We just started the Pandelver and Below campaign, from the first session is clear that the DM is not familiar with the material. That would not be a major issue if not for the fact that it's throwing balace out of the window. How would you approach the issue?
I pointed out the first mistakes, but I don't want to be that guy that interrupt the game every 30 min.
A few examples of what I'm dealing with:
all CR 1/4 goblins have 15 hp
goblin boss' multi-attack means that they can AoE everyone around them. Twice (at least the second has disadvantage)
CR 2 snake, that I later found out was supposed to be CR 1/4 (this one I kind of understand)
he messed up the map layout, and forgot the bugbear boss (I looked it up later)
We still played 8h and it was enjoyable, but I fear that once we move to harder parts it's going to become a bigger problem.
We just started the Pandelver and Below campaign, from the first session is clear that the DM is not familiar with the material. That would not be a major issue if not for the fact that it's throwing balace out of the window. How would you approach the issue?
I pointed out the first mistakes, but I don't want to be that guy that interrupt the game every 30 min.
A few examples of what I'm dealing with:
all CR 1/4 goblins have 15 hp
goblin boss' multi-attack means that they can AoE everyone around them. Twice (at least the second has disadvantage)
CR 2 snake, that I later found out was supposed to be CR 1/4 (this one I kind of understand)
he messed up the map layout, and forgot the bugbear boss (I looked it up later)
We still played 8h and it was enjoyable, but I fear that once we move to harder parts it's going to become a bigger problem.
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about the role of a DM here. Outside of something like DDAL, DMs making changes to published adventures when they run them is extremely common, nearly universal. The idea that a DM should always adhere precisely and strictly to exactly what's in any published material is simply incorrect; it's not how the game is intended to be played by any means. If there are differences between the written content and what the DM is actually doing, these are not necessarily "mistakes" or the DM "not being familiar with the material".
If you feel that the adventure you're playing is too hard, or in some other way not fun for you, that's definitely something you can bring up with your DM! No one should be stuck not having a good time because of choices the DM makes. But I really think you need to re-examine the way you're thinking about this, and definitely don't point out these changes to your DM as "mistakes", because that will make you sound entitled and self-important.
As a DM myself all of these fall under "the DM can do that if they want to"
I change the HP of monsters all the time, I throw in monsters that aren't in the book, I take out stuff because I want to change the flow of combat. A big reason to do all of these things is to throw off players who go and read the adventure to plan what should be coming but it could also be because they want to run an adventure that's tougher than the published one.
You enjoyed it, and not just enjoyed it but enjoyed over a very long session, so I'm not sure I see the problem
The snake thing he said "I don't know why they put this here."
the map error he said "there should be a tunnel here" which was in the previous section. We skipped directly in the boss lair and there was no one there.
I think he wants to stick to the matrial, but he's just not reading it with enough attention.
Do you want to DM? If yes, you should do so. If not, you should keep these concerns to yourself. At the very least while the game is in session. If you absolutely must air your concerns, approach the DM outside of play time. Just be aware that a DM is free to alter a written adventure, or any part of the rules or game in fact, as they see fit. What you view as errors may be by design. Take care that you don’t find yourself asked to leave the table or cause the DM to quit altogether. Players are dime a dozen whereas DM’s are a precious commodity.
In a situation like this, I consider whether I am having fun. Is the DM having fun? Are the other players having fun? It is way more important to have fun than it is do things “correctly.” Another consideration is that it’s viewed bad form by many to read the adventure you’re playing; reading ahead is kind of cheating and checking up afterwards is kind of rude.
The snake thing he said "I don't know why they put this here."
the map error he said "there should be a tunnel here" which was in the previous section. We skipped directly in the boss lair and there was no one there.
I think he wants to stick to the matrial, but he's just not reading it with enough attention.
How long have they been DMing? If it's the first or second time it's possible they're still learning to what and how they need to prep, it's different for everyone and takes time to get right for you. If they're more experienced I'd direct you back to the previous replies that DMs are not only allowed but expected to change campaigns as they see fit to meet the needs of their table.
