I was just told that "sending data from DDB to Roll20 is a violation of the terms of service you agreed to when you made your account. Technically DDB can cancel your account and rescind all of the licenses you have purchased without refund for your breaking those rules."
you may not modify, publish, transmit, reproduce, scrape, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, adapt, aggregate, sell, transfer or in any way exploit any of the content, in whole or in part,
But is that a fact? Does DnD Beyond has an official statement on how they view the plug in (As it's clearly against the T&C)? It's very helpful and I have many players that use it, but I don't think they are expecting to lose their accounts if they get "caught" using it, you know?
You can review the Terms of Use yourself and see what Fandom's stance on third party applications is, as well as the consequences of violating those terms of use. That would be D&D Beyonds official statement because DDB uses those terms of use (as indicated by the fact they are linked at the bottom of the page).
You can review the Terms of Use yourself and see what Fandom's stance on third party applications is, as well as the consequences of violating those terms of use. That would be D&D Beyonds official statement because DDB uses those terms of use (as indicated by the fact they are linked at the bottom of the page).
First let me say, I have a master subscription here and bought already 6 books in my first 3 months of usage. I think I proofed my intent to be a customer here.
Second, one would assume that, since there is a 30 page long thread in the official forum about a plugin, what it does, how to install it, how to use it - that you are allowed to use this plugin. I'm highly confused that I get "advised" here on the forum by users ("Iamsposta") hat I may lose my subscription and all the books I bought here, when I mention a plugin that is announced and discussed on the very same forum since May 2019(!!).
I get even more confused when I ask if its legal and you as a moderator tell me its maybe not, but you are obviously using this plugin yourself since the second post of this thread (and many more to come) is from you about the experience of using it.
I'm REALLY confused now what's going on here on how the legal state of this plugin is. Sorry for spamming this thread but I don't take it lightly to get "threatened" to lose my subscription and content because I use a tool clearly used and endorsed by moderators on this forum.
You can review the Terms of Use yourself and see what Fandom's stance on third party applications is, as well as the consequences of violating those terms of use. That would be D&D Beyonds official statement because DDB uses those terms of use (as indicated by the fact they are linked at the bottom of the page).
I'll try and address your points
First let me say, I have a master subscription here and bought already 6 books in my first 3 months of usage. I think I proofed my intent to be a customer here.
There's no relationship between 'proof' of being a customer and the applicability of the terms of use. Everyone who uses the site in any way must abide by the terms.
Second, one would assume that, since there is a 30 page long thread in the official forum about a plugin, what it does, how to install it, how to use it - that you are allowed to use this plugin. I'm highly confused that I get "advised" here on the forum by users ("Iamsposta") hat I may lose my subscription and all the books I bought here, when I mention a plugin that is announced and discussed on the very same forum since May 2019(!!).
The existence of this thread discussing the use of the extension does not in any way represent an official condemnation or approval of the extension. It simply means that discussing the extension does not represent a violation of the site rules and guidelines. What the other user stated is accurate; that violation of the terms of use may result in you losing access to your account and/or content.
I get even more confused when I ask if its legal and you as a moderator tell me its maybe not, but you are obviously using this plugin yourself since the second post of this thread (and many more to come) is from you about the experience of using it.
It is not a matter of legalities, but terms of use; what you're allowed to do with the site and the service it provides. I cannot tell you if using the extension will 100% result in a loss of your account, I can merely point you to the information that covers such matters (the terms of use). I did use the extension in the past, longbefore I became a moderator and ceased using it before I became a mod after it proved to be too disruptive to my use of the site. This is the advice we give people; use at your own risk.
I'm REALLY confused now what's going on here on how the legal state of this plugin is. Sorry for spamming this thread but I don't take it lightly to get "threatened" to lose my subscription and content because I use a tool clearly used and endorsed by moderators on this forum.
You weren't being threatened, but informed. If you're going to use an extension that interacts with D&D Beyond, it's wise to be fully aware of what that might mean.
