So in tonight's game, we had a moment where our fighter is abducted by a survivor of a village he massacred while serving a now corrupt military our party is helping rebel resistance against. Looking for his character to atone for sins of his past, once he knows who has him captured, he drops to his knees in front of his captor, drops his sword and was willing to let the captor kills his character.
Rest of the party catches up and combat begins. Our sorcerer sees this and cast "Suggest" on him with the command to defend himself. Another player and I thought that shouldn't work, cause isn't fighting even to defend oneself, putting self into a dangerous position, thus making the suggestion worthless?
I guess it didn't matter cause the captor was able to go before him and kill him, but still curious if suggestion wouldn't have worked that way.
I don't see anything in the spell description that would indicate any reason why it wouldn't work. If the fighter fails his Wisdom saving throw, he would have the Charmed condition, so it should work.
That being said, the idea of player-on-player mind control magic gives me the ick.
Are you the DM in this scenario? If not, I'd like to hear from the DM, but regardless, I want to hear from the player who did the Suggestion, & the player who was willing to let the PC die.
Did both players consent to the mind control?
Because if not, this is something that Session 0 should have addressed.
There's a reason enchantment spells have a bad rep, because those spells can bring up memories of gaslighting, propaganda & abuse. I don't think this was meant to feed that beast, but try not to allow this on ethical concerns despite it working RAW due to the apparent consent issues, or, at least, encourage the players to flavor it as a cheer/pep talk sprinkled with magic to make it a more good-aligned action if that's what the PC is.
Also, make sure the other player actually wanted their character to die. You might have misread the room.
There are SO many other questions I have, but I have to keep it brief.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Suggestion only breaks when it's making the target take a dangerous action, defending oneself is trying to remove oneself from danger and as such would never break suggestion.
Still, dunno why the DM allowed it, wouldn't it just have been easier to cast Suggestion on the NPC and give the suggestion to "Let's talk it our first and then consider the appropriate action." Seems simpler? Still since the fighter died, I presume the DM and Player probably already agreed to the character dying in this fashion out of session and the NPC going first was probably due to the same reason.
It's fine, personal feelings if people not playing about the nature of it aside. If everyone at the table consented to the action, then the only issue would be RAW, and RAW says it works.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well only reason think defend self would put you in some bit of danger cause you would be in active combat. I think an alterative would have said to the fighter was to run instead. As for trying Suggestion on the NPC, the sorcerer twinned the spell but she succeeded. In the end it didn't even matter cause any death wasn't permeant do some effects going on by some crystals anyways.
Well only reason think defend self would put you in some bit of danger cause you would be in active combat. I think an alterative would have said to the fighter was to run instead. As for trying Suggestion on the NPC, the sorcerer twinned the spell but she succeeded. In the end it didn't even matter cause any death wasn't permeant do some effects going on by some crystals anyways.
That is fair enough then, and yes, Running would be superior but defending is still better than letting yourself be killed, it is lowering danger ultimately.
I always read the dangerous action clause to mean you can’t tell someone to go stand in a fire or jump off a cliff. Things that will certainly result in harm. If you start down the rabbit hole of things that could potentially result in harm, well, walking in the forest means you might get attacked by a bear — there’s no action that is going to be 100% safe all the time.
In this case, also, the fighter doesn’t have to fight to defend themself. They can stand up and take the dodge action every turn. They don’t even need to pick up their sword to do it.
So in tonight's game, we had a moment where our fighter is abducted by a survivor of a village he massacred while serving a now corrupt military our party is helping rebel resistance against. Looking for his character to atone for sins of his past, once he knows who has him captured, he drops to his knees in front of his captor, drops his sword and was willing to let the captor kills his character.
Rest of the party catches up and combat begins. Our sorcerer sees this and cast "Suggest" on him with the command to defend himself. Another player and I thought that shouldn't work, cause isn't fighting even to defend oneself, putting self into a dangerous position, thus making the suggestion worthless?
I guess it didn't matter cause the captor was able to go before him and kill him, but still curious if suggestion wouldn't have worked that way.
Edit- Spell "Suggestion"
I don't see anything in the spell description that would indicate any reason why it wouldn't work. If the fighter fails his Wisdom saving throw, he would have the Charmed condition, so it should work.
That being said, the idea of player-on-player mind control magic gives me the ick.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Are you the DM in this scenario? If not, I'd like to hear from the DM, but regardless, I want to hear from the player who did the Suggestion, & the player who was willing to let the PC die.
Did both players consent to the mind control?
Because if not, this is something that Session 0 should have addressed.
There's a reason enchantment spells have a bad rep, because those spells can bring up memories of gaslighting, propaganda & abuse. I don't think this was meant to feed that beast, but try not to allow this on ethical concerns despite it working RAW due to the apparent consent issues, or, at least, encourage the players to flavor it as a cheer/pep talk sprinkled with magic to make it a more good-aligned action if that's what the PC is.
Also, make sure the other player actually wanted their character to die. You might have misread the room.
There are SO many other questions I have, but I have to keep it brief.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Defending themselves makes them less likely to die, if I understand the situation correctly, so it would definitely work.
Suggestion only breaks when it's making the target take a dangerous action, defending oneself is trying to remove oneself from danger and as such would never break suggestion.
Still, dunno why the DM allowed it, wouldn't it just have been easier to cast Suggestion on the NPC and give the suggestion to "Let's talk it our first and then consider the appropriate action." Seems simpler? Still since the fighter died, I presume the DM and Player probably already agreed to the character dying in this fashion out of session and the NPC going first was probably due to the same reason.
It's fine, personal feelings if people not playing about the nature of it aside. If everyone at the table consented to the action, then the only issue would be RAW, and RAW says it works.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well only reason think defend self would put you in some bit of danger cause you would be in active combat. I think an alterative would have said to the fighter was to run instead. As for trying Suggestion on the NPC, the sorcerer twinned the spell but she succeeded. In the end it didn't even matter cause any death wasn't permeant do some effects going on by some crystals anyways.
That is fair enough then, and yes, Running would be superior but defending is still better than letting yourself be killed, it is lowering danger ultimately.
I always read the dangerous action clause to mean you can’t tell someone to go stand in a fire or jump off a cliff. Things that will certainly result in harm. If you start down the rabbit hole of things that could potentially result in harm, well, walking in the forest means you might get attacked by a bear — there’s no action that is going to be 100% safe all the time.
In this case, also, the fighter doesn’t have to fight to defend themself. They can stand up and take the dodge action every turn. They don’t even need to pick up their sword to do it.
Defending yourself with no intent to respond to the attacks with attacks is a completely achievable and reasonable suggestion.