As said above the important thing is everyone having fun, not everyone playing a campaign exactly as written in the book
If you enjoyed it, then it's all good. He'll pick things up. I'm running RotFM and I was having to alter every encounter because there was so little challenge to it (we're approaching the end and I finally feel like I don't need to make enemies harder...in fact, they're possibly in for a TPK despite me running it as RAW).
If you're having fun, it's all good. The only "concern" is forgetting about a tunnel, bugbear etc. However, there is a ton to do and if he's new, I'm really not surprised that stuff is being forgotten. I forgot stuff all the time at the beginning.
Give him space. Let him get used to stuff...and remember, if you're enjoying it, hes.dojgn it right. If he asks questions or something is obviously wrong (not "I cheated and read the adventure afterwards and noticed that...", I mean "I can't help but notice that the Goblin had five actions that round and this has headed to a TPK..."), then help. Otherwise, enjoy the fact that he's putting the effort in to DM so you can play.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I thought you said everyone had fun. That’s all that matters.
And, honestly, you only know they’re “mistakes” is because you looked them up. Players checking what it says in an adventure is a no-no. If I knew I had players who looked up information in the adventure, you can but I’d be making changes, too. Which can mean, as others said, they may not have been mistakes, but choices.
We just started the Pandelver and Below campaign, from the first session is clear that the DM is not familiar with the material. That would not be a major issue if not for the fact that it's throwing balace out of the window. How would you approach the issue?
I pointed out the first mistakes, but I don't want to be that guy that interrupt the game every 30 min.
A few examples of what I'm dealing with:
all CR 1/4 goblins have 15 hp
goblin boss' multi-attack means that they can AoE everyone around them. Twice (at least the second has disadvantage)
CR 2 snake, that I later found out was supposed to be CR 1/4 (this one I kind of understand)
he messed up the map layout, and forgot the bugbear boss (I looked it up later)
We still played 8h and it was enjoyable, but I fear that once we move to harder parts it's going to become a bigger problem.
Did it occur to you that maybe he modified the monsters? Forgetting something on a map is not always avoidable.
Yeah, we DMs do that a lot. Trying to ad-lib, keep track of game mechanics, adjudicate rolls, keep momentum going, look things up on the fly....Alas, we are mere mortals. We miss things, we forget, we make bad calls. It happens.
Rather than pointing out "mistakes" (which they may not even be), I encourage you to extend your DM grace and just let it flow. Good players are supportive of each other and their DMs. If the DM does something that actively feels unfair or impacts your enjoyment of the game, talk to them privately about it, and be open-minded and respectful when you do.
Also, if you notice these "errors" because you're looking at the source material on your own, or you have memorized the Monster Manual and know there are changes...that's metagaming, which is generally frowned upon. Your character wouldn't know a goblin's HP, or that there "should be" a boss in a given room. Besides, maybe this goblin is tougher than most, and the bugbear boss went out for a smoke break just before your party walked in. Let the story unfold and enjoy it as it comes, rather than how you think it's supposed to.
One additional point that I think might be very important:
It seems like you (AgentFoG) have read the adventure prior to playing in it and this is causing your disconnect.
Just as it's important to recognize that the DM's job inherently mandates they make changes for the table and make mistakes every session, it's equally important not to meta-game if you know the material. This is your opportunity to roleplay a character seeing this stuff for the first time, even if you - as a player- know it well. The DM making 'mistakes' adds an unexpected element for you, which is a little fresh air for you to roleplay from.
I see this situation as potentially all good. The DM will make mistakes and learn, and your (possible) meta-knowledge will be pleasantly surprised.
So can I ask you a few questions back, this isn't an attack.
How many players are in your campaign?
Are you paying this DM at all?
Why was your game 8 hours long in a single session?
Have you DM'd a game before?
Does your character have knowledge that Goblins have a specific HP?
Who says the snake couldn't have eaten more goblins and leveled up to be more difficult?
If you knew the map layout and would be using that knowledge in the game surely that's meta gaming? Why wouldn't it be better if they mixed it up if you've done it before?
So can I ask you a few questions back, this isn't an attack.
How many players are in your campaign?
Are you paying this DM at all?
