The more isn't any real business sense in D&D pursuing this line. Could WotC create a new TTRPG to compete for that niche? Sure. Maybe they could do well, too. It doesn't really make sense for D&D to be the tool to do it. It would be a new product that would be better suited for the adaptation. Or maybe they have another game that could work, I don't know. D&D has all sorts of issues with it, as has been discussed multiple times in the thread.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It’s not insular, just realistic. This is a business endeavor, not some great humanitarian or philosophical movement. If attempting to break into market B seems like it will produce fewer returns with the same resources you could use to publish a product in market A, then there’s no reason to attempt to enter the new market. Obviously that’s a gross oversimplification of the assessment process, but if at the end of the day attempting to tailor something for Japan doesn’t have strong signs the rate of return will be better than working in their existing paradigm, a company has little to no incentive to develop that product.
You previously brought up 'established names.'
D&D was quite popular here in the '80s. The author of Record of Lodoss War and his group played D&D.
Sword World was made because TSR weren't interested in collaborating with them. A foolish mistake on their part as D&D could have become the go-to system here.
D&D is well known in Japan. It's just not the game most players choose because the format and cost conflict with the wants and needs of most players.
You are saying anything you can—even when it is not even close to reality—just to be contrarian. So don't talk to me about what is and is not 'realistic.'
TRPGs are huge in Japan. There is potential for D&D to do well. And for Wizards of the Coast to do very well for themselves by capturing the market.
Over 10 million copies of just Sword World books sold. And you believe it's just not worth paying a pittance to print bunkudon editions of D&D for hobbyists in Japan?
So, Sword World ate their lunch 35 years ago, and has only got more entrenched since.
Now, you're arguing it makes business sense for WotC to:
Fund a Japanese translation (they presumably have done this already)
Strip a system that lives and dies on having a large amount of stuff to choose from down into pocket-sized books
Fight it out with the established big name in Japan with these low-margin pocket-sized books
Why? This isn't a "if you build it, they will come" situation. Publishing D&D in this format will not suddenly bring all the Sword World players to the yard.
Could they be doing better in the Japanese market? Probably. Do they not understand it? Entirely possible. Is this the path to fabulous profits? Doubtful.
I read a little about the lore of Sword World and this is relatively generic, not more special than lots of JPRGs or Asian MMOs. It is not enough original for the current standards.
But D&D has got a special adventage and it is 3PPs can sell titles in the international market.
My idea of an isekai anime-style D&D setting with enough elements of investigation. We start with a D&D world whose main civilitation seems a mixture of Russian and Asian Pacific-Coast cultures. Then lots of towers start to appear in different points. Within these there are like demiplanes or pocket universes. Many times they are "dungeons" with traps, monsters and some hidden threasure, as if these were awaiting the champions who reclaimed them. Other times it is only the lair of some powerful creature like giants, dragons, fey lords or lichs. Any times these aren't hostile but willing to trade. Some times they are only civilian survivors escaping some apocalyptic event in their origin world. Some secret cults can summon new towers and this could be good... or bad. Some towers seems to be sentients and they can send spies (doppelganger style) to infiltrate within the near populations. There are reports about planar portals appearing relatively near a tower, but this sends minions or agents against the hostile intruders from those planar gates. Then we have dungeon-crawling as option if you want, or investigation. We could add elements of Japanese horror but I don't advice the abuse of undead. Maybe the spirits of sentient dead creatures become animated constructs, elements or mutant aberrations/monstruosities.
My new suggestion is something like a starter pack but without the core classes but something like the survivor classes from Ravenloft 5e. Simple and fast to create new PCs but more focused toward investigation and social interactions than true combat.
I assume you know it will only cost a “pittance” to convert D&D books to this format because of your vast firsthand knowledge of the publishing industry?
I’m not saying I absolutely know what forces are in play, just that it’s entirely possible that with another system now in prominence- whatever the state of affairs was 40 years ago- that WotC has run the numbers and concluded the rate of return is insufficient to be a worthwhile investment.
Does the vast knowledge of those in the industry who have informed articles about how this is why D&D does not perform well in Japan not signify for you? Are we expected to believe your knowledge of the industry is 'vaster' than theirs? You are trying to accuse me of my saying I have all this knowledge. I am not. I am saying there are articles in English as well as Japanese about how D&D underperforms here because of format and cost. You are the one pretending you simply 'know' it wouldn't be worth it to try to meet the expectations of the market.
Using your logic their wishing to make the game more inclusive and welcoming to marginalized groups is probably just so they can get more people playing and in turn make more money and so is just 'awfully capitalist' of them ...
Or are you only this cynical when it suits you?
Wizards of the Coasts' every decision could be described as 'awfully capitalist.'
If you genuinely had an issue with companies behaving in a manner that is 'awfully capitalist' why would you support Wizards of the Coasts?
Do try to be consistent and to make coherent arguments as to why they shouldn't try to do well overseas instead of just making up any 'argument' you don't even truly believe.