Short version: Roll20 is a direct competitor to DDB. DDB cannot and will not endorse a browser plug-in that advantages their direct competitor. Also Roll20 sucks total donkey rocks and is actively terrible at everything so I'm unsure why people even want to integrate the two, but that's neither here nor there.
They are not necessarily likely to zotz you over it unless you do something to make them zotz you. DDB doesn't want to ban/disenfranchise customers, but they will do whatever they feel they must to protect their business. If a plug-in designed to funnel people to their own direct competitor becomes a problem, they'll do something about it. If somebodsy makes a loud, highly visible public stink over the plug-in, they may feel a need to do something about it.
"Use at your own risk" is not a threat. It's a statement. To clarify, it states: "we may or may not have to do something about this in the future, and if we do you may get caught up in it. Nothing personal and no hostility intended; use it if you want, but be aware that it carries risk."
You can review the Terms of Use yourself and see what Fandom's stance on third party applications is, as well as the consequences of violating those terms of use. That would be D&D Beyonds official statement because DDB uses those terms of use (as indicated by the fact they are linked at the bottom of the page).
First let me say, I have a master subscription here and bought already 6 books in my first 3 months of usage. I think I proofed my intent to be a customer here.
Second, one would assume that, since there is a 30 page long thread in the official forum about a plugin, what it does, how to install it, how to use it - that you are allowed to use this plugin. I'm highly confused that I get "advised" here on the forum by users ("Iamsposta") hat I may lose my subscription and all the books I bought here, when I mention a plugin that is announced and discussed on the very same forum since May 2019(!!).
I get even more confused when I ask if its legal and you as a moderator tell me its maybe not, but you are obviously using this plugin yourself since the second post of this thread (and many more to come) is from you about the experience of using it.
I'm REALLY confused now what's going on here on how the legal state of this plugin is. Sorry for spamming this thread but I don't take it lightly to get "threatened" to lose my subscription and content because I use a tool clearly used and endorsed by moderators on this forum.
The way I see it, after Davyd answer and reading through the Terms of Use myself is: The plugin clearly breaks Terms of Use. BUT... is not only too popular, it, also, opens up a very profitable market for Fandom - Online Play - something that DnD Beyond never has developed into.
But why would they don't address this as an exception? (Something that was stated in the Terms of Use that might occur - "Except as expressly permitted by the Company[...]") Simple, if they do address it, they are essentially endorsing a third part vendor to spread their products into an indirect competitor (Everytime someone uses Beyond20, that same person is guaranteed to not buy the book on Roll20). They simply cannot do that. Is the same as someone buying the hardcopy, homebrewing and publishing on DnD Beyond, if think about it.
But that doesn't mean they will ban you for using it, because, once again, is a great untapped market that they are gaining ground without any personal effort. So, it's better to keep silent and don't engage in bans, while getting the profits of users using a third party to play for free on the tools developed by others.
Not only that, but, with no official statement, they have the right to start banning people when they do choose to delve into VTT. It is just a very comfortable position in terms of business.
So, if you wanna keep using Beyond20, you can, but you will always be on the wrong side of the Terms of Use - meaning you have no power over what happens anymore, because you have broken the agreement you made to the company the moment you subscribed.
Well, that's my 2 cents on the matter anyway... I don't use it and, despite this being a very helpful tool, the right thing to do is to buy books on Roll20 too, if you want to access the content there - or create them from scratch - which Roll20 is pretty ok with as well.
Short version: Roll20 is a direct competitor to DDB. DDB cannot and will not endorse a browser plug-in that advantages their direct competitor. Also Roll20 sucks total donkey rocks and is actively terrible at everything so I'm unsure why people even want to integrate the two, but that's neither here nor there.
Thank you ALL for your answers. Maybe you can still guess how I feel after being here only for 3 months then realize that the plugin discussed here is not legal.
That said, I dont even use roll20 and never said so. (Yes, I also think it's terrible and technical inferior , when I was shown it before I got my subscription here). In my original post I wrote "VTT (eg Roll20)" as an example. I would not have bought six books here otherwise. My group decided because of this thread to start in person meetings again, since the covid-situation seems to relax soon. I cant wait to get all my figures and houses and and out and play again like it's supposed to be: on a real table :)
I know now not to mention this plugin and just focus on the bugs I found in the character sheet of DND Beyond. Thank you all again.
