So after playing for a year or two now i can say for certainty the upcasting in 5e is awful. Some spells have solid upcast that go along with what they do such as hold person and fireball while others dont really make sense? Ensnaring strike is about restraining the enemy and deals a little damage but its upcast isnt related to making the snare harder to break out of and just the small amount of damage it deals? that doesnt feel good and ends up making spells like that just get forgotten about. The other spells that need a look at are the ones that have no upcast as all? Haste 100% should have an upcast even if its as simple as targeting another creature and even then it wouldnt be broken just fun. not to mention the spells that get left in the dust because their upcast is just so bad burning hands and dragons breath gain 1d6 for every level upcast for burning hands at 3rd lvl thats 5d6 in a 15ft cone and DB is 4d6 in a 15ft cone (it is every turn tho but still bad) these spells arent worth the upcast they dont increase in size and their damage upcast is pointless.
Someone i was talking to said upcasting was made bad on purpose so you have a reason to cast the other spells and idk if that is true but if it is why have upcasting at all? does anyone know the real reason upcasting is so wack in 5e? was it this weird in older editions? i dont really think theres a point in making a spell if its made just to be forgotten fast 5th level.
Upcasting a spell should always underperform when compared to casting a higher level spell - the higher level spell should always be better than the lower level spell, upcast. You upcast if you are out of lower level slots, or if you simply don't have an appropriate spell of higher level. They simply aren't meant to 'keep up'. As for spells like Haste, allowing them to target additional targets risk making them too powerful (the spell is already quite powerful).
Spells should aim to do different things such as control or deal damage. Haste is a subpar spell it uses con and comes with a drawback once you lose con or its over the extra movement is nice and the little AC bump the extra attack isnt going crazy unless its on things like a rogue who uses their main action to hold their attack and uses the haste action to attack on their turn other then that you get more out of hypnotic pattern or fear or any shut down spell. If haste could be upcasted to target another person it doesnt come close to any 4th lvl spell polymorph being a big one.
You clearly have never seen a Hasted barbarian or fighter go "Will It Blend?" on an enemy formation. Fear and Hypnotic Pattern can be powerful, but many enemies are resistant or immune to the effects. Haste is a powerful spell when used right (though thankfully no longer broken the way it was in 3.0 rules).
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Regarding Ensnaring Strike specifically, it's a Smite type spell. The point of using it is not to affect multiple targets, it's to affect a single particular target. Ergo, increasing the immediate DPR effect of the spell is both beneficial to its function and balanced within 5e's paradigm for inflicting status effects.
Within the larger scope of damage scaling upcasts, I believe the point is also to keep multiclass caster builds from falling too far behind in DPR- you can squeeze about as much damage out of a 5th level Fireball as you can from Cone of Cold, though CoC has much better coverage. Upcasting most spells is not so much about making them "good"; it's about making them less bad when you don't have access to an appropriately leveled spell for the occasion.
If you don't think upcasting a spell is worth it, there's a simple solution. Cast something else. Don't use it. For most other editions, it didn't even exist.
iv seen plenty of people cast haste on a barb and fighter (haste twin spelled) and even that made it feel like it was worth casting tho next turn they also ended the fight with fireball dealing more damage and basically wasted sorcery points/spell slot on haste
Regarding Ensnaring Strike specifically, it's a Smite type spell. The point of using it is not to affect multiple targets, it's to affect a single particular target. Ergo, increasing the immediate DPR effect of the spell is both beneficial to its function and balanced within 5e's paradigm for inflicting status effects.
Within the larger scope of damage scaling upcasts, I believe the point is also to keep multiclass caster builds from falling too far behind in DPR- you can squeeze about as much damage out of a 5th level Fireball as you can from Cone of Cold, though CoC has much better coverage. Upcasting most spells is not so much about making them "good"; it's about making them less bad when you don't have access to an appropriately leveled spell for the occasion.
the spell doesnt do anything on a hit like a normal smite spell tho it can be used with ranged attacks but even then theres still a solid chance you just wasted a spell slot also the upcast doesnt follow the main point of the spell which is to restrain a creature but upcasting just makes the small amount of damage it deals slightly more? it should make the spell harder to get out of imo like how the spell says larger creatures have advantage that could go away in upcast or something at least
really? upcasting wasnt in older editions at all? also that really should be the case with spells imo id love to see spells designed to be upcast to gain more effects
btw sorry if it sounds like im being negative or trying to say everyone is wrong bc yall arent i just wish WOTC took the time to be a little more friendly to upcasting so it would add on different effects or grow in size or something beyond mosts basic damage increase
You want more effects the more something is upcast, right?
