I am curious to know people's thoughts on why it is they figure the term master, a term that is both gendered and has more than a few negative connotations provided its less than pleasant history, has remained.
People here will routinely talk about how sexist it is for rulebooks to use male pronouns. So why does a word as gendered as master and particularly given it is given to the person at the head of the table then get to remain?
People here will routinely talk about the importance of achieving both inclusivity and sensitivity. So why has the word master not been replaced like it has in many other industries because of its implications?
I use the gender-neutral referee at my table. (As does the version of the game I am currently using.)
How about others?
What are people's thoughts on the term Dungeon Master?
Is it purely out of tradition that many refuse to let it go?
Master can mean teacher or one with a certain threshold level of expertise in a skill i.e. master crafter. I don't know if it retains a gendered nature in those instances.
Then again, I'm not the sort to mind if it does.
I'd just as easily call a female DM Dungeon Mistress if that is what she prefers.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Personally, I don't really care. So long as it's something easy to remember, clear and fairly short, then it doesn't bother me much what we call them. I doubt that it'll be quick to change, half the industry calls them Dungeon Masters, three quarters of what's left calls them Game's Masters, then most of what's left calls them some variation on that (eg TOR calls them Lore Masters). That'll be a hard change, especially since I don't think most people even have any issue with it. Master is used for a lot of things and, to my feel of it, doesn't even really have much tie to gender. Women can get Master's Degrees just as, well, I wouldn't necessarily describe it as easily per se, but with the same amount of effort as men.
I have to ask though, are there actually people offended by this? Or is this looking for something to protect them against? I'm happy for things to change if something makes them feel uncomfortable...but I'm not comfortable with telling people they should be offended by something.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Master can mean teacher or one with a certain threshold level of expertise in a skill i.e. master crafter. I don't know if it retains a gendered nature in those instances.
Then again, I'm not the sort to mind if it does.
I'd just as easily call a female DM Dungeon Mistress if that is what she prefers.
I'll be honest, I wouldn't want to call someone a Dungeon Mistress...that has connotations that go way beyond rolling a few dice! My wife maybe, but it'd have to be a different term for anyone else...
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Master is only a gendered noun in the specific use case of a head of household, which does not apply to D&D.
That is not true. Among its many meanings are a term for a boy not yet old enough to qualify as a Mr., a man with servants or slaves, a man occupying any role of authority, a male teacher, ...
A master can simply mean anyone who has mastered something. Or who has mastery over something.
I believe these are its implied meanings in the context of D&D. Because the DM has mastered and has mastery over the rules.
But can we at least have an honest discussion and not mar the discussion with claims that something as simple as a dictionary can show to be untrue?
Personally, I don't really care. So long as it's something easy to remember, clear and fairly short, then it doesn't bother me much what we call them. I doubt that it'll be quick to change, half the industry calls them Dungeon Masters, three quarters of what's left calls them Game's Masters, then most of what's left calls them some variation on that (eg TOR calls them Lore Masters). That'll be a hard change, especially since I don't think most people even have any issue with it. Master is used for a lot of things and, to my feel of it, doesn't even really have much tie to gender. Women can get Master's Degrees just as, well, I wouldn't necessarily describe it as easily per se, but with the same amount of effort as men.
I have to ask though, are there actually people offended by this? Or is this looking for something to protect them against? I'm happy for things to change if something makes them feel uncomfortable...but I'm not comfortable with telling people they should be offended by something.
It's only D&D that uses the term Dungeon Master. At least on paper. Because it is trademarked. All other games use game master or some other term. Not even clones of D&D use the term Dungeon Master.
Yea, and D&S is like half the market. Your complaint seems to be based around the word Master, and many games use it.
What's your point?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yea, and D&S is like half the market. Your complaint seems to be based around the word Master, and many games use it.
What's your point?
I have simply asked what others think. Sure. Many games do use the word "master." My original post says I use referee. But I'm not at all "complaining" about the use of "master." I am asking what people's thoughts are on the term. If it's purely out of tradition why they use the term.
I have played D&D with people over the years who have come from other games and who use the term game master out of habit. Whether or not it contains the word "master" isn't really the point there: people seem to use the term out of tradition or out of habit. But one would think given some of the negative connotations of the word—you yourself have mentioned those of the word "mistress"—it might have been changed by now.
