I also think that D&D players tend to be more 'nerds'/social outcasts and are therefore more accepting of others that don't tend to fit in.
Ooh, I wouldn't say that, not at all. I've found certain sections of the gamer community to be rabidly prejudiced. Sexism, though, is by far the most prevalent thing I've witnessed in gaming circles; it's changing now, with a younger generation coming into the fold, but it's still most definitely there, spurred on by things like Gamergate and 4chan neo-Nazi and incel culture.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Is there a higher number of LGTBQ people playing D&D compared to the rest of society, or just more people coming out of the closet than before with a more inclusive culture?
Maybe it's because I'm from a pretty hyper liberal city, I would say that I haven't seen any prejudice at any game table I've ever sat at since 1995. The only thing that can be a hurdle is language, though race isn't a factor, just if you can speak one language or the other. Sexism I've also never seen. I have seen a good looking girl sit down at a table, or walk into a store and naturally half the guys gravitate towards her, like moths to a flame... so I guess that is a form of misogyne, and can obviously make a girl uncomfortable, but it's not done with malicious intent.... I have also seen DMs/Players baby female players giving them a lot more leeway then they would afford male players, also an example of subtle sexism (it's a stretch).... but that's about it.
It's important, as it is in all aspects in life, to treat all players equally... since you know... they are equal....
Personally I'm straight and never had any problem with gay people (other person's preferences do not affect my life) but... I believe that's not like that for everyone.
In many other things (games, sports and whatnot) the established status quo has a frame of mind that often blocks different minded people, I believe DnD's "put yourself in your character's shoes" actually helps in this factor, since we are experiencing the life of very different persons (characters) from us, we may as well lose many of the society's taboos and therefore end up being a more welcoming space for the lgbt+ community (and other somewhat oddly seen by society comunities) than many others (for example football where you'd be simply supposed to be an icon of the male image, strong and straight).
As to why a lot of LGBTI play RPGs, mayhap that the community is a bit more accepting, apart from the few toxic communities out there, and people can be themselves, or something different and no one really cares as we are all on an adventure together.
I am now imagining a succubus - physically beautiful and unnaturally attractive and such the fragile little girl who needs to be saved from everything until …. bam ….. one day when you least expect it, she is going to such the life energy right out of you and leave you a dried up husk.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I think it's a bit of a sampling error because we gays tend to clump together for protection. I can count the number of cis/het friends I have on one hand. So of course my DnD games are hella gay because most of my buddies are hella gay.
That being said, I think there is a draw for trans/questioning people in particular because you can play around with gender via your characters. (Speaking from personal experience here.)
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"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
I'm not sure the lords of hella would appreciate the sentement though lol
Just teasing, just teasing.
I am honestly surprised that being gay is still even commented on. I mean really, in this day and age. It makes me almost sad that people still want to put others into boxes based upon their sexuality or gender.
That is such a 50s attitude that needs to stop and at my tables everyone is welcome.no matter who they are. Being gay or being anything just isn't seen as an issue because we are all the same - we are all just people.
Messy,.complicated, lovely people.
Who cares if your gay or bisexual or transgender or any of the other more recent little little boxes - pansexual, gender fluid or whatever.
What matters is being a good person and not what you identify as or who you are in a relationship with.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I'm 55 and have been playing since the White Box edition, kind of crossing over from early wargames. I also have lived in the SF Bay Area most of my life. Through Jr. High. High School, the Army, Texas, Germany, I have run into players and DMs of all walks of life. D&D is a very inclusive atmosphere and usually the only disassociation in D&D that I have ever experienced is when DMs and/or players just don't mesh. It's usually a player who, for whatever reason, just doesn't like the type of campaign being run, whether it be setting or style.
It's commented upon now because in the past it either 1) wasn't commented upon at all (so it was like we didn't exist at all), or 2) commented upon only negatively. Both of those suck, so we're making up for it by commenting on it positively today. For the longest time only heterosexual stories were portrayed in the media - including DnD campaigns - but now we're able to claim the space that was denied us in the past. We're pretty excited about that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
In addition to what Nat_30 says, because there is still societal oppression against LGBTQIA* folks (particularly trans/intersex individuals, since lesbian, gay, and to a lesser extent bisexual, people have been somewhat accepted by society) it's important for folks to develop queer communities and talk about their identities with one another and with folks who aren't LGBTQ to gain potential allies. I always bristle a little when someone says something like "well why does it even matter?" or "why do we even have to talk about it?" The reason it matters is that people are still getting beat up and killed for being gay and/or trans, people are being denied basic rights, etc. It's like when someone says "race doesn't matter." Well, actually, it does matter, because racism is a real thing that exists and not talking about race doesn't make it go away.
