We were fighting a 15 ft tall enemy so I wanted to target my Fireball above the enemy's head so I could miss my party member in melee with the bad guy. I have been gaming for 30+ years and have done this many times. However this GM said I could not do that. The Fireball's target "point" had to be a real point not an imaginary point in the air. Is that a popular interpretation? The spell says you target a point not a creature or object like some other spells. Before anyone says the GM is always right I am asking this question just to find out how it is played at other tables. This is the way it is played at this table so I will play it that way.
I will also add, since you asked whether your GM's interpretation was a popular one: in my experience, no. The rules explicitly say it doesn't work that way (as R3sistance pointed out) and I've never heard any GM or player try to argue that it does. Your GM's interpretation strikes me as bizarre and incoherent, though I would not recommend expressing it to them in quite those terms.
The Fireball's target "point" had to be a real point not an imaginary point in the air.
There are so many things wrong there, I'm not quite sure where to begin
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As a DM, it's an annoying fact that you can do this.
Still, you can do it and I'll accept it as fair-play, so long as there's space (if you're in a room with ceilings, I may decide that affects the shape of the Fireball 😉). Just remember...whatever you can do, I can do better! 😄
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
We were fighting a 15 ft tall enemy so I wanted to target my Fireball above the enemy's head so I could miss my party member in melee with the bad guy. I have been gaming for 30+ years and have done this many times. However this GM said I could not do that. The Fireball's target "point" had to be a real point not an imaginary point in the air. Is that a popular interpretation? The spell says you target a point not a creature or object like some other spells. Before anyone says the GM is always right I am asking this question just to find out how it is played at other tables. This is the way it is played at this table so I will play it that way.
Your DM is wrong, but at the same time, you may be too, depending on the explicit location of the PC in melee with the target. You are venturing into 3D geometry here, but given the radius of the Fireball is 20 feet, aiming it immediately above the target's head might still catch the PC in the blast zone. We use 2D physical templates at our table, and I bring a ruler for a lot of the less obvious results, like sphere blast zones, like this one. That being said, this math is trivial compared to 1e where a fireball has a static volume that will expand to fill the volume of the combat zone.
For fireball: you can position the sphere however you want in space within range so long as you have line of sight. No reason why you can’t do a midair detonation to hit a smaller area on the ground, you can certainly shoot flying creatures with it. There are rules for how much of the 5ft cube that a creature occupies needs to be filled by the spell’s AoE to have an effect on the target, pretty sure you just need to fill more than half https://vidmate****/ .
As others have pointed out it’s perfectly legal to aim for a point in space not an object or individual. There are some caveats to keep in mind however. First and foremost is that the fireball fills its space going around edges etc. the base volume is a sphere 40’ across so you need a room 40x40x40 to hold it or it starts spreading into adjacent areas. That sphere is just over 25,000 cubic feet in volume , your standard? 30x30x10 ft room has a volume of 9000 cubic feet so your fireball would fill most of 3 such rooms. Let it loose in a 10w by 10h corridor it’s going to shoot up and down that corridor for 125 feet and no one in that space except the two end spots should be getting Dex saves as there is no where to dodge to. ( if I’m going into confined spaces I tend to take lightning bolt instead - it may ricochet but that can generally be accounted for.)
As others have pointed out it’s perfectly legal to aim for a point in space not an object or individual. There are some caveats to keep in mind however. First and foremost is that the fireball fills its space going around edges etc. the base volume is a sphere 40’ across so you need a room 40x40x40 to hold it or it starts spreading into adjacent areas. That sphere is just over 25,000 cubic feet in volume , your standard? 30x30x10 ft room has a volume of 9000 cubic feet so your fireball would fill most of 3 such rooms. Let it loose in a 10w by 10h corridor it’s going to shoot up and down that corridor for 125 feet and no one in that space except the two end spots should be getting Dex saves as there is no where to dodge to. ( if I’m going into confined spaces I tend to take lightning bolt instead - it may ricochet but that can generally be accounted for.)
The 2024 version of fireball actually ditched the "goes around corners" language
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As others have pointed out it’s perfectly legal to aim for a point in space not an object or individual. There are some caveats to keep in mind however. First and foremost is that the fireball fills its space going around edges etc. the base volume is a sphere 40’ across so you need a room 40x40x40 to hold it or it starts spreading into adjacent areas. That sphere is just over 25,000 cubic feet in volume , your standard? 30x30x10 ft room has a volume of 9000 cubic feet so your fireball would fill most of 3 such rooms. Let it loose in a 10w by 10h corridor it’s going to shoot up and down that corridor for 125 feet and no one in that space except the two end spots should be getting Dex saves as there is no where to dodge to. ( if I’m going into confined spaces I tend to take lightning bolt instead - it may ricochet but that can generally be accounted for.)