Seems like WOTC have a pretty decent understanding of the North American market, and have decided there isn't much reason to pursue a Sword World-like strategy. And the fact that no other company has adopted that strategy and dethroned D&D with it in North America would seem to support their logic
It's OK for two completely different regions to like different things. Dare I say, it's even a good thing
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So, Sword World ate their lunch 35 years ago, and has only got more entrenched since.
Now, you're arguing it makes business sense for WotC to:
Fund a Japanese translation (they presumably have done this already)
Strip a system that lives and dies on having a large amount of stuff to choose from down into pocket-sized books
Fight it out with the established big name in Japan with these low-margin pocket-sized books
Why? This isn't a "if you build it, they will come" situation. Publishing D&D in this format will not suddenly bring all the Sword World players to the yard.
Could they be doing better in the Japanese market? Probably. Do they not understand it? Entirely possible. Is this the path to fabulous profits? Doubtful.
There is already a Japanese translation. I said earlier the translation of the PHB for 5E sold as few as 10,000 copies. And as industry experts have pointed out this is because the cost and the format do not appeal to Japanese players.
Why do they have to strip the system?
Japanese translations take up a fraction of the space as do their English equivalents. Did you miss when I said that? When translated into kanji and at that size and probably with fewer or no illustrations the PHB would probably be no larger than a pocket size dictionary.
Are you just consciously ignoring half of the things that have already been said so you can re-make excuses that have already been addressed?
The English language editions of the core books for Call of Cthulhu published by Chaosium are hardcover. With most supplements and scenarios published as paperbacks. The Japanese edition of Call of Cthulhu published by Kadokawa is available in paperback. And although the core book is larger than bunkobon—it is tankobon and this is no larger than a standard trade paperback—many supplements and scenarios are smaller and many are pocket size bunkudon. And anything Call of Cthulhu is among the highest selling TRPG books in the country.
Chaosium obviously sees value in working with a domestic publisher to give the market what it wants and needs.
Why not Wizards of the Coast? Why conjure up every excuse even when those excuses make no sense—there would be no need to strip the system—just to explain away why Wizards of the Coast are perfectly happy underperforming here in Japan?
Someone accused me of acting as if I know the industry well. I don't. But it would appear I know it better than those whose experience of it is limited to the actions of Wizards of the Coast and to playing one and only one system and who are too insular to give any thought to how players overseas prefer to play.
Seems like WOTC have a pretty decent understanding of the North American market, and have decided there isn't much reason to pursue a Sword World-like strategy. And the fact that no other company has adopted that strategy and dethroned D&D with it in North America would seem to support their logic
It's OK for two completely different regions to like different things. Dare I say, it's even a good thing
Yes. It was. Games that do very well here take into consideration cost and format. I have already said articles in both English and Japanese are out there about this very thing.
You are misreading and misunderstanding the point being made. I am not saying Wizards of the Coast should use that strategy in North America. They could. And they might even expand their domestic market. Paizo prints smaller paperback versions of their game's core book. But what I am mostly saying is they could do better in Japan if they used it in Japan.
Call of Cthulhu does exceptionally well here. Domestically the game is cheaper and lighter.
Call of Cthulhu in North America? The two core books are hardcovers. And quite expensive hardcovers. In Japan? The single core book is available in paperback. It comes in hardcover. But its availability in paperback should probably tell you something.
It's also smaller. About the size of a standard trade paperback.
I am pretty sure Chaosium are satisfied with the contract they have with Kadokawa that ultimately sees many Japanese players buying and playing their iconic game.
re
Is there not a market for this in North America?
This was about the publication of 'replays'?
In Japan many actual played campaigns get published as transcripts. Some of these have gone on to be novelized and some made into manga and even anime series.
One of the most beloved anime characters in Japan—the high elf Deedlit—began as a PC at someone's table in the '80s. The character was famously played by science fiction author Hiroshi Yamamoto who sadly passed away last year.
I was asking if in North America players would buy and read such things. So your 'point' about how some competitor hasn't done something or other to topple D&D missed my point entirely.
My point in that regard was that transcripts of D&D campaigns could be published if there were a market for it. That this is something Wizards of the Coast might consider.
Would you personally not be interested in reading gameplay?
'Replays' in Japan can be seen as the analog predecessors of things like Critical Role. They continue to be published. And are popular even among non-players.
Ok, so, according to Wikipedia, Sword World has sold about 10 million copies-- including rulebooks, novels, replays, and other materials-- since 1989. And these are pocket-sized books, so selling for anywhere from $5 to $10 per copy. That's 50 to 100 million dollars in sales over the last 35 years, or about 2 million dollars per year. That's pocket change. That's not the kind of income that would make Wizards even notice on the balance sheet, let alone justify the investment.
