Huh. Did not expect that. Been wanting what much of this implies for more than a decade but... I think i will reserve judgment till i see more.
Last time i got ultra Hyped for a setting release, i got nothing i expected and a whole bunch of things i would never have wished.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ask, & ye shall receive. Just don't expect it to be exactly the entire collective headcanon of the fandom or a 1:1 port of older takes, & minds shall be at ease.
It seems like a lot of recent UAs have been anti-"dump stat" mentality.
...
Sorcerer-King Warlock suffers from the same issue Scion of the Three does:Relying on Frightening creatures that, at higher tiers of play, are immune to that outright. ...
Overall, this does paint an interesting picture of post-Crawford design philosophy:
1. Moving away from focus on SAD build-focused design in order to discourage pigeonholing
...
I expect that Dark Sun will come with SOME kind of content warning like what Paizo put on Abomination Vaults. Because that is needed, regardless of the amount of darkness present.
Overall, 7.5/10.
This post is filled with stuff I don't know. What is anti-"dump stat" mentality?
What is Scion of the Three?
What is focus on SAD build-focused design and what do you mean by pigeonholing?
I downloaded the PDF and see nothing about Dark Sun. What or where is that?
Dark Sun is a post-apocalyptic campaign setting from 2e D&D. This Unearthed Arcana includes a lot of ideas and themes reminiscent of it (particularly the concept of "sorcerer kings") so although it doesn't use the words "dark sun" specifically, most people are assuming this is the prelude to the release of a 5e version of the Dark Sun setting.
This UA gets me mixed feelings toward crunch but fluff wise the thematic is cool enought, especially if it herald the return of DARK SUN setting! My last forray into the burned world was during 4E Ashes of Athas so its a while ago.
The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
Sorcerer-Kings, Preservers, and Defilers are all specific terms for Dark Sun concepts. Seems unlikely they’d invoke them if they weren’t planning to use the setting.
Ask, & ye shall receive. Just don't expect it to be exactly the entire collective headcanon of the fandom or a 1:1 port of older takes, & minds shall be at ease.
It seems like a lot of recent UAs have been anti-"dump stat" mentality.
...
Sorcerer-King Warlock suffers from the same issue Scion of the Three does:Relying on Frightening creatures that, at higher tiers of play, are immune to that outright. ...
Overall, this does paint an interesting picture of post-Crawford design philosophy:
1. Moving away from focus on SAD build-focused design in order to discourage pigeonholing
...
I expect that Dark Sun will come with SOME kind of content warning like what Paizo put on Abomination Vaults. Because that is needed, regardless of the amount of darkness present.
Overall, 7.5/10.
This post is filled with stuff I don't know. What is anti-"dump stat" mentality?
What is Scion of the Three?
What is focus on SAD build-focused design and what do you mean by pigeonholing?
What is Dark Sun?
Anti- Dump stat mentality refers to moves to try and discourage people creating a character with one incredibly low stat (quite often intelligence) that allows players using point buy to really boost one useful stat and not suffer much in the way of mechanical penalties in game. By creating subclasses like the Gladiator that require a high stat in something a fighter wouldn't normally prioritise, in this case charisma, you avoid that.
Scion of the Three is a new Rogue subclass that was in a recent UA and is coming out in the upcoming Forgotten Realms books
SAD builds (stands for Single Attribute Dependent) are classes and subclasses that can get away with focusing entirely on a single stat and boosting that really high at the expenxse of others. For instance a Wizard with a 20 in Intelligence can pretty much ignore almost every other stat because they can either use spells to cover the deficiency or just steer clear of situations that would require anything else. This often pigeonholes classes into only being good at one thing
Dark Sun is a post apocalyptic setting for D&D that goes back to 2e and that many people thought would never be updated to the modern game. A lot of the subclasses in the new UA have a very Dark Sun feeling theme to them making a lot of people think that's what they've been designed for
I downloaded the PDF and see nothing about Dark Sun. What or where is that?
ok, as someone who was around for the original Dark-Sun, there are key words in the PDF that are strong indicators to those that know, but wouldn't mean a thing to those that don't so i understand your confusion. I will do my best to break it down.
