Unless you have some kind of Homebrew thing, you're DMing for one or two people, or all of your players are noncasters. Just wanted to get those three things out of the way first.
Otherwise, I've noticed this a few common things people seem to have issue with. Issues that I do believe are kinda silly to be having, like getting mad when players use items you gave to them in creative way to make a encounter easier. Speaking of which, magic users have a lot of things like that for encounters involving other mages. Here's what they are and here's a few easy fixes.
"Damn, they used a spell/ability that prevents my villain from using his spell to get away" "His spell/ability cause my mage from doing anything this turn so its two rounds of him getting attacked by 3+ people." "They used their spell/ability to make my encounter a cake walk even though I think this magic boss from this book should be really tough." (This can be used on other Monsters too)
Please stop using mages, these things happens to those Monster types the most. Just give them like a bunch of minions, make the encounter not place in a flat empty battle map, or anything (even DND writers knew to do this with The Pudding King). Having a cool solo humanoid boss casting powerful spells and taking on a large party doesn't work against players who know the game (note:2014 5E version opinion). Better option, use literally any other enemy. In the Basic rules alone there's at least sixty eight monsters, more than half don't rely on magic.
Have them find a way to figure out how to fight an Aboleth who has advantage in water. Woah, I wonder if a Banshee paralysis/grapple immunity could be good for anything as it phases through the bookshelves and attacks your players? Oh wow that Rakshasa has magic immunity that could be good for something as charges at your party full of nothing but wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks? And of course a Dragon. Nothing to add there, I just think even dragons are more interesting than a single mage BBEG.
I just think, both DMs can be more relaxed and players can have more fun with this approach.
Or you could give them Legendary Resistances - the point of which is to keep solo BBEGs somewhat viable by making very hard to make save-or-suck spells hard to stick.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Mages as enemies are fine, but agree that the DM can't just use them as a solo monster and expect anything other than the PCs just walking all over them.
Part of the problem is just the overall issue with 2014 monster CRs and Encounter "Balance" though. The "Mage" has already been previewed for the new 2024 Monster Manual and looks more survivable now (around double the hit points I think). But the CR still needs considering (a standard mage is only CR 6).
But yeah, part of the challenge of a DM is trying to use a monster's abilities and intelligence in a realistic way.
E.g. A mage, being an intelligent opponent, should never get into a situation where they are taking on a party on their own anyway (unless they were egotistically over-confident of course). They would always have minions to wear down their attackers and distract them while they stand in some advantageous position raining down spells. Preferably in a location of their own choosing with cover, traps and so on.
I would also say, though, that as a DM you should never be annoyed when PCs do use their abilities to beat an encounter, especially if they use clever tactics. Its what they're supposed to do! If you expected the encounter to be harder then just learn from the experience and change things up for next time!
Mages as enemies should be control happy monsters; sure you can fireball the crap out of the party, but odds are the party is going to survive that initial burst of damage, rush the mage and if they can make it to melee he's pretty boned.
Instead, the mage should have prepped the environment (an archmage's tower should be an absolute deathtrap for invaders) with spells meant to force the players to waste time and resources thus softening them up followed by him using various spells to divide, confuse and incapacitate them before picking them off.
This post has told you the truth. Throwing a solo mage as your BBEG is very likely to end with a bored party and a very dead BBEG in one or two rounds tops, and that's if the party isn't using homebrewed or 3rd-party content. Some supplements, like Heartleaf Games' The Delver's Guide to Beast World, have abilities that can change the battlefield and flow of battle, like the Vinyotian Celerine's Burst of Silence (long story short, a 5' radius Silence field bound to the user that prevents all sound from passing through). If you haven't found a way to make them pop that ability early in the run, don't blame me if your BBEG is anticlimaxed into next week. Case in point:
BBEG: "Really? I was expecting a band of mighty heroes, not a silly squirrel in a cloak! Oh well, time to die li- where did he go?" VCR: *blink, slice, dice, BBEG is dead before they can speak again* Nothing personal, kid.
