I am going to propose a starting stat set to the group I play with. We have some issues with questions about validity of stats rolled and a massive amount of disparity in stats rolled. So here is what I am going to propose as they have complained that the standard array and the stat buy are to low of stats.
Do you want characters starting with a 20 and 16 in their main stats? This is BEYOND broken. Rolled stats are barely better than standard array. You could have everyone roll a set, and then vote on which one EVERYONE uses, or something similar to maintain balance.
Low stats are an important part of D&D design - they allow players to shine when their stat is relevant, and step back and let someone else shine when it is a mediocre stat. Whether that is accomplished through luck (rolled stats), point buy, or standard array, it is a good thing for the party dynamic and the game as a whole.
Your high overall stat spread - which would require extremely good rolls - fails to deliver on that component of game balance, and thus really should not be used. If you have concern about cheating, make everyone roll stats with the DM as a witness, others wise, sounds like your group might want to use point buy so they can maximize multiple stats and focus on character power in a way standard array does not allow.
A few of my groups use what has been called an Extended Array, which has been propose by some content creators as well. This is 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8. You get the initial boost in your main couple of stats, but you're still not amazing at everything. This alone provides some powerful characters, and I wouldn't want to go any higher than that.
I will echo the others. If you want everyone to be powerful with no real weaknesses, then I guess you can do this, but having a couple "low stats" is part of the game.
I proposed the standard array and people damn near ripped my head off saying they should start with an 18 because “they always roll at least one” and in thus lies the problem. We have some issues with people “rolling” insane stats and a couple of us rolling nearly comically bad. I agree role playing a low stat or two is fun but maybe I am in the wrong group. I am not the DM, he is at his end too so he asked me what I thought, this was just a first idea. I think he had lower numbers in mind too. I guess I am looking more for ideas not why this is a bad idea.
If that's their excuse, then you can do what was suggested above: have them all roll stats (4d6k3) and then they pick which one they will all use. I imagine their memory of rolls is a little skewed (especially if they were allowed to roll multiple lines) and they may decide that point-buy or standard array are actually preferred...
It should be assumed that all rolls are where everyone can see. If this is online, you can use one of the dice rollers that is built into many platforms that everyone can see.
I think someone else already proposed, but everyone rolls one stat line. Then you all vote on which one to use and everyone uses the same one. You get the rolls with less variation from character to character.
I’ve also heard of, but never tried rolling 2d6+6. It raises the average a bit, but not to crazy levels.
Otherwise, it’s a group conversation about how (as others said) stats like the the standard array are where they are for a lot of reasons, and the game math is balanced around those numbers. I get that some people really like the power fantasy and want bigger numbers. And they’re not wrong to like what they like. So you may also be right about finding a different group.
I proposed the standard array and people damn near ripped my head off saying they should start with an 18 because “they always roll at least one” and in thus lies the problem. We have some issues with people “rolling” insane stats and a couple of us rolling nearly comically bad. I agree role playing a low stat or two is fun but maybe I am in the wrong group. I am not the DM, he is at his end too so he asked me what I thought, this was just a first idea. I think he had lower numbers in mind too. I guess I am looking more for ideas not why this is a bad idea.
Here's the non-"head ripping off" version:
An 18 with a standard +2 or +1 becomes a 20 or 19 with the relevant traits.
That leads to DMs having to do more work to adjust for strnger players at lower tiers of play.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I like seeing my character grow stronger over the course of a game. If you start with your primary ability score already maxed out, then you're taking away some of that.
I like seeing my character grow stronger over the course of a game. If you start with your primary ability score already maxed out, then you're taking away some of that.
Agreed: and starting with a 20, then you lose the benefit of the stat boosts gained when you take feats.
One potential benefit of starting with a 17 or 18, though. is that, if your table doesn’t allow custom backgrounds, you’re free to choose backgrounds that suit the character but don’t give you an ASI for your primary stat. For example, I’ve recently built an Eberron Artificer Alchemist with the House Jorasco background. That suited the character well but doesn’t provide an Intelligence ASI. Having rolled a natural 17, the lack of an ASI didn’t matter.