EDIT: With regard to the word "mistress," many of the same implications come with the word "master." As anyone who has spent any real time in certain underground scenes would know. "mistress" is, however, also commonly used for women in authority roles in educational or religious institutions. It's not all "bad."
Dungeon Master is a trademark of Hasbro, part of the purchase of assets originally developed and created by TSR, which initially trademarked the term and successfully defended it on at least one occasion.
it is, therefore, intellectual property of value and importance, both economic and historic, in addition to having a cultural cache that provides a significant degree of weight to the term.
A Dungeon Master is someone who acts as the referee, narrator, and other aspects of the principal player for the game Dungeons and Dragons.
Back in the old days, a few other games tried to call their GM's DMs, and got slapped on the wrist for it.
Next, "master" has a different degree of gendered structure in relation to the specific use of the term within its context. A Master of Fine Arts or a Master of Psychology are not gendered forms of address, for example. However, the use of the term in relation to property and in use as a form of address is indeed a gendered term.
Many forms of gendered address are such, but the term is not a form of address, merely a description of a role that encompasses multiple tasks -- organizer, narrator, referee, planner, designer, and so forth.
it is the only term that applies to that role within the game itself, and is not, inherently gendered in and of itself, any more than a Doctor would be -- which is why so many other games and the term in general remain Game Master.
As for the use of Mistress, yes you may, and I do expect it, and there will be punishment should you fail to use the proper term.
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A Dungeon Master is someone who acts as the referee, narrator, and other aspects of the principal player for the game Dungeons and Dragons.
I would agree that this is the purpose of whoever occupies the role. And agree with pretty much everything else you said.
But it is Gygax who is credited with having come up with the term Dungeon Master. There is some serious incoherence and self-contradiction going on to suggest he only ever intended boys and men to play—even though he wrote in 1978, and even a fair number of women are counted among those who regularly play the game—and baked these prejudices into the game but then to insist the term could not possibly have any such implications.
We all know what it means in the context of D&D and other such games. We also know that there needs to be a symbiotic connection between Player and DM. Furthermore, every table I've participated, we've used character names for RP and first names for everything else - including the DM.
A Dungeon Master is someone who acts as the referee, narrator, and other aspects of the principal player for the game Dungeons and Dragons.
I would agree that this is the purpose of whoever occupies the role. And agree with pretty much everything else you said.
But it is Gygax who is credited with having come up with the term Dungeon Master. There is some serious incoherence and self-contradiction going on to suggest he only ever intended boys and men to play—even though he wrote in 1978, and even a fair number of women are counted among those who regularly play the game—and baked these prejudices into the game but then to insist the term could not possibly have any such implications.
All the more reason I should be using the term - I hope it makes him spin in his grave so hard, he suffers vertigo in whatever afterlife he's found himself. Being a woman and all.
It's not a stupid question, and certainly I'm open to hearing from anyone who finds it distressing.
I personally, don't find Master to be problematic in this context. Master, implying expertise and leadership, can be used for someone of any gender. You can address a woman as Master.
Mistress, on the other hand, certainly is gendered, does not imply expertise, and while it can imply authority, it usually does so in the context or delegation of a man.
I don't like the substitution of "referee" because I don't think that captures what a game master does. Maybe "Leader" would work.
All the more reason I should be using the term - I hope it makes him spin in his grave so hard, he suffers vertigo in whatever afterlife he's found himself. Being a woman and all.
When Kelsey Dionne met Gary Gygax in person he told her she would make a great DM and this inspired her to do just that and to ultimately become a designer in her own right and she has nothing but the nicest things to say about the man and she like you is a woman and all. She is also queer.
So I am not so sure he is going to be spinning in his grave about much of anything other than how many newer players are consumed by hatred for him but choose to play a game that would not even exist without his contributions.
Professor Dungeon Master said it best: We would not even be here were it not for him and Arneson and others who made it happen. We would be doing something else. Playing something else. But not playing a game Wizards might own but did not invent.
And as someone else has pointed out these are people are literally saved the lives of many disaffected youth in the 70s and 80s.
People here will routinely talk about how sexist it is for rulebooks to use male pronouns.