Beyond20 is a third party application, which is not officially sanctioned (and likely never would be). I don't believe that The Terms of Service affects Beyond20 because it's a passive extension that parses the information available on the page, it doesn't scrape or use the internal APIs of DDB or publishes/distributes/etc.. any of the content. It is a tool used to play on D&D Beyond.
It is also not causing people to go to Roll20, "a competitor of D&D Beyond", but quite the contrary, it allows Roll20 users to use D&D Beyond. You can't use Beyond20 without being on DDB's website, so it brings in traffic and more users and people purchase books on D&D Beyond to have access to the data on DDB which they need to use if they are using Beyond20. It's a positive for all the platforms that Beyond20 supports, a win-win-win for everybody, including the players.
The Terms of Service are what they are, they are a legal document, and as Davyd said, the ToS says that they may take action for someone abusing the platform, which is not something that they would do unless the actions taken are harmful to the D&D Beyond platform. It is also not about legality, but rather about the terms that they decide for the use of their service, it could say "You have to name your firstborn after one of our founders or we may decide to terminate your account", it doesn't mean it's illegal not to do it and it doesn't mean that they would terminate your account if you don't do it. The ToS is a legal document meant to protect them, so it needs to remain as vague as possible and give them as much power as possible so in case there is a real reason for them to terminate your account and then you sue them, they can point to the terms of service to say that they were justified because you had agreed to the terms, and that protects them against a lawsuit. That's what that clause in the Terms of Service is for.
As for the Beyond20 question specifically, and whether it's risky to use it or if D&D Beyond are ok with people using it :
Beyond20 has around 500 thousand users, and it is a well loved extension by many, including the D&D Beyond team. I am in contact with the D&D Beyond team and have been for a long time now (and I even met some of them recently at PAX, which was great) and I sometimes receive advance notice on changes they are doing to the character sheet with VIP access so I can adapt/fix Beyond20 if needed so it doesn't break when an update goes live, for example. So it is way more than a "don't let anyone know you're using it".
I think that it is a safe bet that you will never see anyone getting banned for using Beyond20, when taking all of that into account. And all that being said, the decision is still yours, and you have to make your own decisions based on the facts that you see before you and your own adversity to risk. I can't give you a guarantee and the moderators can't give you a guarantee and nobody else can either, because if something changes 5 years from now and they decide to change their stance, nobody wants to be dragged in front of a judge and being pointed at and saying that they are liable for whatever damages because they said that it was safe in a forum post at some point in the past, etc... That's why everyone will say "they may ban" and why they say "at your own risks". I say that it's safe, I say that we are on very friendly terms with the D&D Beyond team, and I say that Beyond20 was recommended officially in public by the DDB co-founder Adam Bradford (with proof in the twitch links above), but the decision still remains yours whether you want to use it or not 🤷♂️
I hope this helps clarify it all and stops the fear and uncertainty surrounding that question.
Beyond20 is a third party application, which is not officially sanctioned (and likely never would be). I don't believe that The Terms of Service affects Beyond20 because it's a passive extension that parses the information available on the page, it doesn't scrape or use the internal APIs of DDB or publishes/distributes/etc.. any of the content. It is a tool used to play on D&D Beyond.
Going to snip most of KaKaRoToDM's response and focus on being "used to play on D&D Beyond." Prior to discovering Beyond20 as an add on - I didn't have the DM Tier Subscription. I did not have the five (or is it six now?) digital book on D&D Beyond. Why? Because I prefer the physical copies. But I was already using D&D Beyond for my games (great character generator, easy to use, infinitely better than Roll20 in my opinion). Then COVID hit. All my games went remote. I discovered Beyond20. I realized how easy it was to use. Checked with my players. They dug it. I ended up getting the DM Tier after that. Bought the Player's Handbook to share with my players. As it went on - and we realized what a literal game changer Beyond20 was - I was buying both the physical copies of my D&D books. But also, I was picking up digital books I could use for my campaign. A couple of my players bought extra classes and stuff. So Beyond20 was a literal game changer. That made D&D Beyond infinitely more useful than "just a place to store your characters to update, and print out." It became the virtual center for my game. Because of Beyond20. I spent money on D&D Beyond - and pay monthly - because of Beyond20.