BBEG: "A bunny. Someone's trying to cute me to death today. Now the-" VCM: *zips into BBEG's face, grabs them, one-handed ATATATATATATATATATA, then lets go and walks away; BBEG can't say anything while this happens* BBEG: "How dare you interrupt my monologue! And with bee stings?! Oh well, you've insulted me enough. It's too late to walk away from your death!" VCM: "No. It's too late for you. You're already dead." *BBEG pops*
There are ways to have a solo mage BBEG, but they're prone to being unfun, because mages are glass cannons. For example, if you take your archmage and replace his level 8 and 9 spells with meteor swarm and maddening darkness, and maybe a contingency in his 6th level slot, it's plenty scary against the level of party that expects a CR 12 BBEG (officially, changing spell list does not affect CR...), but "rocks fall from the sky and you all die" isn't a particularly fun encounter.
There are ways to have a solo mage BBEG, but they're prone to being unfun, because mages are glass cannons. For example, if you take your archmage and replace his level 8 and 9 spells with meteor swarm and maddening darkness, and maybe a contingency in his 6th level slot, it's plenty scary against the level of party that expects a CR 12 BBEG (officially, changing spell list does not affect CR...), but "rocks fall from the sky and you all die" isn't a particularly fun encounter.
Yep, and any kind of solo glass cannon encounter is dependant on the whims of the initiative order, assuming the enemy mage is dumb enough to be standing around in the open.
If the PCs get to act first...encounter over in round 1.
If the enemy mage gets a high initiative they may get a spell off and do some damage and then they die in round 2 instead!
Its why the DM needs to try and take the intelligence of the enemy into account when creating encounters. Can be tough to plan out an enemy with an intelligence higher than my own, but I see it as a reason to surround the mage with minions, traps etc. And to try and have an escape plan as well (though knowing that a careful party can sometimes screw up any escape attempt!)
Reminds me in one campaign where the DM was running a premade module and we were running through one cave where there was a half-elf, the half-elf immediately summoned two hellhounds (or some type of wolves), and my Paladin came along, got a critical hit on her in the first strike and obvious I divine smited it, the second attack also connected and that was enough to kill the half-elf. Summons gone and we decided to explore the rest of the caves looking for the BBEG, eventually the DM had to let us know it was the half-elf that got slaughtered in one round.
Definitely need to be careful of where BBEGs are placed and how well protected they are.
My brain is now playing "Mamas, Don't Let Your BBEGs Grow Up To Be Mages" on a loop, so thanks for that
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
(officially, changing spell list does not affect CR...),
That actually depends on version.
Per 5.0,
Innate Spellcasting and Spellcasting. The impact that the Innate Spellcasting and Spellcasting special traits have on a monster’s challenge rating depends on the spells that the monster can cast. Spells that deal more damage than the monster’s normal attack routine and spells that increase the monster’s AC or hit points need to be accounted for when determining the monster’s final challenge rating. See the “Special Traits” section in the introduction of the Monster Manual for more information on these two special traits.
If a stat block has spells, you can replace any of its spells with a different spell of the same level. Avoid replacing a spell that deals damage with one that doesn’t and vice versa.
I assume this is a change based in the different approaches to spellcasting monsters. With 5.0 including utility spells in the larger lists whereas 5.5 seems to focus on them having a roughly reliable damage output.
(officially, changing spell list does not affect CR...),
That actually depends on version.
Per 5.0,
Innate Spellcasting and Spellcasting. The impact that the Innate Spellcasting and Spellcasting special traits have on a monster’s challenge rating depends on the spells that the monster can cast. Spells that deal more damage than the monster’s normal attack routine and spells that increase the monster’s AC or hit points need to be accounted for when determining the monster’s final challenge rating. See the “Special Traits” section in the introduction of the Monster Manual for more information on these two special traits.
If a stat block has spells, you can replace any of its spells with a different spell of the same level. Avoid replacing a spell that deals damage with one that doesn’t and vice versa.
I assume this is a change based in the different approaches to spellcasting monsters. With 5.0 including utility spells in the larger lists whereas 5.5 seems to focus on them having a roughly reliable damage output.