Your entire premise is flawed. See if you can figure out what word you left out of the quoted text above
But of course, you're "just asking questions", right?
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It's not a stupid question, and certainly I'm open to hearing from anyone who finds it distressing.
I personally, don't find Master to be problematic in this context. Master, implying expertise and leadership, can be used for someone of any gender. You can address a woman as Master.
Mistress, on the other hand, certainly is gendered, does not imply expertise, and while it can imply authority, it usually does so in the context or delegation of a man.
I don't like the substitution of "referee" because I don't think that captures what a game master does. Maybe "Leader" would work.
"Leader" works. And I like it because the one in the role could be said to be the leader of not only the game but also of the group that is playing that game.
"Referee" fits if perhaps for an older playstyle. The term occurs and reoccurs constantly throughout those old AD&D manuals. As the DM then is there to arbitrate and the rules are secondary to his or her decisions. It is then much more of a strategy game with players devising ways to get beyond certain obstacles or creatures often independent of the rules and then the DM deciding how it goes. That's refereeing.
The term also appears in the 2014 PHB. Along with "lead storyteller."
Whether or not it does in the 2024 PHB or DMG I couldn't say as I am yet to pick either up.
I like the term because it is a game. And the term "referee" sounds to me fitting for someone adjudicating a game.
Your entire premise is flawed. See if you can figure out what word you left out of the quoted text above
But of course, you're "just asking questions", right?
Enlighten me. Not only of what this word is I left out. But of what my premise is. Only the other day someone was talking about how the old rulebooks used "he" and "him" throughout and how this was sexist. Which is a fair enough assessment.
What is my premise?
That you use the term out of habit or out of tradition?
That you like the term and so will persist using it?
That's right. I am just asking questions to know why it is you use the term when there are arguments to be made against it.
I have to ask though, are there actually people offended by this? Or is this looking for something to protect them against? I'm happy for things to change if something makes them feel uncomfortable...but I'm not comfortable with telling people they should be offended by something.
For context, there was a controversy on the term "master" with GitHub some years back. Short and simple explanation, no technical knowledge needed, the default branch name when creating a repository was the master branch. (Where you want to keep all your good working software code.) There was a kerfuffle with some people saying "master" was reminiscent of slavery. So GitHub changed the default name from master to main. (For further context: users could still edit their personal preferences to change the default name back to master or whatever other word they wanted.)
So the word "master" being considered offensive by some isn't unprecedented. But at the same time, from what I've seen, it was also a significant minority that thought it needed to be changed. And if the replies/voting here so far are any indicator, I think the same would hold true in the D&D community with the vast majority of people not taking offense to the term Dungeon Master.
EDIT: For further thoughts, WotC has also been very driven to not offend people and trying to avoid racist/etc terminology.* Race was changed to species. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves were not reprinted. When the community criticized the Hadozee lore/imagery, they changed it and removed the Hadozee bard depiction. So if they had any voices telling them that the term Dungeon Master was offensive, I would expect them to have already changed it.
*I'm not interested in debating any of the examples I've given here. My point is merely to show that when they've perceived something as racist, they've changed it.
Note that there arguments for replacing the term DM which have nothing to do with whether it's a gendered term. Most notably, the fact that actual 'dungeons' are pretty rare in modern D&D. Also, the term 'master' may not be the most accurate term for the actual role of the DM in a game.
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I am curious to know people's thoughts on why it is they figure the term master, a term that is both gendered and has more than a few negative connotations provided its less than pleasant history, has remained.
People here will routinely talk about how sexist it is for rulebooks to use male pronouns. So why does a word as gendered as master and particularly given it is given to the person at the head of the table then get to remain?
People here will routinely talk about the importance of achieving both inclusivity and sensitivity. So why has the word master not been replaced like it has in many other industries because of its implications?
I use the gender-neutral referee at my table. (As does the version of the game I am currently using.)
How about others?
What are people's thoughts on the term Dungeon Master?
Is it purely out of tradition that many refuse to let it go?
Why would it not have been replaced by now?
Master is only a gendered noun in the specific use case of a head of household, which does not apply to D&D.
Master can mean teacher or one with a certain threshold level of expertise in a skill i.e. master crafter. I don't know if it retains a gendered nature in those instances.