Wizards of the Coast (WotC), a subsidiary of Hasbro, oversees both Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and Magic: The Gathering (MTG). While WotC’s total revenues are publicly reported, specific figures for D&D products alone are not typically disclosed. However, available data provides some insights:
• 2022: WotC’s revenue reached $1.3 billion, with tabletop games, including both D&D and MTG, accounting for $1.07 billion.
• 2021: WotC’s revenue exceeded $1 billion, achieving this milestone two years ahead of Hasbro’s target.
• 2019: WotC’s revenue was $761.2 million, with D&D contributing 23% of sales.
Based on these figures, D&D’s contribution to WotC’s revenue has been significant, though exact annual amounts are not publicly specified.
Ok, so, according to Wikipedia, Sword World has sold about 10 million copies-- including rulebooks, novels, replays, and other materials-- since 1989. And these are pocket-sized books, so selling for anywhere from $5 to $10 per copy. That's 50 to 100 million dollars in sales over the last 35 years, or about 2 million dollars per year. That's pocket change. That's not the kind of income that would make Wizards even notice on the balance sheet, let alone justify the investment.
That's 2 million dollars a year compared to ...?
The 2014 PHB sold as few as 10,000 copies in Japan. In the space of ten years. (It's interesting to note that the Japanese translation of the Mentzer red box sold 100,000 copies in Japan in its first year alone.)
The 2014 PHB only made about 70,000 dollars in sales a year in Japan. 70,000 dollars.
Add sales figures for other 5E books here in Japan—none of which sold anywhere near as well as the PHB—and you are not coming even close to 2 million a year.
The 2024 PHB is selling for around 10,000 yen. Which is ridiculously expensive. And more than most players in Japan are prepared to pay for TRPG books. It is not going to sell well. It is however about 70 US dollars given current exchange rates.
Assuming it performs as well as the 2014 PHB—and it likely won't—that's a total of around 700,000 dollars.
Over ten years.
Which is LESS THAN 2 million dollars a year. That over ten years would be 20 million dollars.
Adding the sales figures for other 2024 D&D books in Japan ain't going to get you there.
So you want Wizards of the Coast to make less money than they could be making in Japan were they making the sort of money Sword World makes in Japan just because what they would be then making wouldn't be much comparable to what they make overall?
That is so profoundly illogical. It's like your having a choice between receiving an extra 10 dollars or an extra 300 dollars a month and your saying you will take the 10 dollars because 300 dollars doesn't amount to much compared to your monthly salary. Like I said before: people in this thread are making excuses so out of touch with reality it is almost entertaining to watch.
Now factor in how much it costs to print those 10,000 yen hardcovers and how much it would cost to print pocket size paperbacks.
Using your logic their wishing to make the game more inclusive and welcoming to marginalized groups is probably just so they can get more people playing and in turn make more money and so is just 'awfully capitalist' of them ...
Or are you only this cynical when it suits you?
Wizards of the Coasts' every decision could be described as 'awfully capitalist.'
If you genuinely had an issue with companies behaving in a manner that is 'awfully capitalist' why would you support Wizards of the Coasts?
Do try to be consistent and to make coherent arguments as to why they shouldn't try to do well overseas instead of just making up any 'argument' you don't even truly believe.
That probably is a major part of it. This is purely conjecture, but I believe LGBTQ+ people make up a significant percentage of WOTC's customers.
Being inclusive costs significantly less money than trying to expand into a new market.
I was saying that ironically and have zero problems with their behavior.
Do try to "be consistent and to make coherent arguments" about why D&D would do well enough overseas to justify the investment, rather than just saying they have some kind of moral duty to invest in overseas development.
You're not going to get pocket sized books for the core rules. They won't fit without making the text too small.
You could get slightly cheaper paperbacks than hardbacks...but I daresay the profit margin would be smaller. They'll be a couple of bucks cheaper to make, but the customer would be willing to pay much less. Maybe they'd make it back on volume...but maybe not.
We already have something that is substantially cheaper than hardback (and probably the paperback) and smaller too - DDB.
In terms of "portable & cheap", I don't think D&D could even compete for that niche. Its setup is based on a large volume of content. For example, it has a steep progression, necessitating a massive library of monster Statblocks so characters at every level have a meaningful but not insurmountable challenge (compare to TOR or STA where progression is much flatter and so adversaries are a challenge throughout the character's lifetime, meaning that every new Statblock can be unique and will always be valid). Another example is it's approach to rules, where many situations have their own rules that need to be written out to explain them (compare to STA that has essentially one mechanic that resolves almost every situation).
D&D's approach has its own advantages, and switching to "compact" as a design philosophy would mean leaving its niche, in which it's dominant, to compete in other niches that already have strong players in them. I'd like D&D to be cheaper, but I think it would lose what makes it a valid choice among TTRPGs to make it that much cheaper.
When Warhammer would have a starter set (usually a box with 2 armies, 1200 points each, with the lion's share of the points being a center piece model like a hero or monster) they would include a much smaller rule book than what other players would normally buy. In this case its very stripped down: No pictures or outside lore, just the rules. It might work, BUTTTTTT the visuals often help especially for those who have a disability of some sort or are younger.
