A curious scenario happened in my weekly game the other night.
Our party discovered two freshly made vampires, presumably turned a week ago. When escape for them was impossible they begged mercy. After an interrogation via Zone of Truth, it seems as though the DM hasn't necessarily changed their alignment to Evil exactly, but more like they became overnight sociopaths. My character views the vampires as victims as they have not yet committed any sins beyond being created, and wants to attempt resurrection when possible.
This is a question about mechanics rather than character choices or roleplay development. Here are the quick facts:
The vampires are undead and therefore their bodies are arguably corpses.
Raise Dead can bring a target back to life within 10 days.
The vampires have been dead for presumably less than 10 days.
In the language of the spell's description, Gentle Repose "effectively extends the time limit on raising the target from the dead, since days spent under the influence of this spell don’t count against the time limit of spells such as raise dead."
Raise Dead does not bring undead back to life.
Targets of a Raise Dead spell must have an intact corpse that is missing no vital organs or parts required for living.
Here's the plan:
Cast Gentle Repose on each vampire every 10 days until a Raise Dead or greater equivalent can be cast.
Kill the vampires without mangling the bodies prior to Raise Dead being cast, rendering them not longer undead but still corpses affected by Gentle Repose
Have Raise Dead or equivalent on the dead vampires.
Mechanically speaking, how do you think this might or mightn't work?
In game terms "corpse" is not synonymous with "undead". If a corpse is raised as a zombie, then killed, or can't be raised with animate dead or similar spells because it's not a "corpse". (It's a dead/destroyed zombie at that point.)
So to that end, gentle repose wouldn't work because it targets a "corpse" and not "undead/vampire". Raise dead says it doesn't work on undead. (And a dead/destroyed vampire is still classified as undead.) Even resurrection won't work for the same reason.
It's pretty much been the same across all editions of D&D. Otherwise, a 4th or 5th level spell like "raise dead" has a chance to effectively one-shot a vampire (CR13) or a lich (CR21). Once they're undead, they stay undead in the D&D mechanics.
Even if the spell specifically didn't specifically say it cannot raise undead back to life, I would agree with you that it couldn't for the same balance reason of one-shotting undead creatures.
On the subject of corpse and undead not being synonymous, I also agree. I disagree however with the notion that they are mutually exclusive. That's a real thin line, I realize.
My question then is a character, player or otherwise, unable to be revived if turned into some form of undead short of a True Resurrection?
I can't find it exactly, but there was a Jeremy Crawford answer about one of these spells, and said that True Resurrection was the only one that could. I think it started with a question about revivify, and he said revivify would bring a zombie back as a zombie, because creature types can't be changed. (Unless specifically said) True resurrection provides a new body, so it isn't changing creature types, it's putting the "soul" of the character into a new body if needed.
I don't think it is unreasonable for a killed undead to be raised as a non-undead assuming all other conditions are met (based on original time of death).
Just went back and re-read the original question: Regardless of general undead vs corpse, none of it will work on vampires. They either turn to mist at 0 hp and then regenerate, or are destroyed. (No body to try and cast a spell on.)
Just went back and re-read the original question: Regardless of general undead vs corpse, none of it will work on vampires. They either turn to mist at 0 hp and then regenerate, or are destroyed. (No body to try and cast a spell on.)
Full vampires would turn to mist in the process of being destroyed/killed, certainly, but it's vampire spawn we're dealing with. The text for vampire spawn has nothing about turning into mist, nor anything about what happens to the body upon full death. Taken by itself, the text for vampire spawn would then assume that it would leave behind a corpse like anything else. Taking the full vampire text into consideration, it's more unclear.
Which at this point of the discussion/research I would say it's the DM's call?
DM could rule in any way they want for sure. On a side note...if he/she googles it looking for an answer there are a ton of discussions confirming the "undead does not equal corpse" conclusion. If your DM sticks with that, here is an alternative for saving them. (Now that I know they are spawns.) Track down and kill the vampire that made them. It won't change them back to living, but they will have free will and not be under the vampire's control anymore. If they want to remain good they can find a way to exist in a "non-evil" way.
This sounds like a great time for the Rule of Cool. The party wanting to 'save the souls' of these beings, and the vamp spawn themselves being willing, is cool. My call would be to allow this to happen as planned, but...the tension is going to be that they will keep getting more and more sociopathic as time goes by. If you don't find the necessary spell casters in enough time, the vamp spawn are going to stop being willing and embrace their new existence. They keep slowly losing more and more control every day. Now you've got a great adventure hook :)
I think this is a case of by RAW doesnt work, once the corpse has been raised it is undead. If the DM is on board they can A: allow it, B: If they dont want to break RAW, they could add a specialized ritual to the world to cleanse the undead of the necromatic taint, rendering a willing undead back to an inanimate corpse that would be a legal target of raise dead. If i went with route B I would probably have it use some rare reagent(that the local priest happens to have for these two) so that if the players run into another situation (such as one of them being turned into a vampire) there would be a quest option to turn them back and they can't just go boom everything is back to normal.
I agree that it should be a quest of some kind, not just a trip to the next town, being that it's a never before heard of attempt.
Another possibility is that the the party learns that the kill-then-raise plan doesn't actually bring them back to normal life, but will allow them to die like normal people and free from the vampirism and whatever fate that might imply. In other words, they get to go on to whatever good afterlife they would have gotten had they not been vamped. I mean, being a vampire has to do some serious damage, not just physical. A cool resolution could also be just 'laying them to rest' without their souls being tainted.