Then again, I'm not the sort to mind if it does.
I'd just as easily call a female DM Dungeon Mistress if that is what she prefers.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Personally, I don't really care. So long as it's something easy to remember, clear and fairly short, then it doesn't bother me much what we call them. I doubt that it'll be quick to change, half the industry calls them Dungeon Masters, three quarters of what's left calls them Game's Masters, then most of what's left calls them some variation on that (eg TOR calls them Lore Masters). That'll be a hard change, especially since I don't think most people even have any issue with it. Master is used for a lot of things and, to my feel of it, doesn't even really have much tie to gender. Women can get Master's Degrees just as, well, I wouldn't necessarily describe it as easily per se, but with the same amount of effort as men.
I have to ask though, are there actually people offended by this? Or is this looking for something to protect them against? I'm happy for things to change if something makes them feel uncomfortable...but I'm not comfortable with telling people they should be offended by something.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I'll be honest, I wouldn't want to call someone a Dungeon Mistress...that has connotations that go way beyond rolling a few dice! My wife maybe, but it'd have to be a different term for anyone else...
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That is not true. Among its many meanings are a term for a boy not yet old enough to qualify as a Mr. , a man with servants or slaves, a man occupying any role of authority, a male teacher, ...
A master can simply mean anyone who has mastered something. Or who has mastery over something.
I believe these are its implied meanings in the context of D&D. Because the DM has mastered and has mastery over the rules.
But can we at least have an honest discussion and not mar the discussion with claims that something as simple as a dictionary can show to be untrue?
It's only D&D that uses the term Dungeon Master. At least on paper. Because it is trademarked. All other games use game master or some other term. Not even clones of D&D use the term Dungeon Master.
Yea, and D&S is like half the market. Your complaint seems to be based around the word Master, and many games use it.
What's your point?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have simply asked what others think. Sure. Many games do use the word "master." My original post says I use referee. But I'm not at all "complaining" about the use of "master." I am asking what people's thoughts are on the term. If it's purely out of tradition why they use the term.
I have played D&D with people over the years who have come from other games and who use the term game master out of habit. Whether or not it contains the word "master" isn't really the point there: people seem to use the term out of tradition or out of habit. But one would think given some of the negative connotations of the word—you yourself have mentioned those of the word "mistress"—it might have been changed by now.
EDIT: With regard to the word "mistress," many of the same implications come with the word "master." As anyone who has spent any real time in certain underground scenes would know. "mistress" is, however, also commonly used for women in authority roles in educational or religious institutions. It's not all "bad."
ok, some odds and ends.
Dungeon Master is a trademark of Hasbro, part of the purchase of assets originally developed and created by TSR, which initially trademarked the term and successfully defended it on at least one occasion.
it is, therefore, intellectual property of value and importance, both economic and historic, in addition to having a cultural cache that provides a significant degree of weight to the term.
A Dungeon Master is someone who acts as the referee, narrator, and other aspects of the principal player for the game Dungeons and Dragons.
Back in the old days, a few other games tried to call their GM's DMs, and got slapped on the wrist for it.
Next, "master" has a different degree of gendered structure in relation to the specific use of the term within its context. A Master of Fine Arts or a Master of Psychology are not gendered forms of address, for example. However, the use of the term in relation to property and in use as a form of address is indeed a gendered term.
Many forms of gendered address are such, but the term is not a form of address, merely a description of a role that encompasses multiple tasks -- organizer, narrator, referee, planner, designer, and so forth.
it is the only term that applies to that role within the game itself, and is not, inherently gendered in and of itself, any more than a Doctor would be -- which is why so many other games and the term in general remain Game Master.
As for the use of Mistress, yes you may, and I do expect it, and there will be punishment should you fail to use the proper term.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
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just no
dont have any... a dungeon master is a dungeon master
is it purely out of modernism that some wish it to be change??
because there is no need to replace it...
I would agree that this is the purpose of whoever occupies the role. And agree with pretty much everything else you said.
But it is Gygax who is credited with having come up with the term Dungeon Master. There is some serious incoherence and self-contradiction going on to suggest he only ever intended boys and men to play—even though he wrote in 1978, and even a fair number of women are counted among those who regularly play the game—and baked these prejudices into the game but then to insist the term could not possibly have any such implications.
