2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities. 2024 Characters can not use stuff from 2014 PHB. There are not deities in the 2024 book was the point. Requiring that something be done but having no way to do it seemed to be a big oversight. The indications of everything so far is that while there will be a "Lore" section about famous NPCs and Places, there is not indication of a Deity specific session like there was in the 2014 PHB.
2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities. 2024 Characters can not use stuff from 2014 PHB. There are not deities in the 2024 book was the point. Requiring that something be done but having no way to do it seemed to be a big oversight. The indications of everything so far is that while there will be a "Lore" section about famous NPCs and Places, there is not indication of a Deity specific session like there was in the 2014 PHB.
Even if you've decided to use absolutely zero rules from 2014, you can still use the gods. Gods aren't rules. They're gods. And the lists of gods in the PHB were never lists for players to choose from, anyways; they were just examples of how the domains and alignments and whatnot worked.
Either the DM decides the pantheon for their world and the player can choose a god from that list, or the player and the DM work together to make a god for the Cleric to follow (or you play a Cleric without a deity, which is viable depending on the cosmology of your DM's world). You absolutely do not need lists of gods in the PHB to make a Cleric, and there is certainly not "no way" to get a deity for a Cleric.
Also, I seriously doubt that there won't be at least as much on gods in the DMG as there was in the 2014 PHB, especially considering the 2014 PHB had barely anything. Gods are worldbuilding and DMs do worldbuilding, so the DMG will (read: better) have guidelines on gods for DMs.
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2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities. 2024 Characters can not use stuff from 2014 PHB. There are not deities in the 2024 book was the point. Requiring that something be done but having no way to do it seemed to be a big oversight. The indications of everything so far is that while there will be a "Lore" section about famous NPCs and Places, there is not indication of a Deity specific session like there was in the 2014 PHB.
Even if you've decided to use absolutely zero rules from 2014, you can still use the gods. Gods aren't rules. They're gods. And the lists of gods in the PHB were never lists for players to choose from, anyways; they were just examples of how the domains and alignments and whatnot worked.
Using a god from the 2014 PHB with a 2024 character is like using one of the example character names from the species descriptions in there.
2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities. 2024 Characters can not use stuff from 2014 PHB. There are not deities in the 2024 book was the point. Requiring that something be done but having no way to do it seemed to be a big oversight. The indications of everything so far is that while there will be a "Lore" section about famous NPCs and Places, there is not indication of a Deity specific session like there was in the 2014 PHB.
It’s never once been said that 2024 characters can’t use something from 2014, quite the opposite in fact they’ve gone to great lengths to say everything is backwards compatible. What has been said is that if something in 2024 replaces something from 2014 then use the new version. 2024 characters can use 2014 subclasses, they can use 2014 feats, and yes they can use lore and fluff from the 2014 PHB
2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities. 2024 Characters can not use stuff from 2014 PHB. There are not deities in the 2024 book was the point. Requiring that something be done but having no way to do it seemed to be a big oversight. The indications of everything so far is that while there will be a "Lore" section about famous NPCs and Places, there is not indication of a Deity specific session like there was in the 2014 PHB.
Clerics of 2014 and 2024 have never required gods. They required domains, which were listed in the PHB in both cases. What deity name a player ascribed to any given domain was never a mechanical necessity to play the character.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
This topic is continuing to derail. These are the official stances D&D has had on Paladins and Clerics, prior, rules and lore as written.
5e, DMG (2014), p.13:
Not all divine powers need to be derived from deities. In some campaigns, believers hold enough conviction in their ideas about the universe that they gain magical power from that conviction. In other campaigns, impersonal forces of nature or magic replace the gods by granting power to mortals attuned to them. Just as druids and rangers can gain their spell ability from the force of nature rather than from a specific nature deity some clerics devote themselves to ideals rather than to a god. Paladins might serve a philosophy of justice and chivalry rather than a specific deity.
Forces and philosophies aren't worshiped; they aren't beings that can hear and respond to prayers or accept sacrifices. Devotion to a philosophy or a force isn't necessarily exclusive of service to a deity. A person can be devoted to the philosophy of good and offer worship to various good deities, or revere the force of nature and also pay homage to the gods of nature, who might be seen as personal manifestations of an impersonal force.
