My question is for those that have run both, or can speak to both...
What are the differences? Is one better than the other? Are their benefits of/for either?
Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Tomb of Annihilation is more a sequel to ToH. It was my first 5e campaign and depending on the DM it can be brutal thanks to the core mechanic it negates as part of it's premise.
It's about 60% hex crawl followed by a giant dungeon crawl that can certainly contain some nasty surprises. No shortage of content and my group enjoyed it immensely.
My question is for those that have run both, or can speak to both...
What are the differences? Is one better than the other? Are their benefits of/for either?
Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
Tomb of Horrors in Yawning Portal *is* Tomb of Horrors. Tomb of Annihilation is a spiritual sequel to Tomb of Horrors, with no direct connection. Neither leads into the other.
I recently scanned through both when designing a dungeon for level 20 players. I found both woefully lacking on the promised lethality.
Depending on the level of your characters, you should be careful running either dungeon straight out of the book. Tomb of Annihilation is designed for players level 1-11 - in my experience, Wizards vastly overestimates how lethal their design is, so I expect this would be completely unsuitable for anyone in Tier 3, let alone Tier 4.
Tomb of Horrors is designed for Tier 3 play, but, again, feels a bit underwhelming for its historical reputation. There are some good, classic D&D ideas here, but everything seems a bit toned down to a more “fair” level than the original tournament design of the Tomb.
All told, if you want a deadly dungeon crawl, I would recommend using both as a jumping off point, but increasing the lethality of either drastically or homebrewing your own with some of those ideas in mind.
The players are in Tier 4, so sounds like ToA is out, and I'll look into TftYP.
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
My question is for those that have run both, or can speak to both...
What are the differences? Is one better than the other? Are their benefits of/for either?
Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
You could just modify the original to 5e/2024 standards. But since you are just wanting to put them on a campaign, because they are getting too long in the tooth, I'd suggest just giving a big bad guy extra attack actions. Not to be confused with Legendary Action. I am talking pure Actions. Something like 3 actions per round. Meaning each Action is can be an attack action with bonus action or reaction, if get one. So if it has three attacks in one Attack action, then 3 Action would give them 9.
You could just modify the original to 5e/2024 standards. But since you are just wanting to put them on a campaign, because they are getting too long in the tooth, I'd suggest just giving a big bad guy extra attack actions. Not to be confused with Legendary Action. I am talking pure Actions. Something like 3 actions per round. Meaning each Action is can be an attack action with bonus action or reaction, if get one. So if it has three attacks in one Attack action, then 3 Action would give them 9.
I have a copy of the original, but just wanted to know what 5e version was closest. Thank you though :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
What is the best way to modify the lethality of a dungeon?
Generally speaking, your four mechanisms are (a) substituting higher CR monsters (I find at tier 4, you should not be throwing anything less than CR 20s at the party, even for minor fights), (b) increasing the damage traps and other obstacles do, (c) increasing the difficulty check scores, and (d) limiting players ability to take rests (ambushes, in-world time limit for completion, etc.) - high level play is more about the DM attacking the players’ resources in a protracted set of challenges than it is making a single hard encounter.
What is the best way to modify the lethality of a dungeon?
...
Strictly speaking WRT tomb of horrors you shouldn't; the whole point of that dungeon was Gygax creating something to torture players who got too big for their britches and every incarnation of it since AD&D has maintained that feel and vibe. The absurd cruelty and bizzare mechanics are the *point*.
Like, there are hundreds of modules out there that are intended to be fair and even with players. This isn't one of them.
But as a more general approach to D&D the thing I do as a GM when things are out of whack (whether I'm running a module or my own materials) is to simply change the numbers. If the boss looks like they're going to crit s*** the bed I'll change the math so that they're getting normal hits instead of one shotting players and if the players are in the process of obliterating him because ~again~ RNG is trivializing the fight I'll boost his health and/or give him a legendary resistance or two. Afterall: the job of the GM is to make rulings not fully uphold the rules.
What is the best way to modify the lethality of a dungeon?
Generally speaking, your four mechanisms are (a) substituting higher CR monsters (I find at tier 4, you should not be throwing anything less than CR 20s at the party, even for minor fights), (b) increasing the damage traps and other obstacles do, (c) increasing the difficulty check scores, and (d) limiting players ability to take rests (ambushes, in-world time limit for completion, etc.) - high level play is more about the DM attacking the players’ resources in a protracted set of challenges than it is making a single hard encounter.