We all know what it means in the context of D&D and other such games. We also know that there needs to be a symbiotic connection between Player and DM. Furthermore, every table I've participated, we've used character names for RP and first names for everything else - including the DM.
All the more reason I should be using the term - I hope it makes him spin in his grave so hard, he suffers vertigo in whatever afterlife he's found himself. Being a woman and all.
It's not a stupid question, and certainly I'm open to hearing from anyone who finds it distressing.
I personally, don't find Master to be problematic in this context. Master, implying expertise and leadership, can be used for someone of any gender. You can address a woman as Master.
Mistress, on the other hand, certainly is gendered, does not imply expertise, and while it can imply authority, it usually does so in the context or delegation of a man.
I don't like the substitution of "referee" because I don't think that captures what a game master does. Maybe "Leader" would work.
When Kelsey Dionne met Gary Gygax in person he told her she would make a great DM and this inspired her to do just that and to ultimately become a designer in her own right and she has nothing but the nicest things to say about the man and she like you is a woman and all. She is also queer.
So I am not so sure he is going to be spinning in his grave about much of anything other than how many newer players are consumed by hatred for him but choose to play a game that would not even exist without his contributions.
Professor Dungeon Master said it best: We would not even be here were it not for him and Arneson and others who made it happen. We would be doing something else. Playing something else. But not playing a game Wizards might own but did not invent.
And as someone else has pointed out these are people are literally saved the lives of many disaffected youth in the 70s and 80s.
That is no small thing.
Your entire premise is flawed. See if you can figure out what word you left out of the quoted text above
But of course, you're "just asking questions", right?
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"Leader" works. And I like it because the one in the role could be said to be the leader of not only the game but also of the group that is playing that game.
"Referee" fits if perhaps for an older playstyle. The term occurs and reoccurs constantly throughout those old AD&D manuals. As the DM then is there to arbitrate and the rules are secondary to his or her decisions. It is then much more of a strategy game with players devising ways to get beyond certain obstacles or creatures often independent of the rules and then the DM deciding how it goes. That's refereeing.
The term also appears in the 2014 PHB. Along with "lead storyteller."
Whether or not it does in the 2024 PHB or DMG I couldn't say as I am yet to pick either up.
I like the term because it is a game. And the term "referee" sounds to me fitting for someone adjudicating a game.
Enlighten me. Not only of what this word is I left out. But of what my premise is. Only the other day someone was talking about how the old rulebooks used "he" and "him" throughout and how this was sexist. Which is a fair enough assessment.
What is my premise?
That you use the term out of habit or out of tradition?
That you like the term and so will persist using it?
That's right. I am just asking questions to know why it is you use the term when there are arguments to be made against it.
For context, there was a controversy on the term "master" with GitHub some years back. Short and simple explanation, no technical knowledge needed, the default branch name when creating a repository was the master branch. (Where you want to keep all your good working software code.) There was a kerfuffle with some people saying "master" was reminiscent of slavery. So GitHub changed the default name from master to main. (For further context: users could still edit their personal preferences to change the default name back to master or whatever other word they wanted.)
So the word "master" being considered offensive by some isn't unprecedented. But at the same time, from what I've seen, it was also a significant minority that thought it needed to be changed. And if the replies/voting here so far are any indicator, I think the same would hold true in the D&D community with the vast majority of people not taking offense to the term Dungeon Master.
EDIT: For further thoughts, WotC has also been very driven to not offend people and trying to avoid racist/etc terminology.* Race was changed to species. Half-Orcs and Half-Elves were not reprinted. When the community criticized the Hadozee lore/imagery, they changed it and removed the Hadozee bard depiction. So if they had any voices telling them that the term Dungeon Master was offensive, I would expect them to have already changed it.
*I'm not interested in debating any of the examples I've given here. My point is merely to show that when they've perceived something as racist, they've changed it.
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Note that there arguments for replacing the term DM which have nothing to do with whether it's a gendered term. Most notably, the fact that actual 'dungeons' are pretty rare in modern D&D. Also, the term 'master' may not be the most accurate term for the actual role of the DM in a game.