I also wonder how small the books were. Going off my experience with TT Strategy Games Kings of War have fairly small rule books, but they are fairly young for a game. Where as old man Warhammer (40k or fantasy) has been around for a long time so has more rules to deal with.
That probably is a major part of it. This is purely conjecture, but I believe LGBTQ+ people make up a significant percentage of WOTC's customers.
Being inclusive costs significantly less money than trying to expand into a new market.
I was saying that ironically and have zero problems with their behavior.
Do try to "be consistent and to make coherent arguments" about why D&D would do well enough overseas to justify the investment, rather than just saying they have some kind of moral duty to invest in overseas development.
I have said nothing about their having 'a moral duty' to do this. I have said it is insular to fail to (or to refuse to) understand the wants and needs of foreign markets when you're trying to make ground in them.
I have provided more than enough support for the idea that they could earn significantly more than they currently earn from the Japanese market. (Just read the post directly above yours. Which contains numbers to that effect.)
I have written about how localized versions of Call of Cthulhu are cheaper and lighter than the originals. It's the highest selling TRPG in Japan.
TSR allowed Group SNE to produce a translation of the Rules Cyclopedia. It too took into consideration cost and format. It was doing pretty well. Then Wizards of the Coast took over and dropped the project.
Since then D&D has been in decline in the country.
The 2014 PHB sold only 10,000 copies over the course of a decade in Japan. 1,000 copies a year. That is abysmal. And this is in a country where the TRPG hobby is alive and well.
The 1989 edition alone of the rulebook for Sword World sold 500,000 copies. Even the Japanese translation of the red box outsold 2014 D&D in Japan. Selling as it did 100,000 copies in just its first year.
Wizards of the Coast could be earning more from sales in Japan if they just paid attention to what has worked and what is working for others.
That probably is a major part of it. This is purely conjecture, but I believe LGBTQ+ people make up a significant percentage of WOTC's customers.
Being inclusive costs significantly less money than trying to expand into a new market.
I was saying that ironically and have zero problems with their behavior.
Do try to "be consistent and to make coherent arguments" about why D&D would do well enough overseas to justify the investment, rather than just saying they have some kind of moral duty to invest in overseas development.
I have said nothing about their having 'a moral duty' to do this. I have said it is insular to fail to (or to refuse to) understand the wants and needs of foreign markets when you're trying to make ground in them.
I have provided more than enough support for the idea that they could earn significantly more than they currently earn from the Japanese market. (Just read the post directly above yours. Which contains numbers.
I have written about how localized versions of Call of Cthulhu are cheaper and lighter than the originals. It's the highest selling TRPG in Japan.
TSR allowed Group SNE to produce a translation of the Rules Cyclopedia. It too took into consideration cost and format. It was doing pretty well. Then Wizards of the Coast took over and dropped the project.
Since then D&D has been in decline in the country.
The 2014 PHB sold only 10,000 copies over the course of a decade in Japan. 1,000 copies a year. That is abysmal. And this is in a country where the TRPG hobby is alive and well.
The 1989 edition alone of the rulebook for Sword World sold 500,000 copies. Even the Japanese translation of the red box outsold 2014 D&D in Japan. Selling as it did 100,000 copies in just its first year.
Wizards of the Coast could be earning more from sales in Japan if they just paid attention to what has worked and what is working for others.
Again, if the return is not high enough to justify the investment, companies won't take the risk.
Again, if the return is not high enough to justify the investment, companies won't take the risk.
One will not know the return without one's taking the risk.
Think about those numbers. 500,000 copies. The Sword World RPG rulebook. Just the rulebook. A book only available in the Japanese language. Its use limited to Japanese readers.
How many copies of the 2024 PHB do you reckon will sell worldwide?
Worldwide.
Quite a lot. More than 500,000. Right?
How many in any given single market?
BookScan suggests only about 1.5 million copies of the 2014 PHB have been sold. Now that's only three times those numbers I just gave you. The actual figure would be higher than that. But so many to be comparable to half a million copies for any given singlemarket?
In the US. Sure. In other English speaking countries? Not likely. How about their foreign language editions? Definitely not. The last of these are lucky to be selling tens of thousands of copies. Whatever the language.
When you look at it this way D&D isn't doing that hot. And not just in Japan.
I believe it could do very well in Japan.
So do a number of Japanese players and Japanese industry players who have authored articles about this very thing.
I am only saying what they are saying: to perform well here it would have to do what has helped other games perform well in Japan. Be cheaper and lighter. What's with all the resistance? Is this really about what Wizards of the Coast can or can't afford to 'risk' or about you?
Again, if the return is not high enough to justify the investment, companies won't take the risk.
One will not know the return without one's taking the risk.
Think about those numbers. 500,000 copies. The Sword World RPG rulebook. Just the rulebook. A book only available in the Japanese language. Its use limited to Japanese readers.