Defilement and Preservation themes, and the Magical post apocalypse. DEFILED SORCERY (SORCERER) Siphon Life into Catastrophic Spells: Defilement magic is a big part of the Darksun lore, and is why a once verdant land is now a scorched desert. People who used this kinda of magic were often celled "Defilers"
CIRCLE OF PRESERVATION (DRUID) Safeguard Nature and Heal the World: There was an opposing philosophy to the Defilers call the Preserves, who would use magic to safe guard life and try to provide little pockets of life that were left in the desert. Sometimes they would attempt to heal areas, return habitibility to them.
APOCALYPTIC SUBCLASSES: Since Darksun is a Post-Apocolytic setting, using this term along the others in the document are almost a direct nudge and wink.
Sorcerer Kings: Sorcerer kings rules most of the major settlements and were often responsible for the collapse of the eco-system and they benefitted by providing through their magic, a safer place for people to live, but that also meant that they had desperate people willing to obey, and because of that, plenty of test subjects.
SORCERER-KING PATRON Herald Tyrannical Might of Monstrous Rulers: This is a pretty clear reference to the lore tidbit i just laid out. The Sorcerer kings of the cities were utterly vile and they would Aptly be described as Monstrous Rulers.
the things not included, but have been brought up in other UA's are the Psion. Psionics played a huge part of the darksun campaign, letting people use magic like abilities that had their own system, and it did not harm the land. They were outside the Defiler/preserver dichotomy.
We could be wrong about all this, but there are a lot of keywords and concepts that lead us to believe Darksun is being teased.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Frankly, I predict the largest issues that are likely to get the "fans" of DS up in arms are the mechanical end- the setting premise is built around scarcity on multiple fronts. Iron is about as common in the setting as mythril is in the Forgotten Realms at best, there's no divine magic because the gods are all dead, and using much arcane magic harms the land which as a bonus makes it heavily stigmatized. It's practically its own derivative version of D&D (not derogatory). Meanwhile, much of the reason 5e has taken off so well is because it keeps the gameplay fairly simple and consistent and doesn't throw up obstacles to playing the class you want- or as some put it "caters to the masses". These are two pretty irreconcilable qualities. There's basically no mechanism for destroying weapons in 5e, they've yet to throw up any "don't play these classes in this setting for an authentic experience" sidebars, and while a few settings have twists or limitations to trying to use certain magics, it's typically fairly narrow and low impact in scope.
Honestly, they should left this one to the DM's Guild or whatever that semi-official 3PP marketplace is, imo. The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I completely agree with you. A friend of mine in high school was very much into dark sun back in the 2e days. The problematic cultural aspects didn't phase me at all. it's a game in a fantasy world. When he told me I couldn't have a steel sword I was like, uh...no. I'm not doing that. It was a really easy call in my 16yo head. If no sword, I am not on board.
I expect a 5e version of Dark Sun to look a lot more like ERB's Barsoom novels rather than legit 2e dark sun. I'm sure they'll keep the big ones such as evil sorcerer kings running major cities, but a lot of stuff that made the setting unique I fully expect hasbro to reject. Honestly, the conclusion I've come to is that I wish they'd leave established lore alone. I used to really love Forgotten Realms back in the 2e days. Now, with retcon on top of retcon...I'm kind kind of tired of it. I wish they'd have stuck with the PoL setting from 4e where they can set whatever lore they want without ruining beloved canon from established realms. I'd much rather not know what's going on in Faerun, rather than have to read about Mystra getting shanked yet again to "change it up".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I downloaded the PDF and see nothing about Dark Sun. What or where is that?
ok, as someone who was around for the original Dark-Sun, there are key words in the PDF that are strong indicators to those that know, but wouldn't mean a thing to those that don't so i understand your confusion. I will do my best to break it down.