The 2024 version of fireball actually ditched the "goes around corners" language
Even with the "goes around corners" language, the 2014 fireball didn't do the volume thing. It roasted a 20-foot radius sphere, even if corners were involved.
I don't think the "surprise! you fireballed the party!" fireball has been the case since 2e.
As others have pointed out it’s perfectly legal to aim for a point in space not an object or individual. There are some caveats to keep in mind however. First and foremost is that the fireball fills its space going around edges etc. the base volume is a sphere 40’ across so you need a room 40x40x40 to hold it or it starts spreading into adjacent areas. That sphere is just over 25,000 cubic feet in volume , your standard? 30x30x10 ft room has a volume of 9000 cubic feet so your fireball would fill most of 3 such rooms. Let it loose in a 10w by 10h corridor it’s going to shoot up and down that corridor for 125 feet and no one in that space except the two end spots should be getting Dex saves as there is no where to dodge to. ( if I’m going into confined spaces I tend to take lightning bolt instead - it may ricochet but that can generally be accounted for.)
The 2024 version of fireball actually ditched the "goes around corners" language
Even with the "goes around corners" language, the 2014 fireball didn't do the volume thing. It roasted a 20-foot radius sphere, even if corners were involved.
I don't think the "surprise! you fireballed the party!" fireball has been the case since 2e.
We were fighting a 15 ft tall enemy so I wanted to target my Fireball above the enemy's head so I could miss my party member in melee with the bad guy. I have been gaming for 30+ years and have done this many times. However this GM said I could not do that. The Fireball's target "point" had to be a real point not an imaginary point in the air. Is that a popular interpretation? The spell says you target a point not a creature or object like some other spells. Before anyone says the GM is always right I am asking this question just to find out how it is played at other tables. This is the way it is played at this table so I will play it that way.
Let me ask you this, what if you are in an environment that has no ground? Are all points imaginary or real? Should you lose the ability to use fireball because there isn't any ground? Your DM needs to think in 3d not 2d.
if itw ere me DM-ing: oh yeah, placing a fireball in mid-air is totally a valid use of that spell; ditto any spell that says "target a point" rather than specific target creature/Object etc... However: ti IS a sphere; ergo: you might have to do some math; since the higher up it is, the smaller an area at ground level it would cover.
Sabin, that’s really my point, the volume is actually quite large - it will just fit in a 40 x 40 x 40 room. The formula for the volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r cubed r is 20’. So 20. X 20 x 20 x 3.14 x 1.33 =33,409.6 cubic feet even more than I calculated initially ( I forgot the 4/3s - just looked it up and discovered my mistake) a room 30 x 30 x10 =9,000 cubic feet so just over 3 such rooms and forget the hall - the problem is with us and our play - we ( yes me included much of the time) don’t actually do the math with the 2014 (or 2024). As for the 2024 ok it doesn’t go around corners but it’s sure going to blast through open doors/windows/etc and go shooting down halls if can. So figure a cone from any opening with a fairly long area of effect depending on where the center point is. It’s not an indoor spell - really strictly for outdoor use. What I really want is an upgraded Melf’s meteors - each does more damage but only in a 5’ radius sphere ( 10’ by 10’ by 10’ sphere). Guess I’ll have to homebrew that one too.
We were fighting a 15 ft tall enemy so I wanted to target my Fireball above the enemy's head so I could miss my party member in melee with the bad guy. I have been gaming for 30+ years and have done this many times. However this GM said I could not do that. The Fireball's target "point" had to be a real point not an imaginary point in the air. Is that a popular interpretation? The spell says you target a point not a creature or object like some other spells. Before anyone says the GM is always right I am asking this question just to find out how it is played at other tables. This is the way it is played at this table so I will play it that way.
Michael Pierce
The only restriction on the target point is line of sight, creating a fireball above a creature's head is perfectly valid.
EDIT: relevant PHB sections:
Spell Targets
PHB: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/spells#Targets
Free Rules 2024: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/spells#Targets
Area of Effect
PHB 2024: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/rules-glossary#AreaofEffect
Free Rules 2024: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/rules-glossary#AreaofEffect
I will also add, since you asked whether your GM's interpretation was a popular one: in my experience, no. The rules explicitly say it doesn't work that way (as R3sistance pointed out) and I've never heard any GM or player try to argue that it does. Your GM's interpretation strikes me as bizarre and incoherent, though I would not recommend expressing it to them in quite those terms.