How many copies of the 2024 PHB do you reckon will sell worldwide?
Worldwide.
Quite a lot. More than 500,000. Right?
How many in any given single market?
BookScan suggests only about 1.5 million copies of the 2014 PHB have been sold. Now that's only three times those numbers I just gave you. The actual figure would be higher than that. But so many to be comparable to half a million copies for any given singlemarket?
In the US. Sure. In other English speaking countries? Not likely. How about their foreign language editions? Definitely not. The last of these are lucky to be selling tens of thousands of copies. Whatever the language.
When you look at it this way D&D isn't doing that hot. And not just in Japan.
I believe it could do very well in Japan.
So do a number of Japanese players and Japanese industry players who have authored articles about this very thing.
I am only saying what they are saying: to perform well here it would have to do what has helped other games perform well in Japan. Be cheaper and lighter. What's with all the resistance? Is this really about what Wizards of the Coast can or can't afford to 'risk' or about you?
I'd ask a very specific question, but I can only ask so much...
Instead I'll say:What are these sources you're citing?
Because it'd help if you cited what your sources are.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Again, if the return is not high enough to justify the investment, companies won't take the risk.
One will not know the return without one's taking the risk.
One won't "know," but the practice of looking at economic data in order to make predictions about the potential return of investments is something that has been done for centuries. If you want to convince WotC to give it a try, you're going to need a much more compelling argument than "well, I believe it could work."
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Again, if the return is not high enough to justify the investment, companies won't take the risk.
One will not know the return without one's taking the risk.
Think about those numbers. 500,000 copies. The Sword World RPG rulebook. Just the rulebook. A book only available in the Japanese language. Its use limited to Japanese readers.
How many copies of the 2024 PHB do you reckon will sell worldwide?
Worldwide.
Quite a lot. More than 500,000. Right?
How many in any given single market?
BookScan suggests only about 1.5 million copies of the 2014 PHB have been sold. Now that's only three times those numbers I just gave you. The actual figure would be higher than that. But so many to be comparable to half a million copies for any given singlemarket?
In the US. Sure. In other English speaking countries? Not likely. How about their foreign language editions? Definitely not. The last of these are lucky to be selling tens of thousands of copies. Whatever the language.
When you look at it this way D&D isn't doing that hot. And not just in Japan.
I believe it could do very well in Japan.
So do a number of Japanese players and Japanese industry players who have authored articles about this very thing.
I am only saying what they are saying: to perform well here it would have to do what has helped other games perform well in Japan. Be cheaper and lighter. What's with all the resistance? Is this really about what Wizards of the Coast can or can't afford to 'risk' or about you?
Making light and cheap books is a completely different business model to the one WotC currently uses. I for one would rather pay less for the books. If they were to do that, however, it would completely erase their profit margins. Aside from that, from what you've been saying, the market in Japan is oversaturated and WotC would need to compete with better established brands.
Ok, so, according to Wikipedia, Sword World has sold about 10 million copies-- including rulebooks, novels, replays, and other materials-- since 1989. And these are pocket-sized books, so selling for anywhere from $5 to $10 per copy. That's 50 to 100 million dollars in sales over the last 35 years, or about 2 million dollars per year. That's pocket change. That's not the kind of income that would make Wizards even notice on the balance sheet, let alone justify the investment.
That's 2 million dollars a year compared to ...?
The 2014 PHB sold as few as 10,000 copies in Japan. In the space of ten years. (It's interesting to note that the Japanese translation of the Mentzer red box sold 100,000 copies in Japan in its first year alone.)
The 2014 PHB only made about 70,000 dollars in sales a year in Japan. 70,000 dollars.
Add sales figures for other 5E books here in Japan—none of which sold anywhere near as well as the PHB—and you are not coming even close to 2 million a year.
The 2024 PHB is selling for around 10,000 yen. Which is ridiculously expensive. And more than most players in Japan are prepared to pay for TRPG books. It is not going to sell well. It is however about 70 US dollars given current exchange rates.
Assuming it performs as well as the 2014 PHB—and it likely won't—that's a total of around 700,000 dollars.
Over ten years.
Which is LESS THAN 2 million dollars a year. That over ten years would be 20 million dollars.
Adding the sales figures for other 2024 D&D books in Japan ain't going to get you there.
So you want Wizards of the Coast to make less money than they could be making in Japan were they making the sort of money Sword World makes in Japan just because what they would be then making wouldn't be much comparable to what they make overall?
That is so profoundly illogical. It's like your having a choice between receiving an extra 10 dollars or an extra 300 dollars a month and your saying you will take the 10 dollars because 300 dollars doesn't amount to much compared to your monthly salary. Like I said before: people in this thread are making excuses so out of touch with reality it is almost entertaining to watch.
Now factor in how much it costs to print those 10,000 yen hardcovers and how much it would cost to print pocket size paperbacks.
The math is NOT on your side. In any way.