Defilement and Preservation themes, and the Magical post apocalypse. DEFILED SORCERY (SORCERER) Siphon Life into Catastrophic Spells: Defilement magic is a big part of the Darksun lore, and is why a once verdant land is now a scorched desert. People who used this kinda of magic were often celled "Defilers"
CIRCLE OF PRESERVATION (DRUID) Safeguard Nature and Heal the World: There was an opposing philosophy to the Defilers call the Preserves, who would use magic to safe guard life and try to provide little pockets of life that were left in the desert. Sometimes they would attempt to heal areas, return habitibility to them.
APOCALYPTIC SUBCLASSES: Since Darksun is a Post-Apocolytic setting, using this term along the others in the document are almost a direct nudge and wink.
Sorcerer Kings: Sorcerer kings rules most of the major settlements and were often responsible for the collapse of the eco-system and they benefitted by providing through their magic, a safer place for people to live, but that also meant that they had desperate people willing to obey, and because of that, plenty of test subjects.
SORCERER-KING PATRON Herald Tyrannical Might of Monstrous Rulers: This is a pretty clear reference to the lore tidbit i just laid out. The Sorcerer kings of the cities were utterly vile and they would Aptly be described as Monstrous Rulers.
the things not included, but have been brought up in other UA's are the Psion. Psionics played a huge part of the darksun campaign, letting people use magic like abilities that had their own system, and it did not harm the land. They were outside the Defiler/preserver dichotomy.
We could be wrong about all this, but there are a lot of keywords and concepts that lead us to believe Darksun is being teased.
I had the same discussion with my DM last night. He said there's too much magic to be dark sun. I said they're talking about preserving, defiling and have sorcerer-kings as patrons. It's 100% dark sun terminology. When they call the spell list "defiler spells", it's hard to argue for anything other than some sort of dark sun content.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
Sorcerer-Kings, Preservers, and Defilers are all specific terms for Dark Sun concepts. Seems unlikely they’d invoke them if they weren’t planning to use the setting.
And then add in the psionic playtest they just ran, as psionics were a big part of Dark Sun as well.
Frankly, I predict the largest issues that are likely to get the "fans" of DS up in arms are the mechanical end- the setting premise is built around scarcity on multiple fronts. Iron is about as common in the setting as mythril is in the Forgotten Realms at best, there's no divine magic because the gods are all dead, and using much arcane magic harms the land which as a bonus makes it heavily stigmatized. It's practically its own derivative version of D&D (not derogatory). Meanwhile, much of the reason 5e has taken off so well is because it keeps the gameplay fairly simple and consistent and doesn't throw up obstacles to playing the class you want- or as some put it "caters to the masses". These are two pretty irreconcilable qualities. There's basically no mechanism for destroying weapons in 5e, they've yet to throw up any "don't play these classes in this setting for an authentic experience" sidebars, and while a few settings have twists or limitations to trying to use certain magics, it's typically fairly narrow and low impact in scope.
Honestly, they should left this one to the DM's Guild or whatever that semi-official 3PP marketplace is, imo. The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I completely agree with you. A friend of mine in high school was very much into dark sun back in the 2e days. The problematic cultural aspects didn't phase me at all. it's a game in a fantasy world. When he told me I couldn't have a steel sword I was like, uh...no. I'm not doing that. It was a really easy call in my 16yo head. If no sword, I am not on board.
I expect a 5e version of Dark Sun to look a lot more like ERB's Barsoom novels rather than legit 2e dark sun. I'm sure they'll keep the big ones such as evil sorcerer kings running major cities, but a lot of stuff that made the setting unique I fully expect hasbro to reject. Honestly, the conclusion I've come to is that I wish they'd leave established lore alone. I used to really love Forgotten Realms back in the 2e days. Now, with retcon on top of retcon...I'm kind kind of tired of it. I wish they'd have stuck with the PoL setting from 4e where they can set whatever lore they want without ruining beloved canon from established realms. I'd much rather not know what's going on in Faerun, rather than have to read about Mystra getting shanked yet again to "change it up".