If they ended up "banning" accounts on D&D Beyond for using Beyond20, I think it would have a massive backlash.
The Terms of Service are what they are, they are a legal document, and as Davyd said, the ToS says that they may take action for someone abusing the platform, ..., it could say "You have to name your firstborn after one of our founders or we may decide to terminate your account", it doesn't mean it's illegal not to do it and it doesn't mean that they would terminate your account if you don't do it. The ToS is a legal document meant to protect them, so it needs to remain as vague as possible and give them as much power as possible so in case there is a real reason for them to terminate your account and then you sue them, they can point to the terms of service to say that they were justified because you had agreed to the terms, and that protects them against a lawsuit. That's what that clause in the Terms of Service is for.
Only may... damn. I thought I finally had a way to get rid of that disappointment of a first born.
Beyond20 has around 500 thousand users, and it is a well loved extension by many, including the D&D Beyond team.
That's why DnD Beyond will most likely do nothing - if someone actually needed to do something is Roll20, if 10% of that user base, just 10%, bought just the PHB there instead of using Beyond20, we are talking about 1.5M U$.
Ofc, DnD Beyond is happy with that, but one can only wonder if that is very ethical way of doing business.
Imagine if there was a third party solution that could transfer the character options from Roll20 library to DnD Beyond Character Creator, would DnD Beyond be okay with that?
Beyond20 has around 500 thousand users, and it is a well loved extension by many, including the D&D Beyond team.
That's why DnD Beyond will most likely do nothing - if someone actually needed to do something is Roll20, if 10% of that user base, just 10%, bought just the PHB there instead of using Beyond20, we are talking about 1.5M U$.
Ofc, DnD Beyond is happy with that, but one can only wonder if that is very ethical way of doing business.
Imagine if there was a third party solution that could transfer the character options from Roll20 library to DnD Beyond Character Creator, would DnD Beyond be okay with that?
Don't think it's fair to accuse KaKaRoToDM of being unethical for using Roll20's API tools that Roll20 created and opened up for use by developers like KaKaRoToDM. Roll20 also makes a lot of their income via subscriptions and marketplace sales of maps and other assets. So perhaps they'd rather those players use Roll20 as their VTT and pay in other ways (like subscription revenue year after year rather than a one-time PHB purchase). Either way, if you want to second guess Roll20's business model, go right ahead, but calling another forum member unethical for using the tools Roll20 itself created certainly seems unwarranted.
Beyond20 has around 500 thousand users, and it is a well loved extension by many, including the D&D Beyond team.
That's why DnD Beyond will most likely do nothing - if someone actually needed to do something is Roll20, if 10% of that user base, just 10%, bought just the PHB there instead of using Beyond20, we are talking about 1.5M U$.
Ofc, DnD Beyond is happy with that, but one can only wonder if that is very ethical way of doing business.
Imagine if there was a third party solution that could transfer the character options from Roll20 library to DnD Beyond Character Creator, would DnD Beyond be okay with that?
Don't think it's fair to accuse KaKaRoToDM of being unethical for using Roll20's API tools that Roll20 created and opened up for use by developers like KaKaRoToDM. Roll20 also makes a lot of their income via subscriptions and marketplace sales of maps and other assets. So perhaps they'd rather those players use Roll20 as their VTT and pay in other ways (like subscription revenue year after year rather than a one-time PHB purchase). Either way, if you want to second guess Roll20's business model, go right ahead, but calling another forum member unethical for using the tools Roll20 itself created certainly seems unwarranted.
Sorry, maybe you misunderstood me. The unethical business approach is from DnD Beyond imo. Kakaroto is doing everything for free to make the game accessible for people. He is not profiting.