XGtE, 2017, page 18:
Some clerics, especially in a world like Eberron, serve a whole pantheon, rather than a single deity. In certain campaigns, a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments. Chapter 1 of the Dungeon Master's Guide explores options like these, in the section "Gods of Your World."
PHB (2014):
Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
Now, the 2024 version of Cleric does, much like the 2014 version, imply that Clerics by default channel a deity (or pantheon) and that the above text is an optional variant and not the assumed norm. 2014 Cleric:
Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects.
2024 Cleric actually allows more leeway- you're channeling the power from those planes, not the power of the gods themselves, and it can be an 'immortal being':
Clerics draw power from the realms of the gods and harness it to work miracles. Blessed by a deity, a pantheon, or another immortal entity, a Cleric can reach out to the divine magic of the Outer Planes—where gods dwell—and channel it to bolster people and battle foes.
This is not new to 5e.
3.5 Cleric:
Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church hierarchy.
3.5 Paladin:
Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity - devotion to righteousness is enough.
2e, Complete Priest Handbook, 1990, pg 11:
For each faith you establish in your campaign world, you have to decide what it is that's being worshipped and venerated: A God, a Force, or a Philosophy (...) In the AD&D® game, the God, Force, and Philosophy are identical in the way they are treated by the game mechanics. All three provide spells and powers to their priests.
All paladins have an abiding faith that serves as a moral compass and foundation for their ethical principles. Although most follow established religions, others draw spiritual sustenance from nontraditional philosophies and even natural forces. All paladins, however, believe in something: Their faith provides them with not only their spells, but also their special powers.
And so on.
This is not new, and in 5e it has been fairly explicit that these classes do not need to venerate a deity. Some settings, such as Eberron and Dark Sun also interact differently with deities.
You can have a preference and a houserule for how it works it your own game, but cannot say that deities are needed for these classes by the rules or lore (in general), or that this is a new change, or even that deities are being removed entirely, because this would be incorrect. You can state your preferences civilly. This is my last warning on that topic.
There can still be a discussion on where best to contain information on deities (PHB, DMG, Setting specific books...), how to approach deities from an official standpoint, how D&D has handled domains and pantheons, different setting lore, so on- it can be a fascinating discussion, but try to keep it relevant to the original post (relating back to 2024 changes), avoid religious debates that would break our rule on prohibited content, and do not try to limit or deride each other.
Edit: While using real life religions as examples can help clarity and diving into the practices and faiths of the writers and how that affected D&D's design is incredibly interesting and useful- Apologies, but this is not the space for such. Doing so will break our rules on prohibited content because it will inevitably end up being debates about those specific real faiths and how they should be and people interpretations and opinions, rather than D&D. Please keep to D&D examples of fictional faiths and deities (please try to avoid when they used real ones), or to broader terms such as nonthiestic, alatrism, polythiesm, monotheism, so on.
Mechanically, I would never allow a Cleric to NOT present a Holy Symbol when a spell or action states it is needed. And a Holy Symbol means a deity aka a god.
Going back to late stage 1e, Gods are not a requirement for Clerics. Merely faith in a deity and the power that comes from that faith. This was set as a basis circa 1981, specifically and intentionally.
That hasn't changed in any edition since then. Factually speaking. The use of Philosophies, of traditional pantheons, of fictional pantheons, etc. A holy Symbol can be anything -- as long as there is faith behind it.
That is incorrect. 1e and 2e both required the Cleric to have a Deity (see PHP Character Spells) to get their spells everyday. Now, under Basic rules, no Deity was required: just fighting for goodness, for the light etc.
Note that the list of Greyhawk Deities in the 2024 DMG has two additional Deities listed than the list in the 2014 PHB, but the 2014 PHB includes Deities from other settings and still seems to be a better list than the new 2024 DMG.
If no new information is released on Deities, it looks like the best official 5e list will be in the 2014 PHB.
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
With the 2024 edition they have worked really hard to move the DM stuff and Lore as a whole out of the PHB
I'm hoping this is a trend that continues continues in books after MM. One of the reasons ala cart was popular to some was, may be you only wanted a subclass out of a book, with a good portion of the material being DM oriented with you being a player. I'd like to see subclasses, backgrounds, feats be their own books that players can buy, without them having to buy stuff they don't need that is more DM campaign material.