For my money I wouldn’t allow that as a standard array at my table. I like my players to feel powerful but as others have pointed out if you’ve got an 18 in a standard array almost everyone will be starting with a 20 and that’ll both massively throw out the encounter balance for the first three levels and leave the level 4 ASI feeling less important because you’ve all basically started with level 4 stats.
If everyone is so adamant they want the higher stats how about using the actual standard array and giving an extra origin feat? Gives a bit more power, doesn’t upset the scaling quite so much, and allows for a bit of customisation
The standard array/point buy (basically the same thing) are just fine. They produce competent characters with room to grow. Level 1 characters are already perfectly functional with standard array -- yours is way too good, leaving characters with no weak, or even normal, stats.
As for the people who "always roll an 18", I'd offer them the option of "roll 4d6 keep 3 at the table, in front of everyone, and play it as it lies, with no second chances" I suspect some of them would be less eager.
(OK, I wouldn't. I'm entirely capable of telling my players "no", and, while I might be willing to discuss some kind of randomness, I don't like the kind of variance that everybody rolling stats produces.)
Are you the DM here? If your players are trying to fight you on basic character generation constraints, this bodes poorly for the entire relationship.
That array is higher than what i used when i was running a party of all Demi-gods. If they have fun with that, then it is fine, each table is different. Just not what i would go with.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
That is the biggest problem one of the group is online as he lives in a different state. And not thus far been required to roll in the open or at least in front of the DM.
I am not the DM, just the one he talks to about the issues others will not. He and I both see things as flawed right now. He was not our DM previously but has a ton of experience, the previous DM allowed mostly one person to get away with far to much for many years. I have been in the group off and on though multiple years on again at this point. We actually had a player, who was previous DM sister quit do to other player, and another quietly walk away under the excuse of work schedule.
That is the biggest problem one of the group is online as he lives in a different state. And not thus far been required to roll in the open or at least in front of the DM.
If you’re all using D&D Beyond you can get him to roll digital dice in the character sheet instead of physical dice. Harder to cheat and the DM can check the sheet later if they think something is a bit fishy
I agree with what everyone else is saying, allowing characters to start at level one with an 18 or 20 is a mistake. I also have a few people in my group that are in the camp of "if we can't have a 20 to start, what's the point." Level one is supposed to be the start of someone's adventuring career, not the end of it, and there needs to be room for character development.
I was the first DM in our extended group to switch to 5e, and in that campaign I allowed the group to use the same stat rolling system we had used for the previous 20 yrs in v3.5 - and it led to headaches trying to balance encounters to characters that were too strong. Since then I fell in love with stat buy. In the years since, i've convinced about half the group that stat buy/standard array is the way to go (mostly those who DM for the group), while the other half of the group (those who only play) are in the 'stage a mutiny during every character generation' camp.
So, I feel your pain. Nevertheless, allowing everyone to simply roll and take what they get will inevitably lead to at least one character that is over-powered, and one that will be at a serious disadvantage. Stat buy or Standard Array is the way to go in the current build of the game.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
With point buy, you could get three scores at 15, but the other three would all be 8's.
There is a +2,+1 that gets added so you get
17,16,15,8,8,8
Pcs arent supposed to be good at everythibg. Its one of the things that explains why they are part of a party. The cleric is best at healing. The bard is best at lying. The fighter is best at killing. The wizard is best at aoe.
If you want 4 lone-wolf pc's who barely tolerate each other, then give everyone 20's for all their abilities. If you want a party that sees the value of wotking together, then everyone has to be bad at some things that others are good at
As for the "i get at least one 18 when i roll for stats" that happpens about 60% of the time. (Roll a 16 and a +2 modifier) And if the dm isnt watching, they roll until they get it or something higher.
The odds of rolling anything better than a single 16 starts to drop off very quickly, so anyone bellyaching that they always get way better stats than point buy are just telling you that they cheat.
What i dm is point buy, and after everyone has created their charavter i give them an extra +1 to their highest stat. If they point buy a 15 then throw in the +2 for background, that gives them one 17 score.
The dm-fiat +1 bonus puts it at 18.
And then i have them give me a copy of their starting scores so things dont "accidentally" change.