The resource tracking is what I'm pretty interested to see. In the 2e Dark Sun, those non-metal swords and armor would break. So you kind of had to carry spares. And of course rations and water were such a big deal and you also had to carry that. But in the current edition, many people (myself included, I'm not criticizing) don't track things like rations or arrows or much of anything. But in Dark Sun, the resource scarcity was such a major factor. And then, if you're going to track those resources, you also need to track encumbrance (which is also mostly ignored) for it to be meaningful.
I'm really curious to see how they thread that needle between 5e's hand waving that kind of stuff and it being so integral to the Dark Sun setting.
Frankly, I predict the largest issues that are likely to get the "fans" of DS up in arms are the mechanical end- the setting premise is built around scarcity on multiple fronts. Iron is about as common in the setting as mythril is in the Forgotten Realms at best, there's no divine magic because the gods are all dead, and using much arcane magic harms the land which as a bonus makes it heavily stigmatized. It's practically its own derivative version of D&D (not derogatory). Meanwhile, much of the reason 5e has taken off so well is because it keeps the gameplay fairly simple and consistent and doesn't throw up obstacles to playing the class you want- or as some put it "caters to the masses". These are two pretty irreconcilable qualities. There's basically no mechanism for destroying weapons in 5e, they've yet to throw up any "don't play these classes in this setting for an authentic experience" sidebars, and while a few settings have twists or limitations to trying to use certain magics, it's typically fairly narrow and low impact in scope.
Honestly, they should left this one to the DM's Guild or whatever that semi-official 3PP marketplace is, imo. The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I completely agree with you. A friend of mine in high school was very much into dark sun back in the 2e days. The problematic cultural aspects didn't phase me at all. it's a game in a fantasy world. When he told me I couldn't have a steel sword I was like, uh...no. I'm not doing that. It was a really easy call in my 16yo head. If no sword, I am not on board.
I expect a 5e version of Dark Sun to look a lot more like ERB's Barsoom novels rather than legit 2e dark sun. I'm sure they'll keep the big ones such as evil sorcerer kings running major cities, but a lot of stuff that made the setting unique I fully expect hasbro to reject. Honestly, the conclusion I've come to is that I wish they'd leave established lore alone. I used to really love Forgotten Realms back in the 2e days. Now, with retcon on top of retcon...I'm kind kind of tired of it. I wish they'd have stuck with the PoL setting from 4e where they can set whatever lore they want without ruining beloved canon from established realms. I'd much rather not know what's going on in Faerun, rather than have to read about Mystra getting shanked yet again to "change it up".
The resource tracking is what I'm pretty interested to see. In the 2e Dark Sun, those non-metal swords and armor would break. So you kind of had to carry spares. And of course rations and water were such a big deal and you also had to carry that. But in the current edition, many people (myself included, I'm not criticizing) don't track things like rations or arrows or much of anything. But in Dark Sun, the resource scarcity was such a major factor. And then, if you're going to track those resources, you also need to track encumbrance (which is also mostly ignored) for it to be meaningful.
I'm really curious to see how they thread that needle between 5e's hand waving that kind of stuff and it being so integral to the Dark Sun setting.
If I have to hazard a guess they will hand-waive and put that in the hands of the DM. Most people will look at the books as sources of new subclasses and maybe spells and feats and ignore the setting itself. That's just a guess though, and it's a guess that will make most dark sun FANS, very disappointed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Frankly, I predict the largest issues that are likely to get the "fans" of DS up in arms are the mechanical end- the setting premise is built around scarcity on multiple fronts. Iron is about as common in the setting as mythril is in the Forgotten Realms at best, there's no divine magic because the gods are all dead, and using much arcane magic harms the land which as a bonus makes it heavily stigmatized. It's practically its own derivative version of D&D (not derogatory). Meanwhile, much of the reason 5e has taken off so well is because it keeps the gameplay fairly simple and consistent and doesn't throw up obstacles to playing the class you want- or as some put it "caters to the masses". These are two pretty irreconcilable qualities. There's basically no mechanism for destroying weapons in 5e, they've yet to throw up any "don't play these classes in this setting for an authentic experience" sidebars, and while a few settings have twists or limitations to trying to use certain magics, it's typically fairly narrow and low impact in scope.