You're missing the point; if over the span of this other system's 30+ year life it's sold 10 million copies all together, that comes out to to about 333K a year. For some context, Tasha's sold 133K in its first week. Granted, that is over a much wider market, but still; WotC following their formula that they market globally sold about one third of this system's yearly sales across all their products in one of WotC's product's first week of release. Given that, why should they expect that instead of continuing the process they've got a firm handle on for products they can sell globally, it will be more profitable to divert time and resources to custom build a product for a particular market that the trends show is far, far smaller than what they can sell their established products to? Particularly when they would be fighting an uphill battle to convince people who've already invested in one system to turn around and invest again in another.
Could they turn a profit in Japan following this model? Sure, probably, they could have the clout to push it through. Would they make more profit relative to their time and money investment than they could on another book they can sell to their entire playerbase? Probably not. Ergo, the opportunity cost is greater than the returns, making it a bad move for a business. They physical production costs aren't the major factor, it's the dev time to create a whole new book that most of their customers won't buy.
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This is just going in circles.
The more isn't any real business sense in D&D pursuing this line. Could WotC create a new TTRPG to compete for that niche? Sure. Maybe they could do well, too. It doesn't really make sense for D&D to be the tool to do it. It would be a new product that would be better suited for the adaptation. Or maybe they have another game that could work, I don't know. D&D has all sorts of issues with it, as has been discussed multiple times in the thread.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So, Sword World ate their lunch 35 years ago, and has only got more entrenched since.
Now, you're arguing it makes business sense for WotC to:
Why? This isn't a "if you build it, they will come" situation. Publishing D&D in this format will not suddenly bring all the Sword World players to the yard.
Could they be doing better in the Japanese market? Probably. Do they not understand it? Entirely possible. Is this the path to fabulous profits? Doubtful.
I read a little about the lore of Sword World and this is relatively generic, not more special than lots of JPRGs or Asian MMOs. It is not enough original for the current standards.
But D&D has got a special adventage and it is 3PPs can sell titles in the international market.
My idea of an isekai anime-style D&D setting with enough elements of investigation. We start with a D&D world whose main civilitation seems a mixture of Russian and Asian Pacific-Coast cultures. Then lots of towers start to appear in different points. Within these there are like demiplanes or pocket universes. Many times they are "dungeons" with traps, monsters and some hidden threasure, as if these were awaiting the champions who reclaimed them. Other times it is only the lair of some powerful creature like giants, dragons, fey lords or lichs. Any times these aren't hostile but willing to trade. Some times they are only civilian survivors escaping some apocalyptic event in their origin world. Some secret cults can summon new towers and this could be good... or bad. Some towers seems to be sentients and they can send spies (doppelganger style) to infiltrate within the near populations. There are reports about planar portals appearing relatively near a tower, but this sends minions or agents against the hostile intruders from those planar gates. Then we have dungeon-crawling as option if you want, or investigation. We could add elements of Japanese horror but I don't advice the abuse of undead. Maybe the spirits of sentient dead creatures become animated constructs, elements or mutant aberrations/monstruosities.
My new suggestion is something like a starter pack but without the core classes but something like the survivor classes from Ravenloft 5e. Simple and fast to create new PCs but more focused toward investigation and social interactions than true combat.
Does the vast knowledge of those in the industry who have informed articles about how this is why D&D does not perform well in Japan not signify for you? Are we expected to believe your knowledge of the industry is 'vaster' than theirs? You are trying to accuse me of my saying I have all this knowledge. I am not. I am saying there are articles in English as well as Japanese about how D&D underperforms here because of format and cost. You are the one pretending you simply 'know' it wouldn't be worth it to try to meet the expectations of the market.
Using your logic their wishing to make the game more inclusive and welcoming to marginalized groups is probably just so they can get more people playing and in turn make more money and so is just 'awfully capitalist' of them ...
Or are you only this cynical when it suits you?
Wizards of the Coasts' every decision could be described as 'awfully capitalist.'
If you genuinely had an issue with companies behaving in a manner that is 'awfully capitalist' why would you support Wizards of the Coasts?
Do try to be consistent and to make coherent arguments as to why they shouldn't try to do well overseas instead of just making up any 'argument' you don't even truly believe.
Was it?
Seems like WOTC have a pretty decent understanding of the North American market, and have decided there isn't much reason to pursue a Sword World-like strategy. And the fact that no other company has adopted that strategy and dethroned D&D with it in North America would seem to support their logic
It's OK for two completely different regions to like different things. Dare I say, it's even a good thing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There is already a Japanese translation. I said earlier the translation of the PHB for 5E sold as few as 10,000 copies. And as industry experts have pointed out this is because the cost and the format do not appeal to Japanese players.
Why do they have to strip the system?
Japanese translations take up a fraction of the space as do their English equivalents. Did you miss when I said that? When translated into kanji and at that size and probably with fewer or no illustrations the PHB would probably be no larger than a pocket size dictionary.
Are you just consciously ignoring half of the things that have already been said so you can re-make excuses that have already been addressed?