Perhaps with campaign source books they could split it to a players book, DM's book, and a bundle if the DM wants both.
With the 2024 edition they have worked really hard to move the DM stuff and Lore as a whole out of the PHB
I'm hoping this is a trend that continues continues in books after MM. One of the reasons ala cart was popular to some was, may be you only wanted a subclass out of a book, with a good portion of the material being DM oriented with you being a player. I'd like to see subclasses, backgrounds, feats be their own books that players can buy, without them having to buy stuff they don't need that is more DM campaign material.
Perhaps with campaign source books they could split it to a players book, DM's book, and a bundle if the DM wants both.
The new Forgotten Realms books coming out this year will be a player and a DM version.
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They definitely seem to be experimenting with ways to divide up content in some releases between player stuff and DM stuff. With Planescape and Spelljammer they tried splitting monsters and adventures into separate content from the rest, now it sounds like they're looking for a more explicit "DM/Player" division. We'll see how the final product shakes out.
Frankly, I hope they don't overfocus on the mechanical in the player book. That's the biggest issue with the new PHB, imo. They put a lot more work into spelling out mechanics, but there's barely any prompts on how to build an actual character with their own identity as opposed to a collection of stats, gear, features, etc. As noted here, we don't even get the loose guidance of some suggested deity/domain correlations the 2014 PHB gave to give a common foundation for defining where a Cleric or Paladin is getting their power from.
Chiming in here to say that I personally think that forcing Clerics or Paladins into religion, rather than domain or oath, is problematic, to say the least.
A Warlock makes a Pact with an entity in 5e, but may not be required to worship them or extol their values.
A Cleric's power comes from faith in their domain, and while a deity is often a convenient locus of that, a person's faith in their domain isn't intrinsically born of worship of a god.
A Paladin's power comes from their conviction in following their Oath, and while that Oath may be in service to a deity's tenets, it isn't intrinsically born of faith itself in a deity.
A Druid may draw upon the power of the Old Faith, but said Old Faith isn't intrinsically worshiping or drawing power from a deity, even from a lore perspective. The power from the Old Faith doesn't preclude the worship of deities, either, but isn't against it.
A Sorcerer may have their power come from a deity's bloodline, but they aren't required to worship anyone in their bloodline, even if it's a Divinity from which their power comes.
If you forcibly chain a character to a deity as a DM, unless that is a mandatory part of the world you're residing in/have created, the narrative aspect of free will becomes meaningless, as the player characters are simply pawns of their "betters" instead of individuals with their own bodies, minds and souls.
At least, that's MY stance.
If you must mandate deity worship, make it matter in-game by having player characters have visions or nightmares of themselves as Larvae in Hades, Lemures in Avernus, and Manes in the Abyss if it's Hasbro canon lore. Otherwise...be creative. ;)
Chiming in here to say that I personally think that forcing Clerics or Paladins into religion, rather than domain or oath, is problematic, to say the least.
A Warlock makes a Pact with an entity in 5e, but may not be required to worship them or extol their values.
A Cleric's power comes from faith in their domain, and while a deity is often a convenient locus of that, a person's faith in their domain isn't intrinsically born of worship of a god.
A Paladin's power comes from their conviction in following their Oath, and while that Oath may be in service to a deity's tenets, it isn't intrinsically born of faith itself in a deity.
A Druid may draw upon the power of the Old Faith, but said Old Faith isn't intrinsically worshiping or drawing power from a deity, even from a lore perspective. The power from the Old Faith doesn't preclude the worship of deities, either, but isn't against it.
A Sorcerer may have their power come from a deity's bloodline, but they aren't required to worship anyone in their bloodline, even if it's a Divinity from which their power comes.
If you forcibly chain a character to a deity as a DM, unless that is a mandatory part of the world you're residing in/have created, the narrative aspect of free will becomes meaningless, as the player characters are simply pawns of their "betters" instead of individuals with their own bodies, minds and souls.
At least, that's MY stance.