Why was your game 8 hours long in a single session?
Have you DM'd a game before?
Does your character have knowledge that Goblins have a specific HP?
Who says the snake couldn't have eaten more goblins and leveled up to be more difficult?
If you knew the map layout and would be using that knowledge in the game surely that's meta gaming? Why wouldn't it be better if they mixed it up if you've done it before?
4 + DM
no we're all friends
that's just how it went. We had dinner toghether so it was more like 7h . Also it's a once a month kind of campaign.
no
I mean, goblin are the definition of weak monster... I'm 80% sure that he mistook the AC for HP
the DM, see my second post
it was the first time, he just interpreted the passage wrong
Just to be clear, I did not read the campaign before, but the DM himself told us that some part where odd to him (the OP snake and part of the map) so I googled it after. I'm not even sure if I should tell him he made those mistakes, since at this point it doesn't matter.
I wouldn't say anything. Wobbly starts are part of life, and he'll grow into it and ultimately, you had fun, so no harm no foul. I'd only say something if he starts doing something broken like trying to give his Cult Fanatics an effective AC of 33 because he's getting mixed up between HP and AC.
Honestly, if you're having to Google or otherwise "peak behind the screen" to know that something is wrong, then it's not worth mentioning. If it's something really broken (like an impossibly high AC), then it'll be obvious and will give you a lead-in to discuss it.
"Wait, my 24 to hit didn't hit that weak little Goblin? That's a very high AC..."
"That's what it says, it's like 27."
"Really? Usually it's like 13 or 14 or something?"
"No, the HP is...ah crap!"
*Everyone laughs and it becomes a funny story*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is a case that falls somewhere between "misunderstanding of material" and "creative scrutiny".
So here is the thing, strictly speaking, as a player, you have no business "knowing things" taking place behind the DM screen, for the lack of a better term. Like how many hit points a monster has or what their AC is, that is information in the Monster Manual, you have no business even looking at it. What the map is or isn't, what the adventure says or doesn't say, etc.. again, you have no business looking up any of that stuff, that is a clear breaking of the social contract. Even if the DM asked you to look at it you should refuse on principle, it is not your job to help the DM "run the adventure correctly" and you should complain if you are ever asked to do something like that.
The reality is that DM makes mistakes all the time, in fact, I would argue with 99% certainty that no one has ever run any adventure, ever in 50 years of D&D "correctly". I believe it to be physically impossible.
Screwing up the map, the monsters, adventure plots and pretty much anything and everything else.... is ...NORMAL...and always happens. As players unless you're looking stuff up and checking, you would never even become aware of it. Grant it, a good/experienced DM will cover this up and not show the appearance of an error, but trust me, DM error.... happens ALL THE TIME..
Your job as a player is to deal with what is in front of you with no assumptions about what anything is supposed to be. Even the actual rules of the game are not for you to debate... if a DM says roll a D10 to attack.... you know its supposed to be a D20, but he said D10 so that's what you roll. Why? Doesn't matter why, the assumption is that the DM has a reason for it. Now I will grant you that this is an extreme case that requires extreme trust, but as a player that's kind of your job. Trust your DM to be the person who knows the why of everything, assume they have perfect control and like a Wizard, everything that happens is presumed to be intended.
What you have done is peeked behind the curtain and I understand your point, even the desire to peek, but the reality is that if players start peeking behind the curtain like this, what you will discover is that all DM's are basically incompetent monkeys faking the whole thing! This assumption that DM's have complete control and are always doing everything as it's supposed to be is laughable.
So don't peek, its a bloody mess back there and the less you know the better off you are.
We just started the Pandelver and Below campaign, from the first session is clear that the DM is not familiar with the material. That would not be a major issue if not for the fact that it's throwing balace out of the window. How would you approach the issue?
I pointed out the first mistakes, but I don't want to be that guy that interrupt the game every 30 min.
A few examples of what I'm dealing with:
We still played 8h and it was enjoyable, but I fear that once we move to harder parts it's going to become a bigger problem.