What exactly do you want from what spell, upcasting effects-wise?
Do you want Fireball to emit heavily obsucring smoke when upcast at 5th level, or something similar?
Please be specific.
more effects or to play into what the spell is trying to do Burning hands aka 15ft cone 3d6 with an upcast of 1d6 its bad right from the start tho add on 10ft size increase for the cone per level along with the damage increase? and its a spell worth upcasting in ways that isnt broken. Ensnaring strike aka BA on hit to attempt to restrain a target with a lil reward of 1d6 if it works large or larger monsters get advantage on breaking out. The snare gets stronger the higher the upcast bc thats what the spell is actually about the idea of restraining so the upcast effects that and at higher levels it gives a debuff to small targets. Since 5e doesnt really do minus numbers as a debuff disadvantage will be fine the higher the casting the larger the creature it effects now a 2nd lvl is a normal roll for a large monster and disadvantage for smaller and to balance it out? remove the damage fully Steel wind strike aka teleport around and smack 5 people no upcast. pretty simple let them target an extra person or increase the range. Fireball aka 8d6 20ft radius 150ft range 1d6 upcast. I think its fine the way it is its a big boom spell and bc its stronger then its suppose to be at that level its upcast just keeps it consistent at higher levels
There are plenty of other ideas i have but im not going to spam the general chat with homebrew ideas just wanted to give my thoughts.
btw sorry if it sounds like im being negative or trying to say everyone is wrong bc yall arent i just wish WOTC took the time to be a little more friendly to upcasting so it would add on different effects or grow in size or something beyond mosts basic damage increase
In older editions, there was no need for upcasting because damage scaled with caster level even just casting at the original spell level. Then they put caps on how far it would upscale. And now upscaling costs a higher level spell slot.
So it has actually been being nerfed over the various editions.
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"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
thats ok not everyone will. Whats your opinion of the current state of upcasting?
That while it is not perfect, it keeps some of the higher level spells from feeling useless, and the scaling being what it is, means classes like the Warlock aren't even more broken and overpowered than they are now. I to this day flabberghast some of my DMs when i play my cards right and as a Warlock obliterate one of their bosses by finding a weakness then pumping an upcast spell of that type on them. If upcasting were more powerful, then i would never be allowed to play warlock again, because they would just be TOO potent. Any adjustment to it would have to be done carefully, so things like Blight or Shatter, which have additional effects against certain creature types don't become more of a delete button than they are now. It is not bad, it is just quirky and sometimes annoying, but I understand why it is the way it is. I have seen other formulations to do it and they were complicated and didn't always deliver better results, and in a game where the rules aren't simple, each additional layer of complication really stacks up and bogs down combat.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
I wonder how much of your problem with upcasting comes from mediocre game experience. In one of your posts, you mention a spellcaster obliterated an enemy with fireball, making haste feel wasted. That is not an upcasting problem - that is a poor encounter design problem. A good encounter should allow parties to work together to abuse things like the absurdly powerful Haste, and should not be broken by a frankly overrated spell like Fireball. Fireball has its place, when there are large groups of low-HP enemies, but it is really just damage. If damage is enough to win a fight, the fight is poorly designed.
Upcasting is fine as it is. The balance encourages you to choose new spells as you get them, keeping the game from feeling stagnant and allowing you to feel like you are growing as a character. At the same time, it improves upon spells with unique effects, so you do not feel like you are completely leaving behind those mechanically unique spells. Sure, some are better balanced than others—but there are plenty of perfectly great low level spells that scale fairly well. Additionally, not every spell scales with damage - Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, for example, scales number of targets.
