What do you think the worst/most boring level is, either to play or DM? I'm going with level 4. The monsters are starting to get tanky, but the party doesn't have any big damage abilities, so it's not particularly fun.
Neither players nor monsters have interesting abilities.
Players (and monsters - but they're not really an issue) are very flimsy making combat very swingy. I'm one for combat being more dangerous than in 5e, but in the first few levels it's all dice and too swingy. Even minions are capable of killing you in one blow, unless you go really tanky.
There just aren't so many levers to pull to make an interesting story.
I like levels 4 through 8. Dangerous, but not to the point where combat is likely to kill you. Everyone has some interesting and distinct abilities. As DM, I can thrash the party about a bit and not worry about getting them killed. You usually have interesting levers to pull. Unlike later levels, they haven't moved into superhero range. It's more fun all round, in my opinion.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Neither players nor monsters have interesting abilities.
Players (and monsters - but they're not really an issue) are very flimsy making combat very swingy. I'm one for combat being more dangerous than in 5e, but in the first few levels it's all dice and too swingy. Even minions are capable of killing you in one blow, unless you go really tanky.
There just aren't so many levers to pull to make an interesting story.
I like levels 4 through 8. Dangerous, but not to the point where combat is likely to kill you. Everyone has some interesting and distinct abilities. As DM, I can thrash the party about a bit and not worry about getting them killed. You usually have interesting levers to pull. Unlike later levels, they haven't moved into superhero range. It's more fun all round, in my opinion.
For me it’s Level 2 for a lot of the same reasons mentioned here. You’re still squishy, one or two bad dice rolls will be enough to kill you, and although you’ve got a couple of things you can do spell casters will still burn through spell slots quickly and Martials are only attacking once. Why do I think it’s worse than level 1? Because you’re so close to unlocking that subclass that’ll make your character unique but it’s frustrating out of reach
Levels 16-20 are the worst. Every fight feels like it is a battle with nuclear hand grenades where each side does so much damage that it simply comes down to which side hits first to determine the outcome.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I'd say Level 2. Following the exciting 1st Level new begining, you hit this spot before your Level 3 Subclass and Level 4 Feat and Level 5 Extra Attack or other cornerstone ability etc
I agree with level 2, for reasons already stated. Especially since all subclasses are now level 3 in 2024 classes. The subclass is the real core of your class identity, the thing that makes the class truly yours, and it's locked out of reach by xp/story milestone and you've already left behind the fresh-new-novelty of level 1.
I hard disagree about level 20. I've played a few level 20 campaigns and they were incredibly fun, among my favourite sessions. You get lots more options for tackling problems, the story gets more epic as stakes are higher - it's no longer 'a few bandits' but now saving worlds from multiversal threats - jaunting through realms and planes with ease. Death itself is no longer the end of your career but a hurdle to overcome. With a good DM, it's no longer "big damage numbers go burr" and more about solving problems in new ways. Gold no longer matters: You're no longer doing basic quests for a few shinies. You're facing invasion forces from other worlds, banishing evil gods or stopping eldritch cosmic horrors from unravelling existence. Undisputedly the best D&D I've ever played.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
It's nice to see someone say that tier 4 is fun. It sounds really fun, but I've never even made it close. Can't wait to experience high-level spells and monsters.
Levels 16-20 are the worst. Every fight feels like it is a battle with nuclear hand grenades where each side does so much damage that it simply comes down to which side hits first to determine the outcome.
There are two problems with tier four play, neither of which is inherent to the level range themselves. The primary problem, exhibited here, is that DMs do not know how to deal with high level play, resulting in combats that are pure damage slugfests or simply saying “guess we are at level 20, campaign over.” This does not have to be the case - there are all kinds of things that can be done to turn high level play into an extremely challenging, dynamic environment, forcing players to utilize the skills they have learned over the course of an entire campaign to overcome challenges. DMs, unfortunately, often do not realize they need to evolve with more than simply scaling up the monsters, resulting in the issues on display above.