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about the role of a DM here. Outside of something like DDAL, DMs making changes to published adventures when they run them is extremely common, nearly universal. The idea that a DM should always adhere precisely and strictly to exactly what's in any published material is simply incorrect; it's not how the game is intended to be played by any means. If there are differences between the written content and what the DM is actually doing, these are not necessarily "mistakes" or the DM "not being familiar with the material".
If you feel that the adventure you're playing is too hard, or in some other way not fun for you, that's definitely something you can bring up with your DM! No one should be stuck not having a good time because of choices the DM makes. But I really think you need to re-examine the way you're thinking about this, and definitely don't point out these changes to your DM as "mistakes", because that will make you sound entitled and self-important.
pronouns: he/she/they
As a DM myself all of these fall under "the DM can do that if they want to"
I change the HP of monsters all the time, I throw in monsters that aren't in the book, I take out stuff because I want to change the flow of combat. A big reason to do all of these things is to throw off players who go and read the adventure to plan what should be coming but it could also be because they want to run an adventure that's tougher than the published one.
You enjoyed it, and not just enjoyed it but enjoyed over a very long session, so I'm not sure I see the problem
But they were mistakes.
The snake thing he said "I don't know why they put this here."
the map error he said "there should be a tunnel here" which was in the previous section. We skipped directly in the boss lair and there was no one there.
I think he wants to stick to the matrial, but he's just not reading it with enough attention.
Do you want to DM? If yes, you should do so. If not, you should keep these concerns to yourself. At the very least while the game is in session. If you absolutely must air your concerns, approach the DM outside of play time. Just be aware that a DM is free to alter a written adventure, or any part of the rules or game in fact, as they see fit. What you view as errors may be by design. Take care that you don’t find yourself asked to leave the table or cause the DM to quit altogether. Players are dime a dozen whereas DM’s are a precious commodity.
In a situation like this, I consider whether I am having fun. Is the DM having fun? Are the other players having fun? It is way more important to have fun than it is do things “correctly.” Another consideration is that it’s viewed bad form by many to read the adventure you’re playing; reading ahead is kind of cheating and checking up afterwards is kind of rude.
How long have they been DMing? If it's the first or second time it's possible they're still learning to what and how they need to prep, it's different for everyone and takes time to get right for you. If they're more experienced I'd direct you back to the previous replies that DMs are not only allowed but expected to change campaigns as they see fit to meet the needs of their table.
As said above the important thing is everyone having fun, not everyone playing a campaign exactly as written in the book
If you enjoyed it, then it's all good. He'll pick things up. I'm running RotFM and I was having to alter every encounter because there was so little challenge to it (we're approaching the end and I finally feel like I don't need to make enemies harder...in fact, they're possibly in for a TPK despite me running it as RAW).
If you're having fun, it's all good. The only "concern" is forgetting about a tunnel, bugbear etc. However, there is a ton to do and if he's new, I'm really not surprised that stuff is being forgotten. I forgot stuff all the time at the beginning.
Give him space. Let him get used to stuff...and remember, if you're enjoying it, hes.dojgn it right. If he asks questions or something is obviously wrong (not "I cheated and read the adventure afterwards and noticed that...", I mean "I can't help but notice that the Goblin had five actions that round and this has headed to a TPK..."), then help. Otherwise, enjoy the fact that he's putting the effort in to DM so you can play.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I thought you said everyone had fun. That’s all that matters.
And, honestly, you only know they’re “mistakes” is because you looked them up. Players checking what it says in an adventure is a no-no. If I knew I had players who looked up information in the adventure, you can but I’d be making changes, too. Which can mean, as others said, they may not have been mistakes, but choices.
Did it occur to you that maybe he modified the monsters? Forgetting something on a map is not always avoidable.
Yeah, we DMs do that a lot. Trying to ad-lib, keep track of game mechanics, adjudicate rolls, keep momentum going, look things up on the fly....Alas, we are mere mortals. We miss things, we forget, we make bad calls. It happens.
Rather than pointing out "mistakes" (which they may not even be), I encourage you to extend your DM grace and just let it flow. Good players are supportive of each other and their DMs. If the DM does something that actively feels unfair or impacts your enjoyment of the game, talk to them privately about it, and be open-minded and respectful when you do.