My understanding is that even intentionally limiting the time available for long and short rests is not a very successful strategy against a well prepared party that includes at least 1 Wizard or Genie Warlock. Catnap and the G.Warlock's vessel make this very difficult without taking away one of these "toys" away from the players. Not to mention if they have something like a Twilight or Peace Cleric.
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Greetings,
I have an interest in running some players through the Tomb of Horrors as their characters' egos are getting a little big.
I have read that there are two 5e versions, the one that is contained within Tales from the Yawning Portal and the other is Tomb of Annihilation.
My question is for those that have run both, or can speak to both...
What are the differences?
Is one better than the other?
Are their benefits of/for either?
Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Tomb of Annihilation is more a sequel to ToH. It was my first 5e campaign and depending on the DM it can be brutal thanks to the core mechanic it negates as part of it's premise.
It's about 60% hex crawl followed by a giant dungeon crawl that can certainly contain some nasty surprises. No shortage of content and my group enjoyed it immensely.
Tomb of Horrors in Yawning Portal *is* Tomb of Horrors. Tomb of Annihilation is a spiritual sequel to Tomb of Horrors, with no direct connection. Neither leads into the other.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Fun fact: Tomb of Annhilation is actually a prequel to Tomb of horrors; in Annihilation Accerack is still a lich wheras in horrors he's a demi-lich.
I recently scanned through both when designing a dungeon for level 20 players. I found both woefully lacking on the promised lethality.
Depending on the level of your characters, you should be careful running either dungeon straight out of the book. Tomb of Annihilation is designed for players level 1-11 - in my experience, Wizards vastly overestimates how lethal their design is, so I expect this would be completely unsuitable for anyone in Tier 3, let alone Tier 4.
Tomb of Horrors is designed for Tier 3 play, but, again, feels a bit underwhelming for its historical reputation. There are some good, classic D&D ideas here, but everything seems a bit toned down to a more “fair” level than the original tournament design of the Tomb.
All told, if you want a deadly dungeon crawl, I would recommend using both as a jumping off point, but increasing the lethality of either drastically or homebrewing your own with some of those ideas in mind.
Thank you all for your feedback and information!
I greatly appreciate it :)
The players are in Tier 4, so sounds like ToA is out, and I'll look into TftYP.
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
There's also:
Return to the Tomb of Horrors (2e) and it's 3rd Party 5E conversion
Tomb of Horrors Revised (3.5e)
Tomb of Horrors (4e)
If you're happy to do your own updating of the mechanics (or use a conversion)
You could just modify the original to 5e/2024 standards. But since you are just wanting to put them on a campaign, because they are getting too long in the tooth, I'd suggest just giving a big bad guy extra attack actions. Not to be confused with Legendary Action. I am talking pure Actions. Something like 3 actions per round. Meaning each Action is can be an attack action with bonus action or reaction, if get one. So if it has three attacks in one Attack action, then 3 Action would give them 9.
I have a copy of the original, but just wanted to know what 5e version was closest.
Thank you though :)
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
What is the best way to modify the lethality of a dungeon?
Generally speaking, your four mechanisms are (a) substituting higher CR monsters (I find at tier 4, you should not be throwing anything less than CR 20s at the party, even for minor fights), (b) increasing the damage traps and other obstacles do, (c) increasing the difficulty check scores, and (d) limiting players ability to take rests (ambushes, in-world time limit for completion, etc.) - high level play is more about the DM attacking the players’ resources in a protracted set of challenges than it is making a single hard encounter.
...
Strictly speaking WRT tomb of horrors you shouldn't; the whole point of that dungeon was Gygax creating something to torture players who got too big for their britches and every incarnation of it since AD&D has maintained that feel and vibe. The absurd cruelty and bizzare mechanics are the *point*.
Like, there are hundreds of modules out there that are intended to be fair and even with players. This isn't one of them.
But as a more general approach to D&D the thing I do as a GM when things are out of whack (whether I'm running a module or my own materials) is to simply change the numbers. If the boss looks like they're going to crit s*** the bed I'll change the math so that they're getting normal hits instead of one shotting players and if the players are in the process of obliterating him because ~again~ RNG is trivializing the fight I'll boost his health and/or give him a legendary resistance or two. Afterall: the job of the GM is to make rulings not fully uphold the rules.
My understanding is that even intentionally limiting the time available for long and short rests is not a very successful strategy against a well prepared party that includes at least 1 Wizard or Genie Warlock. Catnap and the G.Warlock's vessel make this very difficult without taking away one of these "toys" away from the players. Not to mention if they have something like a Twilight or Peace Cleric.