Honestly, they should left this one to the DM's Guild or whatever that semi-official 3PP marketplace is, imo. The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I completely agree with you. A friend of mine in high school was very much into dark sun back in the 2e days. The problematic cultural aspects didn't phase me at all. it's a game in a fantasy world. When he told me I couldn't have a steel sword I was like, uh...no. I'm not doing that. It was a really easy call in my 16yo head. If no sword, I am not on board.
I expect a 5e version of Dark Sun to look a lot more like ERB's Barsoom novels rather than legit 2e dark sun. I'm sure they'll keep the big ones such as evil sorcerer kings running major cities, but a lot of stuff that made the setting unique I fully expect hasbro to reject. Honestly, the conclusion I've come to is that I wish they'd leave established lore alone. I used to really love Forgotten Realms back in the 2e days. Now, with retcon on top of retcon...I'm kind kind of tired of it. I wish they'd have stuck with the PoL setting from 4e where they can set whatever lore they want without ruining beloved canon from established realms. I'd much rather not know what's going on in Faerun, rather than have to read about Mystra getting shanked yet again to "change it up".
The resource tracking is what I'm pretty interested to see. In the 2e Dark Sun, those non-metal swords and armor would break. So you kind of had to carry spares. And of course rations and water were such a big deal and you also had to carry that. But in the current edition, many people (myself included, I'm not criticizing) don't track things like rations or arrows or much of anything. But in Dark Sun, the resource scarcity was such a major factor. And then, if you're going to track those resources, you also need to track encumbrance (which is also mostly ignored) for it to be meaningful.
I'm really curious to see how they thread that needle between 5e's hand waving that kind of stuff and it being so integral to the Dark Sun setting.
If I have to hazard a guess they will hand-waive and put that in the hands of the DM. Most people will look at the books as sources of new subclasses and maybe spells and feats and ignore the setting itself. That's just a guess though, and it's a guess that will make most dark sun FANS, very disappointed.
A quick look at the 4 subclasses and a fluff reskinning could easily transform the Gladiator into a Swashbuckler (remember previous editions had this skin for fighters in addition to rogues) and the Defiler into a necromancer that isn't pet dependent. Warlocks are easy to reskin anyways, any tyrant with a lot of mystical mojo can be the patron. Gilgeam in the Realms, any number of devils in Pathfinder's nation of Cheliax (I am sure there is at least one group running that world under 5E), and ancient dragons that want to rule in nearly any setting. Even the preserver druid leans into being more of a cleric than other druids. I don't think this is a bad thing, as otherwise subclasses from a given game world might be locked into that world only.
The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
Sorcerer-Kings, Preservers, and Defilers are all specific terms for Dark Sun concepts. Seems unlikely they’d invoke them if they weren’t planning to use the setting.
Those concepts are hardly unique to Dark Sun though
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
Sorcerer-Kings, Preservers, and Defilers are all specific terms for Dark Sun concepts. Seems unlikely they’d invoke them if they weren’t planning to use the setting.
Those concepts are hardly unique to Dark Sun though
No, but all 3 terms showing up in a D&D context points very strongly to the setting that used them as major elements.
The basic setting aesthetic could have been pretty easily replicated on a fresh world, without all the baggage that's gonna get people coming out of the woodwork complaining the setting has been "ruined" because you don't have to learn a whole new set of rules to play in it as printed.