There are so many things wrong there, I'm not quite sure where to begin
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I assume there was enough room above the target to place it as you wanted: was there a ceiling or similar in the way?
As a DM, it's an annoying fact that you can do this.
Still, you can do it and I'll accept it as fair-play, so long as there's space (if you're in a room with ceilings, I may decide that affects the shape of the Fireball 😉). Just remember...whatever you can do, I can do better! 😄
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Your DM is wrong, but at the same time, you may be too, depending on the explicit location of the PC in melee with the target. You are venturing into 3D geometry here, but given the radius of the Fireball is 20 feet, aiming it immediately above the target's head might still catch the PC in the blast zone. We use 2D physical templates at our table, and I bring a ruler for a lot of the less obvious results, like sphere blast zones, like this one. That being said, this math is trivial compared to 1e where a fireball has a static volume that will expand to fill the volume of the combat zone.
For fireball: you can position the sphere however you want in space within range so long as you have line of sight. No reason why you can’t do a midair detonation to hit a smaller area on the ground, you can certainly shoot flying creatures with it. There are rules for how much of the 5ft cube that a creature occupies needs to be filled by the spell’s AoE to have an effect on the target, pretty sure you just need to fill more than half https://vidmate****/ .
As others have pointed out it’s perfectly legal to aim for a point in space not an object or individual. There are some caveats to keep in mind however. First and foremost is that the fireball fills its space going around edges etc. the base volume is a sphere 40’ across so you need a room 40x40x40 to hold it or it starts spreading into adjacent areas. That sphere is just over 25,000 cubic feet in volume , your standard? 30x30x10 ft room has a volume of 9000 cubic feet so your fireball would fill most of 3 such rooms. Let it loose in a 10w by 10h corridor it’s going to shoot up and down that corridor for 125 feet and no one in that space except the two end spots should be getting Dex saves as there is no where to dodge to. ( if I’m going into confined spaces I tend to take lightning bolt instead - it may ricochet but that can generally be accounted for.)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The 2024 version of fireball actually ditched the "goes around corners" language
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thank the gods for small favors
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
no we were outdoors so plenty of room
Michael Pierce
You can technically do a lot of crazy things with aoe shapes. For example, if you rotate a cube, you can get an extra ~1.73 distance multiplier.
You are winning the game. Good job! Oh wait...
Even with the "goes around corners" language, the 2014 fireball didn't do the volume thing. It roasted a 20-foot radius sphere, even if corners were involved.
I don't think the "surprise! you fireballed the party!" fireball has been the case since 2e.
...unless you had a WM sorcerer in your party!
Let me ask you this, what if you are in an environment that has no ground? Are all points imaginary or real? Should you lose the ability to use fireball because there isn't any ground? Your DM needs to think in 3d not 2d.
if itw ere me DM-ing: oh yeah, placing a fireball in mid-air is totally a valid use of that spell; ditto any spell that says "target a point" rather than specific target creature/Object etc... However: ti IS a sphere; ergo: you might have to do some math; since the higher up it is, the smaller an area at ground level it would cover.
Sabin, that’s really my point, the volume is actually quite large - it will just fit in a 40 x 40 x 40 room. The formula for the volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r cubed r is 20’. So 20. X 20 x 20 x 3.14 x 1.33 =33,409.6 cubic feet even more than I calculated initially ( I forgot the 4/3s - just looked it up and discovered my mistake) a room 30 x 30 x10 =9,000 cubic feet so just over 3 such rooms and forget the hall - the problem is with us and our play - we ( yes me included much of the time) don’t actually do the math with the 2014 (or 2024). As for the 2024 ok it doesn’t go around corners but it’s sure going to blast through open doors/windows/etc and go shooting down halls if can. So figure a cone from any opening with a fairly long area of effect depending on where the center point is. It’s not an indoor spell - really strictly for outdoor use. What I really want is an upgraded Melf’s meteors - each does more damage but only in a 5’ radius sphere ( 10’ by 10’ by 10’ sphere). Guess I’ll have to homebrew that one too.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes you can. I do this quite regularly.
now be glad you aren’t in 1e and having to figure out volumes.
I've targeted fireball above the ground before....if I'm not playing an evoker. :)
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.