That's why my metaphor is about a third party using external content on DnD Beyond. Would they ban users using it?
If Roll20 is profiting or no, one can only wonder. I really don't know.
Although I have no direct contact with the Roll20 team itself, from what I heard, they do like Beyond20's existence, because it also helps them. Users who might be frustrated with their character sheet and might look elsewhere for a better solution will remain on their platform if Beyond20 makes playing there easier. Similarly, D&D Beyond users who might be looking for a VTT might use Roll20 because now they can use it with their already-purchased content. Also, if you play on Roll20, even if you don't buy the PHB, you might buy the full adventure module (like Curse of Strahd for example) because buying it on Roll20 will make it "VTT ready".
As for profiting, while Beyond20 is free and open source, I do have a Patreon and a Ko-fi account for donations, which is bringing me income through generous people who like Beyond20 and want to support its development, so "He is not profiting" would be an incorrect statement.
As for the ethical aspects of it, I think that someone having to buy the same content twice (physical books + on DDB, or DDB+Roll20 books, etc..) is where I see an issue, though I wouldn't really qualify it as being unethical either, since it's not done this way intentionally (you can't validate physical purchases, and the digital one or "adapted for VTT" is different content and requires additional work as well to port that data over).
Last point I'll make, Beyond20 doesn't actually use the API from Roll20, it does everything by simulating two things and two things only :
entering text in the chat box as if the player typed it manually
simulating the user clicking on the 'send' button for the chat.
You can verify this by making any Beyond20 roll, then pressing the up arrow in your chat box in Roll20 to see exactly what message Beyond20 sent on your behalf. It acts as nothing more than running a macro and you could likely even program your keyboard to do the exact same thing with a keyboard macro for example (but simulating pressing the 'Enter' key instead of pressing the 'Send' button).
I think there's beauty in that, as Beyond20 only passively parses the information provided by D&D Beyond in the page as it is displayed to the player, and only emulates the user sending a chat message, basically automating things the player would be doing manually and a bit more laboriously :)
Note that the HP syncing with tokens does require the use of the API, and the integration with Foundry VTT or with Discord is a bit more involved than that as well, and works by using the Foundry VTT API or a Discord Bot, which are all valid and authorized uses of those technologies.
I created an enhanced Sidekick within DDB as Homebrew. When I look at its Detail page, Beyond20 dice icon appear as they should against stats, skills, attacks, etc. When I load that Sidekick in the Extra pane of my character sheet, none of those dice icons appear at all except for one (the d6 for Bardic Inspiration). For another such Homebrew Sidekick and character, these Beyond20 icons appear just fine.
Is there something that qualifies these stats and features differently? An option (Beyond20 or DDB Homebrew) set wrong? Something between DDB, Beyond20 and Roll20?
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Well this extension still be usable once it is transferred to WoTC?
It shouldn't affect it. While we don't have any official WotC 'ruling' about it, I see absolutely no reason for them to not be as welcoming to our third party tools as DDB was before the acquisition.
Well this extension still be usable once it is transferred to WoTC?
It shouldn't affect it. While we don't have any official WotC 'ruling' about it, I see absolutely no reason for them to not be as welcoming to our third party tools as DDB was before the acquisition.
If I'm not mistaken, Roll20 has the official stamp of approval from WotC (kind of surprised they haven't tried to by them to be frank) so hopefully they'll be cool with a plugin that unites two official tools. ;-)
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But is that a fact? Does DnD Beyond has an official statement on how they view the plug in (As it's clearly against the T&C)? It's very helpful and I have many players that use it, but I don't think they are expecting to lose their accounts if they get "caught" using it, you know?
You can review the Terms of Use yourself and see what Fandom's stance on third party applications is, as well as the consequences of violating those terms of use. That would be D&D Beyonds official statement because DDB uses those terms of use (as indicated by the fact they are linked at the bottom of the page).
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
First let me say, I have a master subscription here and bought already 6 books in my first 3 months of usage. I think I proofed my intent to be a customer here.