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
Sorcerer-Kings, Preservers, and Defilers are all specific terms for Dark Sun concepts. Seems unlikely they’d invoke them if they weren’t planning to use the setting.
Those concepts are hardly unique to Dark Sun though
No, but all 3 terms showing up in a D&D context points very strongly to the setting that used them as major elements.
Also the fact that gladiator was a class option in previous Dark Sun books and the UA is explicitly called Apocalyptic subclasses. It 100% points towards Dark Sun
Huh. Did not expect that. Been wanting what much of this implies for more than a decade but... I think i will reserve judgment till i see more.
Last time i got ultra Hyped for a setting release, i got nothing i expected and a whole bunch of things i would never have wished.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I downloaded the PDF and see nothing about Dark Sun. What or where is that?
I mean, that could be exactly what they're doing. Nothing in the UA is explicitly Dark Sun branded that I can see
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This post is filled with stuff I don't know. What is anti-"dump stat" mentality?
What is Scion of the Three?
What is focus on SAD build-focused design and what do you mean by pigeonholing?
What is Dark Sun?
Dark Sun is a post-apocalyptic campaign setting from 2e D&D. This Unearthed Arcana includes a lot of ideas and themes reminiscent of it (particularly the concept of "sorcerer kings") so although it doesn't use the words "dark sun" specifically, most people are assuming this is the prelude to the release of a 5e version of the Dark Sun setting.
pronouns: he/she/they
This UA gets me mixed feelings toward crunch but fluff wise the thematic is cool enought, especially if it herald the return of DARK SUN setting! My last forray into the burned world was during 4E Ashes of Athas so its a while ago.
Sorcerer-Kings, Preservers, and Defilers are all specific terms for Dark Sun concepts. Seems unlikely they’d invoke them if they weren’t planning to use the setting.
Anti- Dump stat mentality refers to moves to try and discourage people creating a character with one incredibly low stat (quite often intelligence) that allows players using point buy to really boost one useful stat and not suffer much in the way of mechanical penalties in game. By creating subclasses like the Gladiator that require a high stat in something a fighter wouldn't normally prioritise, in this case charisma, you avoid that.
Scion of the Three is a new Rogue subclass that was in a recent UA and is coming out in the upcoming Forgotten Realms books
SAD builds (stands for Single Attribute Dependent) are classes and subclasses that can get away with focusing entirely on a single stat and boosting that really high at the expenxse of others. For instance a Wizard with a 20 in Intelligence can pretty much ignore almost every other stat because they can either use spells to cover the deficiency or just steer clear of situations that would require anything else. This often pigeonholes classes into only being good at one thing
Dark Sun is a post apocalyptic setting for D&D that goes back to 2e and that many people thought would never be updated to the modern game. A lot of the subclasses in the new UA have a very Dark Sun feeling theme to them making a lot of people think that's what they've been designed for
Hope that helps
ok, as someone who was around for the original Dark-Sun, there are key words in the PDF that are strong indicators to those that know, but wouldn't mean a thing to those that don't so i understand your confusion. I will do my best to break it down.
Defilement and Preservation themes, and the Magical post apocalypse.
DEFILED SORCERY (SORCERER)
Siphon Life into Catastrophic Spells: Defilement magic is a big part of the Darksun lore, and is why a once verdant land is now a scorched desert. People who used this kinda of magic were often celled "Defilers"
CIRCLE OF PRESERVATION (DRUID)
Safeguard Nature and Heal the World: There was an opposing philosophy to the Defilers call the Preserves, who would use magic to safe guard life and try to provide little pockets of life that were left in the desert. Sometimes they would attempt to heal areas, return habitibility to them.
APOCALYPTIC SUBCLASSES: Since Darksun is a Post-Apocolytic setting, using this term along the others in the document are almost a direct nudge and wink.
Sorcerer Kings: Sorcerer kings rules most of the major settlements and were often responsible for the collapse of the eco-system and they benefitted by providing through their magic, a safer place for people to live, but that also meant that they had desperate people willing to obey, and because of that, plenty of test subjects.