Which is interesting since AE crowd control spells can throw a battle far faster than a bit more damage.
Which is interesting since AE crowd control spells can throw a battle far faster than a bit more damage.
Yeah, it's more about whether the spell is a combat spell or not. In any case, since the archmage is a 2014 creature, I assumed the 2014 rules are in effect. It is unlikely that the 2024 archmage will look much like the 2014 version so we can't say much about its BBEG suitability.
I agree on making the encounter more interesting and complex with more 'minions' disagree on never having the big bad a mage.
You circles around the real issue, and that a LONE mage as the Big Bad. A powerful mage is going to have minions, whether other spellcasters, melee body guards, or monsters. They are going to have complicated lairs with various protections built in as well.
Note: in no way saying you shouldn't use other types of Big Bad. I'm just saying the big bad being a mage isn't the real problem. Its them being Lone that is.
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Unless you have some kind of Homebrew thing, you're DMing for one or two people, or all of your players are noncasters.
Just wanted to get those three things out of the way first.
Otherwise, I've noticed this a few common things people seem to have issue with. Issues that I do believe are kinda silly to be having, like getting mad when players use items you gave to them in creative way to make a encounter easier. Speaking of which, magic users have a lot of things like that for encounters involving other mages. Here's what they are and here's a few easy fixes.
"Damn, they used a spell/ability that prevents my villain from using his spell to get away"
"His spell/ability cause my mage from doing anything this turn so its two rounds of him getting attacked by 3+ people."
"They used their spell/ability to make my encounter a cake walk even though I think this magic boss from this book should be really tough." (This can be used on other Monsters too)
Please stop using mages, these things happens to those Monster types the most. Just give them like a bunch of minions, make the encounter not place in a flat empty battle map, or anything (even DND writers knew to do this with The Pudding King). Having a cool solo humanoid boss casting powerful spells and taking on a large party doesn't work against players who know the game (note:2014 5E version opinion). Better option, use literally any other enemy. In the Basic rules alone there's at least sixty eight monsters, more than half don't rely on magic.
Have them find a way to figure out how to fight an Aboleth who has advantage in water. Woah, I wonder if a Banshee paralysis/grapple immunity could be good for anything as it phases through the bookshelves and attacks your players? Oh wow that Rakshasa has magic immunity that could be good for something as charges at your party full of nothing but wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks? And of course a Dragon. Nothing to add there, I just think even dragons are more interesting than a single mage BBEG.
I just think, both DMs can be more relaxed and players can have more fun with this approach.
Or you could give them Legendary Resistances - the point of which is to keep solo BBEGs somewhat viable by making very hard to make save-or-suck spells hard to stick.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Mages as enemies are fine, but agree that the DM can't just use them as a solo monster and expect anything other than the PCs just walking all over them.
Part of the problem is just the overall issue with 2014 monster CRs and Encounter "Balance" though. The "Mage" has already been previewed for the new 2024 Monster Manual and looks more survivable now (around double the hit points I think). But the CR still needs considering (a standard mage is only CR 6).
But yeah, part of the challenge of a DM is trying to use a monster's abilities and intelligence in a realistic way.
E.g. A mage, being an intelligent opponent, should never get into a situation where they are taking on a party on their own anyway (unless they were egotistically over-confident of course). They would always have minions to wear down their attackers and distract them while they stand in some advantageous position raining down spells. Preferably in a location of their own choosing with cover, traps and so on.
I would also say, though, that as a DM you should never be annoyed when PCs do use their abilities to beat an encounter, especially if they use clever tactics. Its what they're supposed to do! If you expected the encounter to be harder then just learn from the experience and change things up for next time!
Mages as enemies should be control happy monsters; sure you can fireball the crap out of the party, but odds are the party is going to survive that initial burst of damage, rush the mage and if they can make it to melee he's pretty boned.
Instead, the mage should have prepped the environment (an archmage's tower should be an absolute deathtrap for invaders) with spells meant to force the players to waste time and resources thus softening them up followed by him using various spells to divide, confuse and incapacitate them before picking them off.