Overall, if your DM is not making encounters dynamic and complex enough that you have to make the tactical choice of what unique spell effect to use (which might be a high level spell or might be an upcast low level spell, perhaps sacrificing damage for the effect), the problem is not the game system.
We don't know anything about the encounter design. All we can draw from it is that one person thought it a good idea to cast the long-game spell Haste, then someone managed to end the encounter before it could shine with a short-game spell, Fireball. Sounds like the problem was the party wasn't communicating and so wasted the spell slot - or happenstance just meant that the Haste was superfluous. Upcasting doesn't sound like it was the issue though.
I will say that there are spells that I wish that could be upcast for better effects. I'm quite content with the idea of upcasting being inferior to spells of the native level. That creates choice - do I learn a new spell to upgrade my ability in that area, or do I learn a spell of a different area and just rely on upcasting for the first area? However, for similar reasons, it would be nice if there weee upcasting options for each spell.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Upcasting is fine as it is. The balance encourages you to choose new spells as you get them, keeping the game from feeling stagnant and allowing you to feel like you are growing as a character. At the same time, it improves upon spells with unique effects, so you do not feel like you are completely leaving behind those mechanically unique spells. Sure, some are better balanced than others—but there are plenty of perfectly great low level spells that scale fairly well. Additionally, not every spell scales with damage - Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, for example, scales number of targets.
Overall, if your DM is not making encounters dynamic and complex enough that you have to make the tactical choice of what unique spell effect to use (which might be a high level spell or might be an upcast low level spell, perhaps sacrificing damage for the effect), the problem is not the game system.
I can think of times when upcasting was extremely useful, but it was very situational -- which is how it should be, IMO. Upcasting should be something you do rarely, because most of the time casting a 5th-level spell should be a better idea than casting a 2nd-level spell at 5th level
One specific example where upcasting was useful -- party was fighting a boss whose AC was jacked up by a bunch of floating animated shields surrounding them. Even a hit would just cause one shield to block it and become inert, so after a round of frustrating combat for the melee guys, my wizard upcast magic missile -- not to do more damage, but to ping the shields with individual hits and take them out, leaving the boss exposed (I did one extra missile beyond what was necessary, just to basically flick them in the forehead and say, "You might want to surrender now")
If you want different effects, cast a different spell tailored to that purpose. Tacking extra effects onto a spell just as a reward or something for upcasting it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
btw sorry if it sounds like im being negative or trying to say everyone is wrong bc yall arent i just wish WOTC took the time to be a little more friendly to upcasting so it would add on different effects or grow in size or something beyond mosts basic damage increase
In older editions, there was no need for upcasting because damage scaled with caster level even just casting at the original spell level. Then they put caps on how far it would upscale. And now upscaling costs a higher level spell slot.
So it has actually been being nerfed over the various editions.
The other thing that the Upcasting mechanic did was consolidate similar spells at multiple levels with a single spell that could be Upcast, which helped for characters with a much more limited number of Spells Known than 3.5e typically did.
So after playing for a year or two now i can say for certainty the upcasting in 5e is awful. Some spells have solid upcast that go along with what they do such as hold person and fireball while others dont really make sense? Ensnaring strike is about restraining the enemy and deals a little damage but its upcast isnt related to making the snare harder to break out of and just the small amount of damage it deals? that doesnt feel good and ends up making spells like that just get forgotten about. The other spells that need a look at are the ones that have no upcast as all? Haste 100% should have an upcast even if its as simple as targeting another creature and even then it wouldnt be broken just fun. not to mention the spells that get left in the dust because their upcast is just so bad burning hands and dragons breath gain 1d6 for every level upcast for burning hands at 3rd lvl thats 5d6 in a 15ft cone and DB is 4d6 in a 15ft cone (it is every turn tho but still bad) these spells arent worth the upcast they dont increase in size and their damage upcast is pointless.
Someone i was talking to said upcasting was made bad on purpose so you have a reason to cast the other spells and idk if that is true but if it is why have upcasting at all? does anyone know the real reason upcasting is so wack in 5e? was it this weird in older editions? i dont really think theres a point in making a spell if its made just to be forgotten fast 5th level.
