path to freedom.
But that's just one way it's useful. There are many other ways that the Slow property can be useful.
I may be wrong, but I think the question was more "why would you wield TWO weapons that have the same property since they don't stack?"
Because you want the advantage of the Slow property.
It is because there is no off hand attack in the game. And you don't have a bonus action unless something gives you a bonus action. Thus, making a bonus action attack is a function of the light property.
According to the rules as written (RAW), you can only dual wield light weapons without the Dual Wielder feat. The feat allows you to use non-light weapons, but it doesn't change the fundamental mechanics of dual wielding. This limitation is likely in place to balance the action economy and damage output.
five nights at freddy's
1 more extra attack not redundant. Nick Mastery moves the extra attack of the Light property so that you make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, freeing up your Bonus Action to make another extra attack with the Dual Wielder feat.
1 Attack (Action action)
1 Attack (Nick Mastery)
1 Attack (Dual Wielder)
In order to make this combo, one weapon must have the Light Property and a different one the Nick Mastery. I believe an ideal combo for melee is using Shortsword/Scimitar to make better use of Light, Vex & Nick but if you're a dagger thrower for example, then using only Nick weapon can also make sense.
I read the new 2024 Dual Wielder Feat differently...
The feat states that "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property".
To me this means that the first attack made, has to be made with a weapon that has the Light property.
I read it as the first attack must be with a light weapon but the only restriction on the second bonus action attack is no two handed. So you can attack with a dagger and follow up with a longsword but it has to be that order and two longswords are out the question
They didn't balance it very well imo. Nick and Dual Wielder are enough to keep TWF competitive with other fighting styles if you have access to Hunter's Mark, but it still doesn't scale well with Action Surge, Haste, Magic/Elemental Weapon or Two Extra Attacks. That's especially true now that Great Weapon Master lets you add your Proficiency Bonus to Attack action damage rolls with heavy weapons (including ranged weapons like longbows!) Someone using a Halberd with both GWM and Polearm Master gets to make a reaction attack when an enemy approaches (which can Cleave an adjacent enemy), another Cleave off of their Attack action during their own turn, a bonus action from either Polearm Master or GWM (depending on crits), and all of their Attack action hits are getting +3 or +4 from their PB. And they're doing all that while having reach, and they get to use buffs like Elemental Weapon which would only affect one of the two weapons in a TWF build.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Well, you actually can wield 2 longswords... there's just no benefit from doing it, you cant use a bonus action to attack with the other sword on the same turn... You need to have extra attack and use 1 sword for each attack.
Light weapons give you the benefit to attack using a bonus action with your off-hand weapon. a Nick weapon makes that part of the first attack. And dual wielder expands the type of weapon you can use in your off-hand.
Misses happen.
Well... lets check a few things.
Humm, new feat seems to include these words " Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."
So you attack with a light weapon then attack with one without the two-hand property.
For some devils artful reason you don't like "Slow, Sap or Nick" but we can use Vex, I recommend Vex for the d6 weapon honestly...
So two good weapons. Now your d8 one handed weapon has advantage.
Which is a good weapon for this....
But you can use a whip
All good so far.
Me however I would go
Vex, Nick, Vex, Nick in my weapon attack order. Vex for the Advantage, Nick for a bonus attack.
Really good for a fighter 3/Rogue 17. Short Sword then Dagger (use sneak), extra attack shortsword.
good nicks
an
I agree that dual-wielding long swords or battle axes is an iconic aesthetic that will be missed, RAW. Then again, I still want my orc barbarian to dual-wield greataxes at level 16!
After thinking about it some more, I think this boils down to the game designers wanting to limit the Weapon Mastery options available to dual wielders (much like they've limited Graze and Cleave to Heavy melee weapons.)
As gothicshark pointed out, Light weapons only get Slow, Nick or Vex. If they allowed double non-Light weapons with Dual Wielder, you could go all in with Topple, Sap, and/or Push attacks and use your bonus action for that too. As long as one of the weapons has to be Light, you can only break even; you give up an opportunity to use Topple, Sap or Push when you attack with the Light weapon.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Cause you can do it while holding a shield now? :D
Very well put. thank you!