Which gets us to the secondary problem - lack of real support from Wizards for high level play. Sure, they cursory throw out some high level monsters every now and then, but there is no real guidance on what high level campaigns need. Aggressive circumstances that make resource management important since the party cannot afford to rest. Dynamic fights that require completion of a secondary objective beyond “kill the monster,” creating fights that are more of a puzzle than straight combat. Greater use of tools like exhaustion to mitigate player power.
This is all information that should be contained in the DMG. Though, since it is not, I would love to see a supplement aimed at high level play, sort of like the Elder Evils from 3.5, with a lot of official advice and advanced tools for high level content.
Personally, and speaking from the perspective of someone DMing a campaign that has been at level 20 for three months of weekly sessions, this is my favorite level of play. As the DM, I can be as creative and brutal as I want, and they have enough answers that the fights can still be fair. From a story perspective, we are dealing with some truly large scale issues and having the payoffs of over 150 sessions worth of character development and world building. This is the most fun we have had thus far, and it is going to feel bittersweet when the campaign wraps up in a couple weeks.
——
For my least favorite level, I would say it is a toss up between one and two, for all the reasons outlined above. To add the DM perspective, I tend to be a particularly brutal DM - but, to paraphrase Patrick Rothfuss, I want to play a beautiful game. Tossing multiple CR 30s at a party of level 20s, who stand a chance of winning but might have fatalities in the process is fun for both me and my players. Tossing a CR 1 thug, rolling a natural 20, and dropping a player from nearly full health, and then either playing the monster stupidly (not going finishing off the downed player) or outright killing a player because of a lucky roll? There’s no beauty in that kill.
When DMing, I now just skip over levels 1 and 2, going directly to 3. The gameplay experience is better for the players and the balance is more fair for the DM.
Because level 20 you reached end of the characters game. I don’t know anyone who plays 21+., so you start over at level (x), hence roll, create whatever you do for a new character, because the one at level 20 is done.
It’s bad because few play that high and you never get your Capstone (say a monk +4 to both wisdom and Dex. So to it would be the wotst because you have great gifts waiting for you, that you only see in the store window.
I don’t interpret your meaning ( which is more of difficult or hard). Me worst is if I can’t get to that level it sucks. And the worse.
It’s obvious level 20, because either you never get there or if you do, you’re rerolling another character. Easy choice.
I'm not sure I understand the bit about rolling another character. Also, never reaching 20 doesn't mean it's a bad level.
Many groups will call it a day when they hit that level. My group has once, but there is some interest in keeping this one going as 20th level characters. We'll see I guess, we're at 14th right now.
It’s obvious level 20, because either you never get there or if you do, you’re rerolling another character. Easy choice.
I'm not sure I understand the bit about rolling another character. Also, never reaching 20 doesn't mean it's a bad level.
Many groups will call it a day when they hit that level. My group has once, but there is some interest in keeping this one going as 20th level characters. We'll see I guess, we're at 14th right now.
You can definitely keep it going. It takes a bit of homebrew, and is mostly "I get more spell slots, and more epic boons/feats" but you can try to knock a god from their throne 😁
I don't have a least favorite level, I basically HATE any level the DM isn't good at running.
I have had DMs who could not run low level to save their lives, and DMs who ground to a halt at high level play.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Because level 20 you reached end of the characters game. I don’t know anyone who plays 21+., so you start over at level (x), hence roll, create whatever you do for a new character, because the one at level 20 is done.
It’s bad because few play that high and you never get your Capstone (say a monk +4 to both wisdom and Dex. So to it would be the wotst because you have great gifts waiting for you, that you only see in the store window.
I don’t interpret your meaning ( which is more of difficult or hard). Me worst is if I can’t get to that level it sucks. And the worse.
Hopefully that clears it all up
In a campaign that goes to level 20, shouldn't the final fight be happening at level 20? I can't imagine a DM having the party beat the final boss and then reach level 20 if the campaign is going to end right there.