Second, one would assume that, since there is a 30 page long thread in the official forum about a plugin, what it does, how to install it, how to use it - that you are allowed to use this plugin. I'm highly confused that I get "advised" here on the forum by users ("Iamsposta") hat I may lose my subscription and all the books I bought here, when I mention a plugin that is announced and discussed on the very same forum since May 2019(!!).
I get even more confused when I ask if its legal and you as a moderator tell me its maybe not, but you are obviously using this plugin yourself since the second post of this thread (and many more to come) is from you about the experience of using it.
I'm REALLY confused now what's going on here on how the legal state of this plugin is. Sorry for spamming this thread but I don't take it lightly to get "threatened" to lose my subscription and content because I use a tool clearly used and endorsed by moderators on this forum.
I'll try and address your points
There's no relationship between 'proof' of being a customer and the applicability of the terms of use. Everyone who uses the site in any way must abide by the terms.
The existence of this thread discussing the use of the extension does not in any way represent an official condemnation or approval of the extension. It simply means that discussing the extension does not represent a violation of the site rules and guidelines. What the other user stated is accurate; that violation of the terms of use may result in you losing access to your account and/or content.
It is not a matter of legalities, but terms of use; what you're allowed to do with the site and the service it provides. I cannot tell you if using the extension will 100% result in a loss of your account, I can merely point you to the information that covers such matters (the terms of use). I did use the extension in the past, long before I became a moderator and ceased using it before I became a mod after it proved to be too disruptive to my use of the site. This is the advice we give people; use at your own risk.
You weren't being threatened, but informed. If you're going to use an extension that interacts with D&D Beyond, it's wise to be fully aware of what that might mean.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Short version:
Roll20 is a direct competitor to DDB. DDB cannot and will not endorse a browser plug-in that advantages their direct competitor.
Also Roll20 sucks total donkey rocks and is actively terrible at everything so I'm unsure why people even want to integrate the two, but that's neither here nor there.They are not necessarily likely to zotz you over it unless you do something to make them zotz you. DDB doesn't want to ban/disenfranchise customers, but they will do whatever they feel they must to protect their business. If a plug-in designed to funnel people to their own direct competitor becomes a problem, they'll do something about it. If somebodsy makes a loud, highly visible public stink over the plug-in, they may feel a need to do something about it.
"Use at your own risk" is not a threat. It's a statement. To clarify, it states: "we may or may not have to do something about this in the future, and if we do you may get caught up in it. Nothing personal and no hostility intended; use it if you want, but be aware that it carries risk."
Please do not contact or message me.
The way I see it, after Davyd answer and reading through the Terms of Use myself is: The plugin clearly breaks Terms of Use. BUT... is not only too popular, it, also, opens up a very profitable market for Fandom - Online Play - something that DnD Beyond never has developed into.
But why would they don't address this as an exception? (Something that was stated in the Terms of Use that might occur - "Except as expressly permitted by the Company[...]") Simple, if they do address it, they are essentially endorsing a third part vendor to spread their products into an indirect competitor (Everytime someone uses Beyond20, that same person is guaranteed to not buy the book on Roll20). They simply cannot do that. Is the same as someone buying the hardcopy, homebrewing and publishing on DnD Beyond, if think about it.
But that doesn't mean they will ban you for using it, because, once again, is a great untapped market that they are gaining ground without any personal effort. So, it's better to keep silent and don't engage in bans, while getting the profits of users using a third party to play for free on the tools developed by others.
Not only that, but, with no official statement, they have the right to start banning people when they do choose to delve into VTT. It is just a very comfortable position in terms of business.
So, if you wanna keep using Beyond20, you can, but you will always be on the wrong side of the Terms of Use - meaning you have no power over what happens anymore, because you have broken the agreement you made to the company the moment you subscribed.
Well, that's my 2 cents on the matter anyway... I don't use it and, despite this being a very helpful tool, the right thing to do is to buy books on Roll20 too, if you want to access the content there - or create them from scratch - which Roll20 is pretty ok with as well.