If you must mandate deity worship, make it matter in-game by having player characters have visions or nightmares of themselves as Larvae in Hades, Lemures in Avernus, and Manes in the Abyss if it's Hasbro canon lore. Otherwise...be creative. ;)
Everyone sees things differently of course. I understand your perspective but personally think paladins and (much more so) clerics with no patron deity are very bland. Religious faction conflict and the unique things that can be built into the game for specific deities to me are a big part of making a DnD campaign feel alive. Of course you can have this without clerics/paladins being tied to the deities' religions, but that also feels extremely meh to me.
I think it's great both approaches are supported but agree with The_Ace_of_Rogues that player content that is solely crunchy with nothing to guide building interesting and distinct characters is not the way forward I would prefer for the game.
Yeah, I'm not saying the other should be blocked, but "just do whatever" is rather limited as a character prompt. It's not about forcing, just giving some direction new players have the option of using. Also helps DMs find plot hooks for characters if they want.
Yeah, I'm not saying the other should be blocked, but "just do whatever" is rather limited as a character prompt. It's not about forcing, just giving some direction new players have the option of using. Also helps DMs find plot hooks for characters if they want.
There's ways to make a godless, strictly domain-based cleric meaningful.
For example. An autognome Life Cleric unfamiliar with gods initially seeks to preserve life to fulfill its clockwork programming to the most efficient degree, and, eventually, they evolve as a character by realizing they have free will, they begin to realize that it wasn't their programming that made them so insistent on preserving life and healing people, but their own individuality, causing them to become not only a better healer, but also a better person, as their personal growth causes their faith in the domain of life to grow with it.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Yeah, I'm not saying the other should be blocked, but "just do whatever" is rather limited as a character prompt. It's not about forcing, just giving some direction new players have the option of using. Also helps DMs find plot hooks for characters if they want.
There's ways to make a godless, strictly domain-based cleric meaningful.
For example. An autognome Life Cleric unfamiliar with gods initially seeks to preserve life to fulfill its clockwork programming to the most efficient degree, and, eventually, they evolve as a character by realizing they have free will, they begin to realize that it wasn't their programming that made them so insistent on preserving life and healing people, but their own individuality, causing them to become not only a better healer, but also a better person, as their personal growth causes their faith in the domain of life to grow with it.
My point is not that it's impossible to come up with a backstory, but not everyone is good at improv writing off a generic prompt, and giving some specific names people can look up for reference provides more components people can use to assemble their character. Your example is a fairly generic "the character realized all they had to do was self-actualize" bit, which is fine, but it's self-contained and not particularly immersive to a setting. One common point of appeal for classes like Cleric, Paladin, and Warlock is having a stronger bond with something in the setting of the game specifically to enhance the immersion of the roleplay. Which perforce requires that something be defined, and telling all the people who are picking up a PHB- and possibly a DMG if this is a whole group of people checking out the game- for the first time to just wing it is not exactly the most inspirational or constructive prompt I can think of.
Yeah, I'm not saying the other should be blocked, but "just do whatever" is rather limited as a character prompt. It's not about forcing, just giving some direction new players have the option of using. Also helps DMs find plot hooks for characters if they want.
There's ways to make a godless, strictly domain-based cleric meaningful.
For example. An autognome Life Cleric unfamiliar with gods initially seeks to preserve life to fulfill its clockwork programming to the most efficient degree, and, eventually, they evolve as a character by realizing they have free will, they begin to realize that it wasn't their programming that made them so insistent on preserving life and healing people, but their own individuality, causing them to become not only a better healer, but also a better person, as their personal growth causes their faith in the domain of life to grow with it.
My point is not that it's impossible to come up with a backstory, but not everyone is good at improv writing off a generic prompt, and giving some specific names people can look up for reference provides more components people can use to assemble their character. Your example is a fairly generic "the character realized all they had to do was self-actualize" bit, which is fine, but it's self-contained and not particularly immersive to a setting. One common point of appeal for classes like Cleric, Paladin, and Warlock is having a stronger bond with something in the setting of the game specifically to enhance the immersion of the roleplay. Which perforce requires that something be defined, and telling all the people who are picking up a PHB- and possibly a DMG if this is a whole group of people checking out the game- for the first time to just wing it is not exactly the most inspirational or constructive prompt I can think of.
The lack of pinning people down has been a double-edged sword in 5e, that's for sure.