SORCERER-KING PATRON
Herald Tyrannical Might of Monstrous Rulers: This is a pretty clear reference to the lore tidbit i just laid out. The Sorcerer kings of the cities were utterly vile and they would Aptly be described as Monstrous Rulers.
the things not included, but have been brought up in other UA's are the Psion. Psionics played a huge part of the darksun campaign, letting people use magic like abilities that had their own system, and it did not harm the land. They were outside the Defiler/preserver dichotomy.
We could be wrong about all this, but there are a lot of keywords and concepts that lead us to believe Darksun is being teased.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I completely agree with you. A friend of mine in high school was very much into dark sun back in the 2e days. The problematic cultural aspects didn't phase me at all. it's a game in a fantasy world. When he told me I couldn't have a steel sword I was like, uh...no. I'm not doing that. It was a really easy call in my 16yo head. If no sword, I am not on board.
I expect a 5e version of Dark Sun to look a lot more like ERB's Barsoom novels rather than legit 2e dark sun. I'm sure they'll keep the big ones such as evil sorcerer kings running major cities, but a lot of stuff that made the setting unique I fully expect hasbro to reject. Honestly, the conclusion I've come to is that I wish they'd leave established lore alone. I used to really love Forgotten Realms back in the 2e days. Now, with retcon on top of retcon...I'm kind kind of tired of it. I wish they'd have stuck with the PoL setting from 4e where they can set whatever lore they want without ruining beloved canon from established realms. I'd much rather not know what's going on in Faerun, rather than have to read about Mystra getting shanked yet again to "change it up".
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I had the same discussion with my DM last night. He said there's too much magic to be dark sun. I said they're talking about preserving, defiling and have sorcerer-kings as patrons. It's 100% dark sun terminology. When they call the spell list "defiler spells", it's hard to argue for anything other than some sort of dark sun content.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
And then add in the psionic playtest they just ran, as psionics were a big part of Dark Sun as well.
The resource tracking is what I'm pretty interested to see. In the 2e Dark Sun, those non-metal swords and armor would break. So you kind of had to carry spares. And of course rations and water were such a big deal and you also had to carry that. But in the current edition, many people (myself included, I'm not criticizing) don't track things like rations or arrows or much of anything. But in Dark Sun, the resource scarcity was such a major factor. And then, if you're going to track those resources, you also need to track encumbrance (which is also mostly ignored) for it to be meaningful.
I'm really curious to see how they thread that needle between 5e's hand waving that kind of stuff and it being so integral to the Dark Sun setting.
In the end i belive we will have something like 4e Dark Sun, most of the rules exception and problematic themes were "answer" there
If I have to hazard a guess they will hand-waive and put that in the hands of the DM. Most people will look at the books as sources of new subclasses and maybe spells and feats and ignore the setting itself. That's just a guess though, and it's a guess that will make most dark sun FANS, very disappointed.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
A quick look at the 4 subclasses and a fluff reskinning could easily transform the Gladiator into a Swashbuckler (remember previous editions had this skin for fighters in addition to rogues) and the Defiler into a necromancer that isn't pet dependent. Warlocks are easy to reskin anyways, any tyrant with a lot of mystical mojo can be the patron. Gilgeam in the Realms, any number of devils in Pathfinder's nation of Cheliax (I am sure there is at least one group running that world under 5E), and ancient dragons that want to rule in nearly any setting. Even the preserver druid leans into being more of a cleric than other druids. I don't think this is a bad thing, as otherwise subclasses from a given game world might be locked into that world only.
Those concepts are hardly unique to Dark Sun though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No, but all 3 terms showing up in a D&D context points very strongly to the setting that used them as major elements.
Also the fact that gladiator was a class option in previous Dark Sun books and the UA is explicitly called Apocalyptic subclasses. It 100% points towards Dark Sun
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