Upcasting a spell should always underperform when compared to casting a higher level spell - the higher level spell should always be better than the lower level spell, upcast. You upcast if you are out of lower level slots, or if you simply don't have an appropriate spell of higher level. They simply aren't meant to 'keep up'. As for spells like Haste, allowing them to target additional targets risk making them too powerful (the spell is already quite powerful).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Spells should aim to do different things such as control or deal damage. Haste is a subpar spell it uses con and comes with a drawback once you lose con or its over the extra movement is nice and the little AC bump the extra attack isnt going crazy unless its on things like a rogue who uses their main action to hold their attack and uses the haste action to attack on their turn other then that you get more out of hypnotic pattern or fear or any shut down spell. If haste could be upcasted to target another person it doesnt come close to any 4th lvl spell polymorph being a big one.
You clearly have never seen a Hasted barbarian or fighter go "Will It Blend?" on an enemy formation. Fear and Hypnotic Pattern can be powerful, but many enemies are resistant or immune to the effects. Haste is a powerful spell when used right (though thankfully no longer broken the way it was in 3.0 rules).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Regarding Ensnaring Strike specifically, it's a Smite type spell. The point of using it is not to affect multiple targets, it's to affect a single particular target. Ergo, increasing the immediate DPR effect of the spell is both beneficial to its function and balanced within 5e's paradigm for inflicting status effects.
Within the larger scope of damage scaling upcasts, I believe the point is also to keep multiclass caster builds from falling too far behind in DPR- you can squeeze about as much damage out of a 5th level Fireball as you can from Cone of Cold, though CoC has much better coverage. Upcasting most spells is not so much about making them "good"; it's about making them less bad when you don't have access to an appropriately leveled spell for the occasion.
If you don't think upcasting a spell is worth it, there's a simple solution. Cast something else. Don't use it. For most other editions, it didn't even exist.
iv seen plenty of people cast haste on a barb and fighter (haste twin spelled) and even that made it feel like it was worth casting tho next turn they also ended the fight with fireball dealing more damage and basically wasted sorcery points/spell slot on haste
the spell doesnt do anything on a hit like a normal smite spell tho it can be used with ranged attacks but even then theres still a solid chance you just wasted a spell slot also the upcast doesnt follow the main point of the spell which is to restrain a creature but upcasting just makes the small amount of damage it deals slightly more? it should make the spell harder to get out of imo like how the spell says larger creatures have advantage that could go away in upcast or something at least
really? upcasting wasnt in older editions at all? also that really should be the case with spells imo id love to see spells designed to be upcast to gain more effects
btw sorry if it sounds like im being negative or trying to say everyone is wrong bc yall arent i just wish WOTC took the time to be a little more friendly to upcasting so it would add on different effects or grow in size or something beyond mosts basic damage increase
You want more effects the more something is upcast, right?
What exactly do you want from what spell, upcasting effects-wise?
Do you want Fireball to emit heavily obsucring smoke when upcast at 5th level, or something similar?
Please be specific.
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more effects or to play into what the spell is trying to do
Burning hands aka 15ft cone 3d6 with an upcast of 1d6 its bad right from the start tho add on 10ft size increase for the cone per level along with the damage increase? and its a spell worth upcasting in ways that isnt broken.
Ensnaring strike aka BA on hit to attempt to restrain a target with a lil reward of 1d6 if it works large or larger monsters get advantage on breaking out. The snare gets stronger the higher the upcast bc thats what the spell is actually about the idea of restraining so the upcast effects that and at higher levels it gives a debuff to small targets. Since 5e doesnt really do minus numbers as a debuff disadvantage will be fine the higher the casting the larger the creature it effects now a 2nd lvl is a normal roll for a large monster and disadvantage for smaller and to balance it out? remove the damage fully
Steel wind strike aka teleport around and smack 5 people no upcast. pretty simple let them target an extra person or increase the range.