That would mean they point buy
15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8
And background +2 +1 gets
17, 16, 13. 12, 8, 8
And the dm fiat +1 yields
18, 16, 13, 12, 8, 8
And those are some really good scores at level 1
But also encourages the party to work together.
The 18dex pc might have an 8 int, so they defer to the wizard for int checks.
And it lets different players get the spotlight in different encounters.
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I am going to propose a starting stat set to the group I play with. We have some issues with questions about validity of stats rolled and a massive amount of disparity in stats rolled. So here is what I am going to propose as they have complained that the standard array and the stat buy are to low of stats.
18
15
15
14
14
12
Do you want characters starting with a 20 and 16 in their main stats? This is BEYOND broken. Rolled stats are barely better than standard array. You could have everyone roll a set, and then vote on which one EVERYONE uses, or something similar to maintain balance.
Low stats are an important part of D&D design - they allow players to shine when their stat is relevant, and step back and let someone else shine when it is a mediocre stat. Whether that is accomplished through luck (rolled stats), point buy, or standard array, it is a good thing for the party dynamic and the game as a whole.
Your high overall stat spread - which would require extremely good rolls - fails to deliver on that component of game balance, and thus really should not be used. If you have concern about cheating, make everyone roll stats with the DM as a witness, others wise, sounds like your group might want to use point buy so they can maximize multiple stats and focus on character power in a way standard array does not allow.
A few of my groups use what has been called an Extended Array, which has been propose by some content creators as well. This is 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8. You get the initial boost in your main couple of stats, but you're still not amazing at everything. This alone provides some powerful characters, and I wouldn't want to go any higher than that.
I will echo the others. If you want everyone to be powerful with no real weaknesses, then I guess you can do this, but having a couple "low stats" is part of the game.
I proposed the standard array and people damn near ripped my head off saying they should start with an 18 because “they always roll at least one” and in thus lies the problem. We have some issues with people “rolling” insane stats and a couple of us rolling nearly comically bad. I agree role playing a low stat or two is fun but maybe I am in the wrong group. I am not the DM, he is at his end too so he asked me what I thought, this was just a first idea. I think he had lower numbers in mind too. I guess I am looking more for ideas not why this is a bad idea.
If that's their excuse, then you can do what was suggested above: have them all roll stats (4d6k3) and then they pick which one they will all use. I imagine their memory of rolls is a little skewed (especially if they were allowed to roll multiple lines) and they may decide that point-buy or standard array are actually preferred...
It should be assumed that all rolls are where everyone can see. If this is online, you can use one of the dice rollers that is built into many platforms that everyone can see.
I think someone else already proposed, but everyone rolls one stat line. Then you all vote on which one to use and everyone uses the same one. You get the rolls with less variation from character to character.
I’ve also heard of, but never tried rolling 2d6+6. It raises the average a bit, but not to crazy levels.
Otherwise, it’s a group conversation about how (as others said) stats like the the standard array are where they are for a lot of reasons, and the game math is balanced around those numbers. I get that some people really like the power fantasy and want bigger numbers. And they’re not wrong to like what they like. So you may also be right about finding a different group.
Here's the non-"head ripping off" version:
An 18 with a standard +2 or +1 becomes a 20 or 19 with the relevant traits.
That leads to DMs having to do more work to adjust for strnger players at lower tiers of play.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I like seeing my character grow stronger over the course of a game. If you start with your primary ability score already maxed out, then you're taking away some of that.
Agreed: and starting with a 20, then you lose the benefit of the stat boosts gained when you take feats.
One potential benefit of starting with a 17 or 18, though. is that, if your table doesn’t allow custom backgrounds, you’re free to choose backgrounds that suit the character but don’t give you an ASI for your primary stat. For example, I’ve recently built an Eberron Artificer Alchemist with the House Jorasco background. That suited the character well but doesn’t provide an Intelligence ASI. Having rolled a natural 17, the lack of an ASI didn’t matter.
For my money I wouldn’t allow that as a standard array at my table. I like my players to feel powerful but as others have pointed out if you’ve got an 18 in a standard array almost everyone will be starting with a 20 and that’ll both massively throw out the encounter balance for the first three levels and leave the level 4 ASI feeling less important because you’ve all basically started with level 4 stats.