Also, if you notice these "errors" because you're looking at the source material on your own, or you have memorized the Monster Manual and know there are changes...that's metagaming, which is generally frowned upon. Your character wouldn't know a goblin's HP, or that there "should be" a boss in a given room. Besides, maybe this goblin is tougher than most, and the bugbear boss went out for a smoke break just before your party walked in. Let the story unfold and enjoy it as it comes, rather than how you think it's supposed to.
If it was enjoyable then leave it go. Maybe it was a mistake or maybe not.
One additional point that I think might be very important:
It seems like you (AgentFoG) have read the adventure prior to playing in it and this is causing your disconnect.
Just as it's important to recognize that the DM's job inherently mandates they make changes for the table and make mistakes every session, it's equally important not to meta-game if you know the material. This is your opportunity to roleplay a character seeing this stuff for the first time, even if you - as a player- know it well. The DM making 'mistakes' adds an unexpected element for you, which is a little fresh air for you to roleplay from.
I see this situation as potentially all good. The DM will make mistakes and learn, and your (possible) meta-knowledge will be pleasantly surprised.
So can I ask you a few questions back, this isn't an attack.
Just to be clear, I did not read the campaign before, but the DM himself told us that some part where odd to him (the OP snake and part of the map) so I googled it after. I'm not even sure if I should tell him he made those mistakes, since at this point it doesn't matter.
I wouldn't say anything. Wobbly starts are part of life, and he'll grow into it and ultimately, you had fun, so no harm no foul. I'd only say something if he starts doing something broken like trying to give his Cult Fanatics an effective AC of 33 because he's getting mixed up between HP and AC.
Honestly, if you're having to Google or otherwise "peak behind the screen" to know that something is wrong, then it's not worth mentioning. If it's something really broken (like an impossibly high AC), then it'll be obvious and will give you a lead-in to discuss it.
"Wait, my 24 to hit didn't hit that weak little Goblin? That's a very high AC..."
"That's what it says, it's like 27."
"Really? Usually it's like 13 or 14 or something?"
"No, the HP is...ah crap!"
*Everyone laughs and it becomes a funny story*
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is a case that falls somewhere between "misunderstanding of material" and "creative scrutiny".
So here is the thing, strictly speaking, as a player, you have no business "knowing things" taking place behind the DM screen, for the lack of a better term. Like how many hit points a monster has or what their AC is, that is information in the Monster Manual, you have no business even looking at it. What the map is or isn't, what the adventure says or doesn't say, etc.. again, you have no business looking up any of that stuff, that is a clear breaking of the social contract. Even if the DM asked you to look at it you should refuse on principle, it is not your job to help the DM "run the adventure correctly" and you should complain if you are ever asked to do something like that.
The reality is that DM makes mistakes all the time, in fact, I would argue with 99% certainty that no one has ever run any adventure, ever in 50 years of D&D "correctly". I believe it to be physically impossible.
Screwing up the map, the monsters, adventure plots and pretty much anything and everything else.... is ...NORMAL...and always happens. As players unless you're looking stuff up and checking, you would never even become aware of it. Grant it, a good/experienced DM will cover this up and not show the appearance of an error, but trust me, DM error.... happens ALL THE TIME..
Your job as a player is to deal with what is in front of you with no assumptions about what anything is supposed to be. Even the actual rules of the game are not for you to debate... if a DM says roll a D10 to attack.... you know its supposed to be a D20, but he said D10 so that's what you roll. Why? Doesn't matter why, the assumption is that the DM has a reason for it. Now I will grant you that this is an extreme case that requires extreme trust, but as a player that's kind of your job. Trust your DM to be the person who knows the why of everything, assume they have perfect control and like a Wizard, everything that happens is presumed to be intended.
What you have done is peeked behind the curtain and I understand your point, even the desire to peek, but the reality is that if players start peeking behind the curtain like this, what you will discover is that all DM's are basically incompetent monkeys faking the whole thing! This assumption that DM's have complete control and are always doing everything as it's supposed to be is laughable.
So don't peek, its a bloody mess back there and the less you know the better off you are.