I don't mean to get all serious but it seems to kind of keep coming up. I think that "I just see you as a human" is great in theory, but I'd rather it be "I see you as a human, and all of the aspects of your identity are valid and important in making you who you are and I will treat you with dignity" is better.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I'd say that RPGs offer a safe social space for everyone, and that's not always a luxury that LGBTQ folks have in their lives.
EDIT: a safe societal space providing you have a tolerant group. To say that homophobia, etc. is now over would be absurd. There will always be ignorance, or people who are actively hostile to the eldritch horror of people who don't 'fit the mold'.
This is interesting. I was unaware that the US had such a big problem with this kind of thing and I wonder if there are wider cultural issues that are not the root cause of the things you talk about but either way; I will admit, I am somewhat confused and I am honestly not sure why you say things like:
I always bristle a little when someone says something like "well why does it even matter?" or "why do we even have to talk about it?"
I am confused because a persons sexuality or preferred or chosen gender or even lack of any sexuality or gender, really doesn't matter to me. They are still a person regardless and a person is a person. Suggesting that they are treated differently because of some aspect of their identity is rather absurd to me. From my perspective, if I am friends with someone who identifies differently to myself, then how they identify really does make no difference and I treat them no differently to any of the people I love or care about.
Even I they are just passing strangers who have come to my D&D session - how they identify still does not matter to me and I treat them no differently to how I treat any other person I might meet in this or any other circumstance. I treat them like a person.
As to your other point - talking about it. Why would anybody; regardless of how they identify, need to talk about their view of self anymore than is necessary. If someone is gay or lesbian for example and they are talking about their boyfriend or girlfriend then I would expect them to say "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" (or husband and wife as the case may be) just like any heterosexual person would. There is no need to enter into some big discussion about how they are gay or lesbian and the same is true for those who identify as a different gender or have no specific gender but prefer a particular pronoun.
If I say he or she for example and I have referred to the person with the incorrect pronoun, I would expect to be corrected. I would expect the person or the people I was talking to, to say actually I/they are male or female - as the case maybe and then I will correct my pronouns in the future. There is no need to delve into some big deep conversation because Ii just doesn't matter. It doesn't make that person any less than a person and it doesn't change my attitudes towards or opinions of them.
When you talk about people getting assaulted or murdered or whatever, then we have laws in our society that say those things are wrong. They are not wrong based on sexuality or gender or the lack there of, they are just wrong because its wrong to assault or murder anybody - it doesn't matter who they are.
I can only speak for myself but I personally think if everyone took this approach, there would be no issue. No it might not correct the problem right now but in time, as new generations are exposed to such attitudes or opinions, things would change. As they have already begun to do. Neverwinter was not built in a day - it takes time for any great and worthy thing to gain permanence in this world.
Ugh I think this is getting to complex for a forum discussion. Especially since I have pretty much diverged quite a bit from the original intent of the discussion. So maybe I should just end this off here and pray to Pelor that you understand what I have been rambling about LOL.
PS: I know you were not addressing me personally in you reply. I have just spoken as myself because I am the only person whom I can truly and accurately represent. Or at least try to anyway LOL.
I think you're right that this is too complex a discussion for a forum. I would just suggest that you check out this report and this rundown of historical violence against LGBTQ people. I am not saying that violence against LGBTQ people is more wrong than other violence necessarily, but I am saying that it occurs at a disproportionately higher rate compared to the rest of the population. So it does, in fact, matter "who they are." And you're right that it'd be great if everyone just saw everyone else as humans, but unfortunately, that's not the world we live in right now and pretending it is isn't going to get us there.
Have a wonderful day.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Indeed - SocialFoxes, I don't think we're in the bizniss of lynching you. There are a lot of positive perspectives on this matter, many of which can be gelled together without to much skullduggery, and plenty of viewpoints that reflect our own experiences.
Of course, invoking Pelor in a public forum is truly unacceptable ;-)
Ooh, I wouldn't say that, not at all. I've found certain sections of the gamer community to be rabidly prejudiced. Sexism, though, is by far the most prevalent thing I've witnessed in gaming circles; it's changing now, with a younger generation coming into the fold, but it's still most definitely there, spurred on by things like Gamergate and 4chan neo-Nazi and incel culture.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Is there a higher number of LGTBQ people playing D&D compared to the rest of society, or just more people coming out of the closet than before with a more inclusive culture?