If everyone is so adamant they want the higher stats how about using the actual standard array and giving an extra origin feat? Gives a bit more power, doesn’t upset the scaling quite so much, and allows for a bit of customisation
The standard array/point buy (basically the same thing) are just fine. They produce competent characters with room to grow. Level 1 characters are already perfectly functional with standard array -- yours is way too good, leaving characters with no weak, or even normal, stats.
As for the people who "always roll an 18", I'd offer them the option of "roll 4d6 keep 3 at the table, in front of everyone, and play it as it lies, with no second chances" I suspect some of them would be less eager.
(OK, I wouldn't. I'm entirely capable of telling my players "no", and, while I might be willing to discuss some kind of randomness, I don't like the kind of variance that everybody rolling stats produces.)
Are you the DM here? If your players are trying to fight you on basic character generation constraints, this bodes poorly for the entire relationship.
That array is higher than what i used when i was running a party of all Demi-gods.
If they have fun with that, then it is fine, each table is different. Just not what i would go with.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
That is the biggest problem one of the group is online as he lives in a different state. And not thus far been required to roll in the open or at least in front of the DM.
I am not the DM, just the one he talks to about the issues others will not. He and I both see things as flawed right now. He was not our DM previously but has a ton of experience, the previous DM allowed mostly one person to get away with far to much for many years. I have been in the group off and on though multiple years on again at this point. We actually had a player, who was previous DM sister quit do to other player, and another quietly walk away under the excuse of work schedule.
If you’re all using D&D Beyond you can get him to roll digital dice in the character sheet instead of physical dice. Harder to cheat and the DM can check the sheet later if they think something is a bit fishy
I agree with what everyone else is saying, allowing characters to start at level one with an 18 or 20 is a mistake. I also have a few people in my group that are in the camp of "if we can't have a 20 to start, what's the point." Level one is supposed to be the start of someone's adventuring career, not the end of it, and there needs to be room for character development.
I was the first DM in our extended group to switch to 5e, and in that campaign I allowed the group to use the same stat rolling system we had used for the previous 20 yrs in v3.5 - and it led to headaches trying to balance encounters to characters that were too strong. Since then I fell in love with stat buy. In the years since, i've convinced about half the group that stat buy/standard array is the way to go (mostly those who DM for the group), while the other half of the group (those who only play) are in the 'stage a mutiny during every character generation' camp.
So, I feel your pain. Nevertheless, allowing everyone to simply roll and take what they get will inevitably lead to at least one character that is over-powered, and one that will be at a serious disadvantage. Stat buy or Standard Array is the way to go in the current build of the game.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
18, 15, 15, 14, 14, 12
Wow, that is a POWERFUL set of ability scores.
With point buy, you could get three scores at 15, but the other three would all be 8's.
There is a +2,+1 that gets added so you get
17,16,15,8,8,8
Pcs arent supposed to be good at everythibg. Its one of the things that explains why they are part of a party. The cleric is best at healing. The bard is best at lying. The fighter is best at killing. The wizard is best at aoe.
If you want 4 lone-wolf pc's who barely tolerate each other, then give everyone 20's for all their abilities. If you want a party that sees the value of wotking together, then everyone has to be bad at some things that others are good at
As for the "i get at least one 18 when i roll for stats" that happpens about 60% of the time. (Roll a 16 and a +2 modifier) And if the dm isnt watching, they roll until they get it or something higher.
The odds of rolling anything better than a single 16 starts to drop off very quickly, so anyone bellyaching that they always get way better stats than point buy are just telling you that they cheat.
What i dm is point buy, and after everyone has created their charavter i give them an extra +1 to their highest stat. If they point buy a 15 then throw in the +2 for background, that gives them one 17 score.
The dm-fiat +1 bonus puts it at 18.
And then i have them give me a copy of their starting scores so things dont "accidentally" change.
That would mean they point buy
15, 15, 13, 12, 8, 8
And background +2 +1 gets
17, 16, 13. 12, 8, 8
And the dm fiat +1 yields
18, 16, 13, 12, 8, 8
And those are some really good scores at level 1
But also encourages the party to work together.
The 18dex pc might have an 8 int, so they defer to the wizard for int checks.
And it lets different players get the spotlight in different encounters.