My final word is this:
They should have put out something in the 3 initial books regarding a list of potential pantheons of gods instead of paywalling this kind of thing behind "SCAG 2:All of FR This Time+Totally Fixing The Purple Dragon Knight Edition", but the need for godly ties as a PC is not RAW, & Session 0 should be used to establish whether people consent to being tied to gods, with the MANY checklists & tools out there.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Mechanically, I would never allow a Cleric to NOT present a Holy Symbol when a spell or action states it is needed. And a Holy Symbol means a deity aka a god.
Going back to late stage 1e, Gods are not a requirement for Clerics. Merely faith in a deity and the power that comes from that faith. This was set as a basis circa 1981, specifically and intentionally.
That hasn't changed in any edition since then. Factually speaking. The use of Philosophies, of traditional pantheons, of fictional pantheons, etc. A holy Symbol can be anything -- as long as there is faith behind it.
That is incorrect. 1e and 2e both required the Cleric to have a Deity (see PHP Character Spells) to get their spells everyday. Now, under Basic rules, no Deity was required: just fighting for goodness, for the light etc.
I was confusing that with Cleric from the Basic edition
2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities.
That's not entirely correct. Deities are just among the variants a Cleric relies upon. They can be a Deity, an entire Pantheon (meaning I guess no one in particular) or any Immortal entity. It says this the very first paragraph of the Class description.
This topic is continuing to derail. These are the official stances D&D has had on Paladins and Clerics, prior, rules and lore as written.
(...) You can have a preference and a houserule for how it works it your own game, but cannot say that deities are needed for these classes by the rules or lore (in general), or that this is a new change, or even that deities are being removed entirely, because this would be incorrect. You can state your preferences civilly. This is my last warning on that topic.
There can still be a discussion on where best to contain information on deities (PHB, DMG, Setting specific books...), how to approach deities from an official standpoint, how D&D has handled domains and pantheons, different setting lore, so on- it can be a fascinating discussion, but try to keep it relevant to the original post (relating back to 2024 changes), avoid religious debates that would break our rule on prohibited content, and do not try to limit or deride each other.
Edit: While using real life religions as examples can help clarity and diving into the practices and faiths of the writers and how that affected D&D's design is incredibly interesting and useful- Apologies, but this is not the space for such. Doing so will break our rules on prohibited content because it will inevitably end up being debates about those specific real faiths and how they should be and people interpretations and opinions, rather than D&D. Please keep to D&D examples of fictional faiths and deities (please try to avoid when they used real ones), or to broader terms such as nonthiestic, alatrism, polythiesm, monotheism, so on.
As folk keep ignoring these rules and continue to bring in real religious debate, edition wars and circular arguments, this thread is being locked.
2024 Clerics are a character that is required to use deities. 2024 Characters can not use stuff from 2014 PHB. There are not deities in the 2024 book was the point. Requiring that something be done but having no way to do it seemed to be a big oversight. The indications of everything so far is that while there will be a "Lore" section about famous NPCs and Places, there is not indication of a Deity specific session like there was in the 2014 PHB.
Christopher A. Blanchard
Even if you've decided to use absolutely zero rules from 2014, you can still use the gods. Gods aren't rules. They're gods. And the lists of gods in the PHB were never lists for players to choose from, anyways; they were just examples of how the domains and alignments and whatnot worked.
Either the DM decides the pantheon for their world and the player can choose a god from that list, or the player and the DM work together to make a god for the Cleric to follow (or you play a Cleric without a deity, which is viable depending on the cosmology of your DM's world). You absolutely do not need lists of gods in the PHB to make a Cleric, and there is certainly not "no way" to get a deity for a Cleric.
Also, I seriously doubt that there won't be at least as much on gods in the DMG as there was in the 2014 PHB, especially considering the 2014 PHB had barely anything. Gods are worldbuilding and DMs do worldbuilding, so the DMG will (read: better) have guidelines on gods for DMs.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Using a god from the 2014 PHB with a 2024 character is like using one of the example character names from the species descriptions in there.