This post has told you the truth. Throwing a solo mage as your BBEG is very likely to end with a bored party and a very dead BBEG in one or two rounds tops, and that's if the party isn't using homebrewed or 3rd-party content. Some supplements, like Heartleaf Games' The Delver's Guide to Beast World, have abilities that can change the battlefield and flow of battle, like the Vinyotian Celerine's Burst of Silence (long story short, a 5' radius Silence field bound to the user that prevents all sound from passing through). If you haven't found a way to make them pop that ability early in the run, don't blame me if your BBEG is anticlimaxed into next week. Case in point:
BBEG: "Really? I was expecting a band of mighty heroes, not a silly squirrel in a cloak! Oh well, time to die li- where did he go?"
VCR: *blink, slice, dice, BBEG is dead before they can speak again* Nothing personal, kid.
BBEG: "A bunny. Someone's trying to cute me to death today. Now the-"
VCM: *zips into BBEG's face, grabs them, one-handed ATATATATATATATATATA, then lets go and walks away; BBEG can't say anything while this happens*
BBEG: "How dare you interrupt my monologue! And with bee stings?! Oh well, you've insulted me enough. It's too late to walk away from your death!"
VCM: "No. It's too late for you. You're already dead." *BBEG pops*
There are ways to have a solo mage BBEG, but they're prone to being unfun, because mages are glass cannons. For example, if you take your archmage and replace his level 8 and 9 spells with meteor swarm and maddening darkness, and maybe a contingency in his 6th level slot, it's plenty scary against the level of party that expects a CR 12 BBEG (officially, changing spell list does not affect CR...), but "rocks fall from the sky and you all die" isn't a particularly fun encounter.
Yep, and any kind of solo glass cannon encounter is dependant on the whims of the initiative order, assuming the enemy mage is dumb enough to be standing around in the open.
If the PCs get to act first...encounter over in round 1.
If the enemy mage gets a high initiative they may get a spell off and do some damage and then they die in round 2 instead!
Its why the DM needs to try and take the intelligence of the enemy into account when creating encounters. Can be tough to plan out an enemy with an intelligence higher than my own, but I see it as a reason to surround the mage with minions, traps etc. And to try and have an escape plan as well (though knowing that a careful party can sometimes screw up any escape attempt!)
Reminds me in one campaign where the DM was running a premade module and we were running through one cave where there was a half-elf, the half-elf immediately summoned two hellhounds (or some type of wolves), and my Paladin came along, got a critical hit on her in the first strike and obvious I divine smited it, the second attack also connected and that was enough to kill the half-elf. Summons gone and we decided to explore the rest of the caves looking for the BBEG, eventually the DM had to let us know it was the half-elf that got slaughtered in one round.
Definitely need to be careful of where BBEGs are placed and how well protected they are.
My brain is now playing "Mamas, Don't Let Your BBEGs Grow Up To Be Mages" on a loop, so thanks for that
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That actually depends on version.
Per 5.0,
(emphasis mine)
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2014/dungeon-masters-workshop#Step13SpecialTraitsActionsandReactions
Whereas the 5.5 DMG has the following,
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2024/dms-toolbox#Spells
I assume this is a change based in the different approaches to spellcasting monsters. With 5.0 including utility spells in the larger lists whereas 5.5 seems to focus on them having a roughly reliable damage output.
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Which is interesting since AE crowd control spells can throw a battle far faster than a bit more damage.
Yeah, it's more about whether the spell is a combat spell or not. In any case, since the archmage is a 2014 creature, I assumed the 2014 rules are in effect. It is unlikely that the 2024 archmage will look much like the 2014 version so we can't say much about its BBEG suitability.
I agree on making the encounter more interesting and complex with more 'minions' disagree on never having the big bad a mage.
You circles around the real issue, and that a LONE mage as the Big Bad. A powerful mage is going to have minions, whether other spellcasters, melee body guards, or monsters. They are going to have complicated lairs with various protections built in as well.
Note: in no way saying you shouldn't use other types of Big Bad. I'm just saying the big bad being a mage isn't the real problem. Its them being Lone that is.