I had to stop and think about this. I enjoy levels1/2 because they are the most dangerous, I enjoy tier 4+ because it’s got the widest variety of options to work with..levels 3-6/7 all your major subclass and class features are coming online so that is fun. Probably levels 8-15 are my least enjoyable, you are mostly just grinding as leveling is taking longer and longer so your only slowly getting new features and how many new mid to upper level foes can you find that you don’t already have solutions for so they become a challenge. As a DM I sometimes turn it into a sort of pvp bit by having them deal with an opposing set of (N)PCs of the same level just to create some real challenges. I do run epic level play very occasionally and, as a DM, it’s hard because the PCs are so capable giving them real challenges can be difficult.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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What do you think the worst/most boring level is, either to play or DM? I'm going with level 4. The monsters are starting to get tanky, but the party doesn't have any big damage abilities, so it's not particularly fun.
For me, it's level 1.
Neither players nor monsters have interesting abilities.
Players (and monsters - but they're not really an issue) are very flimsy making combat very swingy. I'm one for combat being more dangerous than in 5e, but in the first few levels it's all dice and too swingy. Even minions are capable of killing you in one blow, unless you go really tanky.
There just aren't so many levers to pull to make an interesting story.
I like levels 4 through 8. Dangerous, but not to the point where combat is likely to kill you. Everyone has some interesting and distinct abilities. As DM, I can thrash the party about a bit and not worry about getting them killed. You usually have interesting levers to pull. Unlike later levels, they haven't moved into superhero range. It's more fun all round, in my opinion.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Levels 5 and 6 are great. Not sure about past 6, because I've never gone higher than that.
For me it’s Level 2 for a lot of the same reasons mentioned here. You’re still squishy, one or two bad dice rolls will be enough to kill you, and although you’ve got a couple of things you can do spell casters will still burn through spell slots quickly and Martials are only attacking once. Why do I think it’s worse than level 1? Because you’re so close to unlocking that subclass that’ll make your character unique but it’s frustrating out of reach
It’s obvious level 20, because either you never get there or if you do, you’re rerolling another character. Easy choice.
I'm not sure I understand the bit about rolling another character. Also, never reaching 20 doesn't mean it's a bad level.
Levels 16-20 are the worst. Every fight feels like it is a battle with nuclear hand grenades where each side does so much damage that it simply comes down to which side hits first to determine the outcome.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I'd say Level 2. Following the exciting 1st Level new begining, you hit this spot before your Level 3 Subclass and Level 4 Feat and Level 5 Extra Attack or other cornerstone ability etc
I agree with level 2, for reasons already stated. Especially since all subclasses are now level 3 in 2024 classes. The subclass is the real core of your class identity, the thing that makes the class truly yours, and it's locked out of reach by xp/story milestone and you've already left behind the fresh-new-novelty of level 1.
I hard disagree about level 20. I've played a few level 20 campaigns and they were incredibly fun, among my favourite sessions. You get lots more options for tackling problems, the story gets more epic as stakes are higher - it's no longer 'a few bandits' but now saving worlds from multiversal threats - jaunting through realms and planes with ease. Death itself is no longer the end of your career but a hurdle to overcome. With a good DM, it's no longer "big damage numbers go burr" and more about solving problems in new ways. Gold no longer matters: You're no longer doing basic quests for a few shinies. You're facing invasion forces from other worlds, banishing evil gods or stopping eldritch cosmic horrors from unravelling existence. Undisputedly the best D&D I've ever played.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
It's nice to see someone say that tier 4 is fun. It sounds really fun, but I've never even made it close. Can't wait to experience high-level spells and monsters.
There are two problems with tier four play, neither of which is inherent to the level range themselves. The primary problem, exhibited here, is that DMs do not know how to deal with high level play, resulting in combats that are pure damage slugfests or simply saying “guess we are at level 20, campaign over.” This does not have to be the case - there are all kinds of things that can be done to turn high level play into an extremely challenging, dynamic environment, forcing players to utilize the skills they have learned over the course of an entire campaign to overcome challenges. DMs, unfortunately, often do not realize they need to evolve with more than simply scaling up the monsters, resulting in the issues on display above.