Maybe it's because I'm from a pretty hyper liberal city, I would say that I haven't seen any prejudice at any game table I've ever sat at since 1995. The only thing that can be a hurdle is language, though race isn't a factor, just if you can speak one language or the other. Sexism I've also never seen. I have seen a good looking girl sit down at a table, or walk into a store and naturally half the guys gravitate towards her, like moths to a flame... so I guess that is a form of misogyne, and can obviously make a girl uncomfortable, but it's not done with malicious intent.... I have also seen DMs/Players baby female players giving them a lot more leeway then they would afford male players, also an example of subtle sexism (it's a stretch).... but that's about it.
It's important, as it is in all aspects in life, to treat all players equally... since you know... they are equal....
I'm straight, but whether you or anyone else is or not doesn't have any particular relevance to me :)
I want to play the game and have fun. The sexuality of those at the table is not going to change that at all for me.
Personally I'm straight and never had any problem with gay people (other person's preferences do not affect my life) but... I believe that's not like that for everyone.
In many other things (games, sports and whatnot) the established status quo has a frame of mind that often blocks different minded people, I believe DnD's "put yourself in your character's shoes" actually helps in this factor, since we are experiencing the life of very different persons (characters) from us, we may as well lose many of the society's taboos and therefore end up being a more welcoming space for the lgbt+ community (and other somewhat oddly seen by society comunities) than many others (for example football where you'd be simply supposed to be an icon of the male image, strong and straight).
I didn't think of that before, good perspective on this!
I am a foreign national living in the Philippines and they recently had a female and LGBTI D&D event https://www.mynila.com/events/lacunacon-a-tabletop-event-for-women-lgbt/, personally I though it was pretty cool, need more diversity in the hobby I love.
As to why a lot of LGBTI play RPGs, mayhap that the community is a bit more accepting, apart from the few toxic communities out there, and people can be themselves, or something different and no one really cares as we are all on an adventure together.
I am now imagining a succubus - physically beautiful and unnaturally attractive and such the fragile little girl who needs to be saved from everything until …. bam ….. one day when you least expect it, she is going to such the life energy right out of you and leave you a dried up husk.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I'm not sure how that is related to this thread or appropriate. What am I missing?
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I think it's a bit of a sampling error because we gays tend to clump together for protection. I can count the number of cis/het friends I have on one hand. So of course my DnD games are hella gay because most of my buddies are hella gay.
That being said, I think there is a draw for trans/questioning people in particular because you can play around with gender via your characters. (Speaking from personal experience here.)
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
I'm not sure the lords of hella would appreciate the sentement though lol
Just teasing, just teasing.
I am honestly surprised that being gay is still even commented on. I mean really, in this day and age. It makes me almost sad that people still want to put others into boxes based upon their sexuality or gender.
That is such a 50s attitude that needs to stop and at my tables everyone is welcome.no matter who they are. Being gay or being anything just isn't seen as an issue because we are all the same - we are all just people.
Messy,.complicated, lovely people.
Who cares if your gay or bisexual or transgender or any of the other more recent little little boxes - pansexual, gender fluid or whatever.
What matters is being a good person and not what you identify as or who you are in a relationship with.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I'm 55 and have been playing since the White Box edition, kind of crossing over from early wargames. I also have lived in the SF Bay Area most of my life. Through Jr. High. High School, the Army, Texas, Germany, I have run into players and DMs of all walks of life. D&D is a very inclusive atmosphere and usually the only disassociation in D&D that I have ever experienced is when DMs and/or players just don't mesh. It's usually a player who, for whatever reason, just doesn't like the type of campaign being run, whether it be setting or style.
It's commented upon now because in the past it either 1) wasn't commented upon at all (so it was like we didn't exist at all), or 2) commented upon only negatively. Both of those suck, so we're making up for it by commenting on it positively today. For the longest time only heterosexual stories were portrayed in the media - including DnD campaigns - but now we're able to claim the space that was denied us in the past. We're pretty excited about that.
"We're the perfect combination of expendable and unkillable!"
In addition to what Nat_30 says, because there is still societal oppression against LGBTQIA* folks (particularly trans/intersex individuals, since lesbian, gay, and to a lesser extent bisexual, people have been somewhat accepted by society) it's important for folks to develop queer communities and talk about their identities with one another and with folks who aren't LGBTQ to gain potential allies. I always bristle a little when someone says something like "well why does it even matter?" or "why do we even have to talk about it?" The reason it matters is that people are still getting beat up and killed for being gay and/or trans, people are being denied basic rights, etc. It's like when someone says "race doesn't matter." Well, actually, it does matter, because racism is a real thing that exists and not talking about race doesn't make it go away.