It’s never once been said that 2024 characters can’t use something from 2014, quite the opposite in fact they’ve gone to great lengths to say everything is backwards compatible. What has been said is that if something in 2024 replaces something from 2014 then use the new version. 2024 characters can use 2014 subclasses, they can use 2014 feats, and yes they can use lore and fluff from the 2014 PHB
Clerics of 2014 and 2024 have never required gods. They required domains, which were listed in the PHB in both cases. What deity name a player ascribed to any given domain was never a mechanical necessity to play the character.
This topic is continuing to derail. These are the official stances D&D has had on Paladins and Clerics, prior, rules and lore as written.
5e, DMG (2014), p.13:
XGtE, 2017, page 18:
PHB (2014):
Now, the 2024 version of Cleric does, much like the 2014 version, imply that Clerics by default channel a deity (or pantheon) and that the above text is an optional variant and not the assumed norm.
2014 Cleric:
2024 Cleric actually allows more leeway- you're channeling the power from those planes, not the power of the gods themselves, and it can be an 'immortal being':
This is not new to 5e.
3.5 Cleric:
3.5 Paladin:
2e, Complete Priest Handbook, 1990, pg 11:
2e, Complete Paladin's Handbook, 1994, Chapter 8 Faith:
And so on.
This is not new, and in 5e it has been fairly explicit that these classes do not need to venerate a deity. Some settings, such as Eberron and Dark Sun also interact differently with deities.
You can have a preference and a houserule for how it works it your own game, but cannot say that deities are needed for these classes by the rules or lore (in general), or that this is a new change, or even that deities are being removed entirely, because this would be incorrect. You can state your preferences civilly. This is my last warning on that topic.
There can still be a discussion on where best to contain information on deities (PHB, DMG, Setting specific books...), how to approach deities from an official standpoint, how D&D has handled domains and pantheons, different setting lore, so on- it can be a fascinating discussion, but try to keep it relevant to the original post (relating back to 2024 changes), avoid religious debates that would break our rule on prohibited content, and do not try to limit or deride each other.
Edit: While using real life religions as examples can help clarity and diving into the practices and faiths of the writers and how that affected D&D's design is incredibly interesting and useful- Apologies, but this is not the space for such. Doing so will break our rules on prohibited content because it will inevitably end up being debates about those specific real faiths and how they should be and people interpretations and opinions, rather than D&D. Please keep to D&D examples of fictional faiths and deities (please try to avoid when they used real ones), or to broader terms such as nonthiestic, alatrism, polythiesm, monotheism, so on.
D&D Beyond ToS || D&D Beyond Support
That is incorrect. 1e and 2e both required the Cleric to have a Deity (see PHP Character Spells) to get their spells everyday. Now, under Basic rules, no Deity was required: just fighting for goodness, for the light etc.
Greetings everyone,
To circle back to the original post, the new 2024 PHB does not include a list of Deities, but the new 2024 DMG includes some for the Greyhawk Setting.
So for official 5e, we have the following lists of Deities:
Note that the list of Greyhawk Deities in the 2024 DMG has two additional Deities listed than the list in the 2014 PHB, but the 2014 PHB includes Deities from other settings and still seems to be a better list than the new 2024 DMG.
If no new information is released on Deities, it looks like the best official 5e list will be in the 2014 PHB.
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Interestingly, even in the DMG, they just dip their toes into the HUGE list of deities available for Greyhawk. They only list maybe a third of them.
I'm hoping this is a trend that continues continues in books after MM.
One of the reasons ala cart was popular to some was, may be you only wanted a subclass out of a book, with a good portion of the material being DM oriented with you being a player. I'd like to see subclasses, backgrounds, feats be their own books that players can buy, without them having to buy stuff they don't need that is more DM campaign material.
Perhaps with campaign source books they could split it to a players book, DM's book, and a bundle if the DM wants both.
The new Forgotten Realms books coming out this year will be a player and a DM version.
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They definitely seem to be experimenting with ways to divide up content in some releases between player stuff and DM stuff. With Planescape and Spelljammer they tried splitting monsters and adventures into separate content from the rest, now it sounds like they're looking for a more explicit "DM/Player" division. We'll see how the final product shakes out.
Frankly, I hope they don't overfocus on the mechanical in the player book. That's the biggest issue with the new PHB, imo. They put a lot more work into spelling out mechanics, but there's barely any prompts on how to build an actual character with their own identity as opposed to a collection of stats, gear, features, etc. As noted here, we don't even get the loose guidance of some suggested deity/domain correlations the 2014 PHB gave to give a common foundation for defining where a Cleric or Paladin is getting their power from.