Undead are not walking corpses. Once a vampire dies they become a corpse, and the "timer" starts for how long they've been dead. So really all you need to do is kill the vampires and then cast raise dead on them.
However, the soul has to be willing to return and vampire's now corrupt soul may not be willing to return knowing full well they will return to the living.
A curious scenario happened in my weekly game the other night.
Our party discovered two freshly made vampires, presumably turned a week ago. When escape for them was impossible they begged mercy. After an interrogation via Zone of Truth, it seems as though the DM hasn't necessarily changed their alignment to Evil exactly, but more like they became overnight sociopaths. My character views the vampires as victims as they have not yet committed any sins beyond being created, and wants to attempt resurrection when possible.
This is a question about mechanics rather than character choices or roleplay development. Here are the quick facts:
Here's the plan:
Mechanically speaking, how do you think this might or mightn't work?
In game terms "corpse" is not synonymous with "undead". If a corpse is raised as a zombie, then killed, or can't be raised with animate dead or similar spells because it's not a "corpse". (It's a dead/destroyed zombie at that point.)
So to that end, gentle repose wouldn't work because it targets a "corpse" and not "undead/vampire". Raise dead says it doesn't work on undead. (And a dead/destroyed vampire is still classified as undead.) Even resurrection won't work for the same reason.
It's pretty much been the same across all editions of D&D. Otherwise, a 4th or 5th level spell like "raise dead" has a chance to effectively one-shot a vampire (CR13) or a lich (CR21). Once they're undead, they stay undead in the D&D mechanics.
Even if the spell specifically didn't specifically say it cannot raise undead back to life, I would agree with you that it couldn't for the same balance reason of one-shotting undead creatures.
On the subject of corpse and undead not being synonymous, I also agree. I disagree however with the notion that they are mutually exclusive. That's a real thin line, I realize.
My question then is a character, player or otherwise, unable to be revived if turned into some form of undead short of a True Resurrection?
I can't find it exactly, but there was a Jeremy Crawford answer about one of these spells, and said that True Resurrection was the only one that could. I think it started with a question about revivify, and he said revivify would bring a zombie back as a zombie, because creature types can't be changed. (Unless specifically said) True resurrection provides a new body, so it isn't changing creature types, it's putting the "soul" of the character into a new body if needed.
I side with corpse and undead being completely different things else why have two specific words?
Undead is magically reanimated.
Read the first chapters. Feel free to critique. Will link the next chapters at the end of the first. Two stories running so far.
Simeon Tor:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/34598-simeon-tor-chapter-1-the-heat-of-battle
The Heart of the Drow:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/36014-heart-of-the-drow-chapter-1
I don't think it is unreasonable for a killed undead to be raised as a non-undead assuming all other conditions are met (based on original time of death).
Just went back and re-read the original question: Regardless of general undead vs corpse, none of it will work on vampires. They either turn to mist at 0 hp and then regenerate, or are destroyed. (No body to try and cast a spell on.)
Full vampires would turn to mist in the process of being destroyed/killed, certainly, but it's vampire spawn we're dealing with. The text for vampire spawn has nothing about turning into mist, nor anything about what happens to the body upon full death. Taken by itself, the text for vampire spawn would then assume that it would leave behind a corpse like anything else. Taking the full vampire text into consideration, it's more unclear.
Which at this point of the discussion/research I would say it's the DM's call?
DM could rule in any way they want for sure. On a side note...if he/she googles it looking for an answer there are a ton of discussions confirming the "undead does not equal corpse" conclusion. If your DM sticks with that, here is an alternative for saving them. (Now that I know they are spawns.) Track down and kill the vampire that made them. It won't change them back to living, but they will have free will and not be under the vampire's control anymore. If they want to remain good they can find a way to exist in a "non-evil" way.
This sounds like a great time for the Rule of Cool. The party wanting to 'save the souls' of these beings, and the vamp spawn themselves being willing, is cool. My call would be to allow this to happen as planned, but...the tension is going to be that they will keep getting more and more sociopathic as time goes by. If you don't find the necessary spell casters in enough time, the vamp spawn are going to stop being willing and embrace their new existence. They keep slowly losing more and more control every day. Now you've got a great adventure hook :)
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
I think this is a case of by RAW doesnt work, once the corpse has been raised it is undead. If the DM is on board they can A: allow it, B: If they dont want to break RAW, they could add a specialized ritual to the world to cleanse the undead of the necromatic taint, rendering a willing undead back to an inanimate corpse that would be a legal target of raise dead. If i went with route B I would probably have it use some rare reagent(that the local priest happens to have for these two) so that if the players run into another situation (such as one of them being turned into a vampire) there would be a quest option to turn them back and they can't just go boom everything is back to normal.
I agree that it should be a quest of some kind, not just a trip to the next town, being that it's a never before heard of attempt.
Another possibility is that the the party learns that the kill-then-raise plan doesn't actually bring them back to normal life, but will allow them to die like normal people and free from the vampirism and whatever fate that might imply. In other words, they get to go on to whatever good afterlife they would have gotten had they not been vamped. I mean, being a vampire has to do some serious damage, not just physical. A cool resolution could also be just 'laying them to rest' without their souls being tainted.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
Raise Dead: "The spell can't return an undead creature to life." (PHB, p. 270)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Undead are not walking corpses. Once a vampire dies they become a corpse, and the "timer" starts for how long they've been dead. So really all you need to do is kill the vampires and then cast raise dead on them.
However, the soul has to be willing to return and vampire's now corrupt soul may not be willing to return knowing full well they will return to the living.