I don't mean to get all serious but it seems to kind of keep coming up. I think that "I just see you as a human" is great in theory, but I'd rather it be "I see you as a human, and all of the aspects of your identity are valid and important in making you who you are and I will treat you with dignity" is better.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I'd say that RPGs offer a safe social space for everyone, and that's not always a luxury that LGBTQ folks have in their lives.
EDIT: a safe societal space providing you have a tolerant group. To say that homophobia, etc. is now over would be absurd. There will always be ignorance, or people who are actively hostile to the eldritch horror of people who don't 'fit the mold'.
Is me
This is interesting. I was unaware that the US had such a big problem with this kind of thing and I wonder if there are wider cultural issues that are not the root cause of the things you talk about but either way; I will admit, I am somewhat confused and I am honestly not sure why you say things like:
I am confused because a persons sexuality or preferred or chosen gender or even lack of any sexuality or gender, really doesn't matter to me. They are still a person regardless and a person is a person. Suggesting that they are treated differently because of some aspect of their identity is rather absurd to me. From my perspective, if I am friends with someone who identifies differently to myself, then how they identify really does make no difference and I treat them no differently to any of the people I love or care about.
Even I they are just passing strangers who have come to my D&D session - how they identify still does not matter to me and I treat them no differently to how I treat any other person I might meet in this or any other circumstance. I treat them like a person.
As to your other point - talking about it. Why would anybody; regardless of how they identify, need to talk about their view of self anymore than is necessary. If someone is gay or lesbian for example and they are talking about their boyfriend or girlfriend then I would expect them to say "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" (or husband and wife as the case may be) just like any heterosexual person would. There is no need to enter into some big discussion about how they are gay or lesbian and the same is true for those who identify as a different gender or have no specific gender but prefer a particular pronoun.
If I say he or she for example and I have referred to the person with the incorrect pronoun, I would expect to be corrected. I would expect the person or the people I was talking to, to say actually I/they are male or female - as the case maybe and then I will correct my pronouns in the future. There is no need to delve into some big deep conversation because Ii just doesn't matter. It doesn't make that person any less than a person and it doesn't change my attitudes towards or opinions of them.
When you talk about people getting assaulted or murdered or whatever, then we have laws in our society that say those things are wrong. They are not wrong based on sexuality or gender or the lack there of, they are just wrong because its wrong to assault or murder anybody - it doesn't matter who they are.
I can only speak for myself but I personally think if everyone took this approach, there would be no issue. No it might not correct the problem right now but in time, as new generations are exposed to such attitudes or opinions, things would change. As they have already begun to do. Neverwinter was not built in a day - it takes time for any great and worthy thing to gain permanence in this world.
Ugh I think this is getting to complex for a forum discussion. Especially since I have pretty much diverged quite a bit from the original intent of the discussion. So maybe I should just end this off here and pray to Pelor that you understand what I have been rambling about LOL.
PS: I know you were not addressing me personally in you reply. I have just spoken as myself because I am the only person whom I can truly and accurately represent. Or at least try to anyway LOL.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Oh, wow! 24% of the people who saw this thread identified as LGBT. Compared to the general population's percentages of LGBT peoples, DND is HELLA gay.
Fantastic. :D
Hi SocialFoxes,
I think you're right that this is too complex a discussion for a forum. I would just suggest that you check out this report and this rundown of historical violence against LGBTQ people. I am not saying that violence against LGBTQ people is more wrong than other violence necessarily, but I am saying that it occurs at a disproportionately higher rate compared to the rest of the population. So it does, in fact, matter "who they are." And you're right that it'd be great if everyone just saw everyone else as humans, but unfortunately, that's not the world we live in right now and pretending it is isn't going to get us there.
Have a wonderful day.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Indeed - SocialFoxes, I don't think we're in the bizniss of lynching you. There are a lot of positive perspectives on this matter, many of which can be gelled together without to much skullduggery, and plenty of viewpoints that reflect our own experiences.
Of course, invoking Pelor in a public forum is truly unacceptable ;-)
Is me
Just to chip in: My current group has five people (four players and a DM). I'm the only straight person in the group.
So yeah, this is definitely a thing, and I think Wizards efforts to increase inclusion have paid off.