The English language editions of the core books for Call of Cthulhu published by Chaosium are hardcover. With most supplements and scenarios published as paperbacks. The Japanese edition of Call of Cthulhu published by Kadokawa is available in paperback. And although the core book is larger than bunkobon—it is tankobon and this is no larger than a standard trade paperback—many supplements and scenarios are smaller and many are pocket size bunkudon. And anything Call of Cthulhu is among the highest selling TRPG books in the country.
Chaosium obviously sees value in working with a domestic publisher to give the market what it wants and needs.
Why not Wizards of the Coast? Why conjure up every excuse even when those excuses make no sense—there would be no need to strip the system—just to explain away why Wizards of the Coast are perfectly happy underperforming here in Japan?
Someone accused me of acting as if I know the industry well. I don't. But it would appear I know it better than those whose experience of it is limited to the actions of Wizards of the Coast and to playing one and only one system and who are too insular to give any thought to how players overseas prefer to play.
Yes. It was. Games that do very well here take into consideration cost and format. I have already said articles in both English and Japanese are out there about this very thing.
You are misreading and misunderstanding the point being made. I am not saying Wizards of the Coast should use that strategy in North America. They could. And they might even expand their domestic market. Paizo prints smaller paperback versions of their game's core book. But what I am mostly saying is they could do better in Japan if they used it in Japan.
Call of Cthulhu does exceptionally well here. Domestically the game is cheaper and lighter.
Call of Cthulhu in North America? The two core books are hardcovers. And quite expensive hardcovers. In Japan? The single core book is available in paperback. It comes in hardcover. But its availability in paperback should probably tell you something.
It's also smaller. About the size of a standard trade paperback.
I am pretty sure Chaosium are satisfied with the contract they have with Kadokawa that ultimately sees many Japanese players buying and playing their iconic game.
re
This was about the publication of 'replays'?
In Japan many actual played campaigns get published as transcripts. Some of these have gone on to be novelized and some made into manga and even anime series.
One of the most beloved anime characters in Japan—the high elf Deedlit—began as a PC at someone's table in the '80s. The character was famously played by science fiction author Hiroshi Yamamoto who sadly passed away last year.
I was asking if in North America players would buy and read such things. So your 'point' about how some competitor hasn't done something or other to topple D&D missed my point entirely.
My point in that regard was that transcripts of D&D campaigns could be published if there were a market for it. That this is something Wizards of the Coast might consider.
Would you personally not be interested in reading gameplay?
'Replays' in Japan can be seen as the analog predecessors of things like Critical Role. They continue to be published. And are popular even among non-players.
Ok, so, according to Wikipedia, Sword World has sold about 10 million copies-- including rulebooks, novels, replays, and other materials-- since 1989. And these are pocket-sized books, so selling for anywhere from $5 to $10 per copy. That's 50 to 100 million dollars in sales over the last 35 years, or about 2 million dollars per year. That's pocket change. That's not the kind of income that would make Wizards even notice on the balance sheet, let alone justify the investment.
Wizards of the Coast (WotC), a subsidiary of Hasbro, oversees both Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and Magic: The Gathering (MTG). While WotC’s total revenues are publicly reported, specific figures for D&D products alone are not typically disclosed. However, available data provides some insights:
• 2022: WotC’s revenue reached $1.3 billion, with tabletop games, including both D&D and MTG, accounting for $1.07 billion.
• 2021: WotC’s revenue exceeded $1 billion, achieving this milestone two years ahead of Hasbro’s target.
• 2019: WotC’s revenue was $761.2 million, with D&D contributing 23% of sales.
Based on these figures, D&D’s contribution to WotC’s revenue has been significant, though exact annual amounts are not publicly specified.
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That's 2 million dollars a year compared to ...?
The 2014 PHB sold as few as 10,000 copies in Japan. In the space of ten years. (It's interesting to note that the Japanese translation of the Mentzer red box sold 100,000 copies in Japan in its first year alone.)
The 2014 PHB only made about 70,000 dollars in sales a year in Japan. 70,000 dollars.
Add sales figures for other 5E books here in Japan—none of which sold anywhere near as well as the PHB—and you are not coming even close to 2 million a year.
The 2024 PHB is selling for around 10,000 yen. Which is ridiculously expensive. And more than most players in Japan are prepared to pay for TRPG books. It is not going to sell well. It is however about 70 US dollars given current exchange rates.
Assuming it performs as well as the 2014 PHB—and it likely won't—that's a total of around 700,000 dollars.
Over ten years.
Which is LESS THAN 2 million dollars a year. That over ten years would be 20 million dollars.
Adding the sales figures for other 2024 D&D books in Japan ain't going to get you there.
So you want Wizards of the Coast to make less money than they could be making in Japan were they making the sort of money Sword World makes in Japan just because what they would be then making wouldn't be much comparable to what they make overall?