Which gets us to the secondary problem - lack of real support from Wizards for high level play. Sure, they cursory throw out some high level monsters every now and then, but there is no real guidance on what high level campaigns need. Aggressive circumstances that make resource management important since the party cannot afford to rest. Dynamic fights that require completion of a secondary objective beyond “kill the monster,” creating fights that are more of a puzzle than straight combat. Greater use of tools like exhaustion to mitigate player power.
This is all information that should be contained in the DMG. Though, since it is not, I would love to see a supplement aimed at high level play, sort of like the Elder Evils from 3.5, with a lot of official advice and advanced tools for high level content.
Personally, and speaking from the perspective of someone DMing a campaign that has been at level 20 for three months of weekly sessions, this is my favorite level of play. As the DM, I can be as creative and brutal as I want, and they have enough answers that the fights can still be fair. From a story perspective, we are dealing with some truly large scale issues and having the payoffs of over 150 sessions worth of character development and world building. This is the most fun we have had thus far, and it is going to feel bittersweet when the campaign wraps up in a couple weeks.
——
For my least favorite level, I would say it is a toss up between one and two, for all the reasons outlined above. To add the DM perspective, I tend to be a particularly brutal DM - but, to paraphrase Patrick Rothfuss, I want to play a beautiful game. Tossing multiple CR 30s at a party of level 20s, who stand a chance of winning but might have fatalities in the process is fun for both me and my players. Tossing a CR 1 thug, rolling a natural 20, and dropping a player from nearly full health, and then either playing the monster stupidly (not going finishing off the downed player) or outright killing a player because of a lucky roll? There’s no beauty in that kill.
When DMing, I now just skip over levels 1 and 2, going directly to 3. The gameplay experience is better for the players and the balance is more fair for the DM.
Because level 20 you reached end of the characters game. I don’t know anyone who plays 21+., so you start over at level (x), hence roll, create whatever you do for a new character, because the one at level 20 is done.
It’s bad because few play that high and you never get your Capstone (say a monk +4 to both wisdom and Dex. So to it would be the wotst because you have great gifts waiting for you, that you only see in the store window.
I don’t interpret your meaning ( which is more of difficult or hard). Me worst is if I can’t get to that level it sucks. And the worse.
Hopefully that clears it all up
1-3. Because I don't have anywhere near the skills I want for the chosen class. Possibly even 4 if I'm a spellcaster without access to level 3 spells.
Many groups will call it a day when they hit that level. My group has once, but there is some interest in keeping this one going as 20th level characters. We'll see I guess, we're at 14th right now.
You can definitely keep it going. It takes a bit of homebrew, and is mostly "I get more spell slots, and more epic boons/feats" but you can try to knock a god from their throne 😁
I don't have a least favorite level, I basically HATE any level the DM isn't good at running.
I have had DMs who could not run low level to save their lives, and DMs who ground to a halt at high level play.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I'm generally not fond of level 1, because it's so very swingy and the PCs have so few tools to do anything interesting with.
In a campaign that goes to level 20, shouldn't the final fight be happening at level 20? I can't imagine a DM having the party beat the final boss and then reach level 20 if the campaign is going to end right there.
I had to stop and think about this. I enjoy levels1/2 because they are the most dangerous, I enjoy tier 4+ because it’s got the widest variety of options to work with..levels 3-6/7 all your major subclass and class features are coming online so that is fun. Probably levels 8-15 are my least enjoyable, you are mostly just grinding as leveling is taking longer and longer so your only slowly getting new features and how many new mid to upper level foes can you find that you don’t already have solutions for so they become a challenge. As a DM I sometimes turn it into a sort of pvp bit by having them deal with an opposing set of (N)PCs of the same level just to create some real challenges. I do run epic level play very occasionally and, as a DM, it’s hard because the PCs are so capable giving them real challenges can be difficult.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.