Fireball aka 8d6 20ft radius 150ft range 1d6 upcast. I think its fine the way it is its a big boom spell and bc its stronger then its suppose to be at that level its upcast just keeps it consistent at higher levels
There are plenty of other ideas i have but im not going to spam the general chat with homebrew ideas just wanted to give my thoughts.
In older editions, there was no need for upcasting because damage scaled with caster level even just casting at the original spell level. Then they put caps on how far it would upscale. And now upscaling costs a higher level spell slot.
So it has actually been being nerfed over the various editions.
Can't say i agree with your take OP.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
thats ok not everyone will. Whats your opinion of the current state of upcasting?
That while it is not perfect, it keeps some of the higher level spells from feeling useless, and the scaling being what it is, means classes like the Warlock aren't even more broken and overpowered than they are now.
I to this day flabberghast some of my DMs when i play my cards right and as a Warlock obliterate one of their bosses by finding a weakness then pumping an upcast spell of that type on them. If upcasting were more powerful, then i would never be allowed to play warlock again, because they would just be TOO potent.
Any adjustment to it would have to be done carefully, so things like Blight or Shatter, which have additional effects against certain creature types don't become more of a delete button than they are now.
It is not bad, it is just quirky and sometimes annoying, but I understand why it is the way it is. I have seen other formulations to do it and they were complicated and didn't always deliver better results, and in a game where the rules aren't simple, each additional layer of complication really stacks up and bogs down combat.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I wonder how much of your problem with upcasting comes from mediocre game experience. In one of your posts, you mention a spellcaster obliterated an enemy with fireball, making haste feel wasted. That is not an upcasting problem - that is a poor encounter design problem. A good encounter should allow parties to work together to abuse things like the absurdly powerful Haste, and should not be broken by a frankly overrated spell like Fireball. Fireball has its place, when there are large groups of low-HP enemies, but it is really just damage. If damage is enough to win a fight, the fight is poorly designed.
Upcasting is fine as it is. The balance encourages you to choose new spells as you get them, keeping the game from feeling stagnant and allowing you to feel like you are growing as a character. At the same time, it improves upon spells with unique effects, so you do not feel like you are completely leaving behind those mechanically unique spells. Sure, some are better balanced than others—but there are plenty of perfectly great low level spells that scale fairly well. Additionally, not every spell scales with damage - Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, for example, scales number of targets.
Overall, if your DM is not making encounters dynamic and complex enough that you have to make the tactical choice of what unique spell effect to use (which might be a high level spell or might be an upcast low level spell, perhaps sacrificing damage for the effect), the problem is not the game system.
We don't know anything about the encounter design. All we can draw from it is that one person thought it a good idea to cast the long-game spell Haste, then someone managed to end the encounter before it could shine with a short-game spell, Fireball. Sounds like the problem was the party wasn't communicating and so wasted the spell slot - or happenstance just meant that the Haste was superfluous. Upcasting doesn't sound like it was the issue though.
I will say that there are spells that I wish that could be upcast for better effects. I'm quite content with the idea of upcasting being inferior to spells of the native level. That creates choice - do I learn a new spell to upgrade my ability in that area, or do I learn a spell of a different area and just rely on upcasting for the first area? However, for similar reasons, it would be nice if there weee upcasting options for each spell.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I can think of times when upcasting was extremely useful, but it was very situational -- which is how it should be, IMO. Upcasting should be something you do rarely, because most of the time casting a 5th-level spell should be a better idea than casting a 2nd-level spell at 5th level
One specific example where upcasting was useful -- party was fighting a boss whose AC was jacked up by a bunch of floating animated shields surrounding them. Even a hit would just cause one shield to block it and become inert, so after a round of frustrating combat for the melee guys, my wizard upcast magic missile -- not to do more damage, but to ping the shields with individual hits and take them out, leaving the boss exposed (I did one extra missile beyond what was necessary, just to basically flick them in the forehead and say, "You might want to surrender now")
If you want different effects, cast a different spell tailored to that purpose. Tacking extra effects onto a spell just as a reward or something for upcasting it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The other thing that the Upcasting mechanic did was consolidate similar spells at multiple levels with a single spell that could be Upcast, which helped for characters with a much more limited number of Spells Known than 3.5e typically did.
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