That is so profoundly illogical. It's like your having a choice between receiving an extra 10 dollars or an extra 300 dollars a month and your saying you will take the 10 dollars because 300 dollars doesn't amount to much compared to your monthly salary. Like I said before: people in this thread are making excuses so out of touch with reality it is almost entertaining to watch.
Now factor in how much it costs to print those 10,000 yen hardcovers and how much it would cost to print pocket size paperbacks.
The math is NOT on your side. In any way.
When Warhammer would have a starter set (usually a box with 2 armies, 1200 points each, with the lion's share of the points being a center piece model like a hero or monster) they would include a much smaller rule book than what other players would normally buy. In this case its very stripped down: No pictures or outside lore, just the rules. It might work, BUTTTTTT the visuals often help especially for those who have a disability of some sort or are younger.
I also wonder how small the books were. Going off my experience with TT Strategy Games Kings of War have fairly small rule books, but they are fairly young for a game. Where as old man Warhammer (40k or fantasy) has been around for a long time so has more rules to deal with.
How close or off bases are my theories?
I have said nothing about their having 'a moral duty' to do this. I have said it is insular to fail to (or to refuse to) understand the wants and needs of foreign markets when you're trying to make ground in them.
I have provided more than enough support for the idea that they could earn significantly more than they currently earn from the Japanese market. (Just read the post directly above yours. Which contains numbers to that effect.)
I have written about how localized versions of Call of Cthulhu are cheaper and lighter than the originals. It's the highest selling TRPG in Japan.
TSR allowed Group SNE to produce a translation of the Rules Cyclopedia. It too took into consideration cost and format. It was doing pretty well. Then Wizards of the Coast took over and dropped the project.
Since then D&D has been in decline in the country.
The 2014 PHB sold only 10,000 copies over the course of a decade in Japan. 1,000 copies a year. That is abysmal. And this is in a country where the TRPG hobby is alive and well.
The 1989 edition alone of the rulebook for Sword World sold 500,000 copies. Even the Japanese translation of the red box outsold 2014 D&D in Japan. Selling as it did 100,000 copies in just its first year.
Wizards of the Coast could be earning more from sales in Japan if they just paid attention to what has worked and what is working for others.
Again, if the return is not high enough to justify the investment, companies won't take the risk.
One will not know the return without one's taking the risk.
Think about those numbers. 500,000 copies. The Sword World RPG rulebook. Just the rulebook. A book only available in the Japanese language. Its use limited to Japanese readers.
How many copies of the 2024 PHB do you reckon will sell worldwide?
Worldwide.
Quite a lot. More than 500,000. Right?
How many in any given single market?
BookScan suggests only about 1.5 million copies of the 2014 PHB have been sold. Now that's only three times those numbers I just gave you. The actual figure would be higher than that. But so many to be comparable to half a million copies for any given single market?
In the US. Sure. In other English speaking countries? Not likely. How about their foreign language editions? Definitely not. The last of these are lucky to be selling tens of thousands of copies. Whatever the language.
When you look at it this way D&D isn't doing that hot. And not just in Japan.
I believe it could do very well in Japan.
So do a number of Japanese players and Japanese industry players who have authored articles about this very thing.
I am only saying what they are saying: to perform well here it would have to do what has helped other games perform well in Japan. Be cheaper and lighter. What's with all the resistance? Is this really about what Wizards of the Coast can or can't afford to 'risk' or about you?
I'd ask a very specific question, but I can only ask so much...
Instead I'll say:What are these sources you're citing?
Because it'd help if you cited what your sources are.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
One won't "know," but the practice of looking at economic data in order to make predictions about the potential return of investments is something that has been done for centuries. If you want to convince WotC to give it a try, you're going to need a much more compelling argument than "well, I believe it could work."
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Making light and cheap books is a completely different business model to the one WotC currently uses. I for one would rather pay less for the books. If they were to do that, however, it would completely erase their profit margins. Aside from that, from what you've been saying, the market in Japan is oversaturated and WotC would need to compete with better established brands.
You're missing the point; if over the span of this other system's 30+ year life it's sold 10 million copies all together, that comes out to to about 333K a year. For some context, Tasha's sold 133K in its first week. Granted, that is over a much wider market, but still; WotC following their formula that they market globally sold about one third of this system's yearly sales across all their products in one of WotC's product's first week of release. Given that, why should they expect that instead of continuing the process they've got a firm handle on for products they can sell globally, it will be more profitable to divert time and resources to custom build a product for a particular market that the trends show is far, far smaller than what they can sell their established products to? Particularly when they would be fighting an uphill battle to convince people who've already invested in one system to turn around and invest again in another.
Could they turn a profit in Japan following this model? Sure, probably, they could have the clout to push it through. Would they make more profit relative to their time and money investment than they could on another book they can sell to their entire playerbase? Probably not. Ergo, the opportunity cost is greater than the returns, making it a bad move for a business. They physical production costs aren't the major factor, it's the dev time to create a whole new book that most of their customers won't buy.