Chiming in here to say that I personally think that forcing Clerics or Paladins into religion, rather than domain or oath, is problematic, to say the least.
A Warlock makes a Pact with an entity in 5e, but may not be required to worship them or extol their values.
A Cleric's power comes from faith in their domain, and while a deity is often a convenient locus of that, a person's faith in their domain isn't intrinsically born of worship of a god.
A Paladin's power comes from their conviction in following their Oath, and while that Oath may be in service to a deity's tenets, it isn't intrinsically born of faith itself in a deity.
A Druid may draw upon the power of the Old Faith, but said Old Faith isn't intrinsically worshiping or drawing power from a deity, even from a lore perspective. The power from the Old Faith doesn't preclude the worship of deities, either, but isn't against it.
A Sorcerer may have their power come from a deity's bloodline, but they aren't required to worship anyone in their bloodline, even if it's a Divinity from which their power comes.
If you forcibly chain a character to a deity as a DM, unless that is a mandatory part of the world you're residing in/have created, the narrative aspect of free will becomes meaningless, as the player characters are simply pawns of their "betters" instead of individuals with their own bodies, minds and souls.
At least, that's MY stance.
If you must mandate deity worship, make it matter in-game by having player characters have visions or nightmares of themselves as Larvae in Hades, Lemures in Avernus, and Manes in the Abyss if it's Hasbro canon lore. Otherwise...be creative. ;)
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Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Everyone sees things differently of course. I understand your perspective but personally think paladins and (much more so) clerics with no patron deity are very bland. Religious faction conflict and the unique things that can be built into the game for specific deities to me are a big part of making a DnD campaign feel alive. Of course you can have this without clerics/paladins being tied to the deities' religions, but that also feels extremely meh to me.
I think it's great both approaches are supported but agree with The_Ace_of_Rogues that player content that is solely crunchy with nothing to guide building interesting and distinct characters is not the way forward I would prefer for the game.
Yeah, I'm not saying the other should be blocked, but "just do whatever" is rather limited as a character prompt. It's not about forcing, just giving some direction new players have the option of using. Also helps DMs find plot hooks for characters if they want.
There's ways to make a godless, strictly domain-based cleric meaningful.
For example. An autognome Life Cleric unfamiliar with gods initially seeks to preserve life to fulfill its clockwork programming to the most efficient degree, and, eventually, they evolve as a character by realizing they have free will, they begin to realize that it wasn't their programming that made them so insistent on preserving life and healing people, but their own individuality, causing them to become not only a better healer, but also a better person, as their personal growth causes their faith in the domain of life to grow with it.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
My point is not that it's impossible to come up with a backstory, but not everyone is good at improv writing off a generic prompt, and giving some specific names people can look up for reference provides more components people can use to assemble their character. Your example is a fairly generic "the character realized all they had to do was self-actualize" bit, which is fine, but it's self-contained and not particularly immersive to a setting. One common point of appeal for classes like Cleric, Paladin, and Warlock is having a stronger bond with something in the setting of the game specifically to enhance the immersion of the roleplay. Which perforce requires that something be defined, and telling all the people who are picking up a PHB- and possibly a DMG if this is a whole group of people checking out the game- for the first time to just wing it is not exactly the most inspirational or constructive prompt I can think of.
The lack of pinning people down has been a double-edged sword in 5e, that's for sure.
My final word is this:
They should have put out something in the 3 initial books regarding a list of potential pantheons of gods instead of paywalling this kind of thing behind "SCAG 2:All of FR This Time+Totally Fixing The Purple Dragon Knight Edition", but the need for godly ties as a PC is not RAW, & Session 0 should be used to establish whether people consent to being tied to gods, with the MANY checklists & tools out there.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I was confusing that with Cleric from the Basic edition
That's not entirely correct. Deities are just among the variants a Cleric relies upon. They can be a Deity, an entire Pantheon (meaning I guess no one in particular) or any Immortal entity. It says this the very first paragraph of the Class description.
As folk keep ignoring these rules and continue to bring in real religious debate, edition wars and circular arguments, this thread is being locked.
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