Thank you ALL for your answers. Maybe you can still guess how I feel after being here only for 3 months then realize that the plugin discussed here is not legal.
That said, I dont even use roll20 and never said so. (Yes, I also think it's terrible and technical inferior , when I was shown it before I got my subscription here). In my original post I wrote "VTT (eg Roll20)" as an example. I would not have bought six books here otherwise.
My group decided because of this thread to start in person meetings again, since the covid-situation seems to relax soon. I cant wait to get all my figures and houses and and out and play again like it's supposed to be: on a real table :)
I know now not to mention this plugin and just focus on the bugs I found in the character sheet of DND Beyond. Thank you all again.
Also, it would be nice to get official word on the DDB side, but the creator of this plug-in has stated that he has received permission from DDB to (at least) do the Forge VTT integration (which literally imports your DDB content into the Forge VTT).
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InsidersAlright, let me intervene here for a second.
Beyond20 is a third party application, which is not officially sanctioned (and likely never would be). I don't believe that The Terms of Service affects Beyond20 because it's a passive extension that parses the information available on the page, it doesn't scrape or use the internal APIs of DDB or publishes/distributes/etc.. any of the content. It is a tool used to play on D&D Beyond.
It is also not causing people to go to Roll20, "a competitor of D&D Beyond", but quite the contrary, it allows Roll20 users to use D&D Beyond. You can't use Beyond20 without being on DDB's website, so it brings in traffic and more users and people purchase books on D&D Beyond to have access to the data on DDB which they need to use if they are using Beyond20. It's a positive for all the platforms that Beyond20 supports, a win-win-win for everybody, including the players.
The Terms of Service are what they are, they are a legal document, and as Davyd said, the ToS says that they may take action for someone abusing the platform, which is not something that they would do unless the actions taken are harmful to the D&D Beyond platform. It is also not about legality, but rather about the terms that they decide for the use of their service, it could say "You have to name your firstborn after one of our founders or we may decide to terminate your account", it doesn't mean it's illegal not to do it and it doesn't mean that they would terminate your account if you don't do it. The ToS is a legal document meant to protect them, so it needs to remain as vague as possible and give them as much power as possible so in case there is a real reason for them to terminate your account and then you sue them, they can point to the terms of service to say that they were justified because you had agreed to the terms, and that protects them against a lawsuit. That's what that clause in the Terms of Service is for.
As for the Beyond20 question specifically, and whether it's risky to use it or if D&D Beyond are ok with people using it :
Beyond20 has around 500 thousand users, and it is a well loved extension by many, including the D&D Beyond team. I am in contact with the D&D Beyond team and have been for a long time now (and I even met some of them recently at PAX, which was great) and I sometimes receive advance notice on changes they are doing to the character sheet with VIP access so I can adapt/fix Beyond20 if needed so it doesn't break when an update goes live, for example. So it is way more than a "don't let anyone know you're using it".
Also, Adam Bradford (co-founder and previously the Vice President of Tabletop gaming at D&D Beyond) publicly mentioned and recommended Beyond20 in their regular dev update streams on twitch. He did so multiple times, and I found 2 clips of that which you can view here : https://www.twitch.tv/dndbeyond/clip/CorrectRoughBatteryMikeHogu and https://www.twitch.tv/dndbeyond/clip/MoistBenevolentBeanSaltBae
I think that it is a safe bet that you will never see anyone getting banned for using Beyond20, when taking all of that into account. And all that being said, the decision is still yours, and you have to make your own decisions based on the facts that you see before you and your own adversity to risk. I can't give you a guarantee and the moderators can't give you a guarantee and nobody else can either, because if something changes 5 years from now and they decide to change their stance, nobody wants to be dragged in front of a judge and being pointed at and saying that they are liable for whatever damages because they said that it was safe in a forum post at some point in the past, etc... That's why everyone will say "they may ban" and why they say "at your own risks". I say that it's safe, I say that we are on very friendly terms with the D&D Beyond team, and I say that Beyond20 was recommended officially in public by the DDB co-founder Adam Bradford (with proof in the twitch links above), but the decision still remains yours whether you want to use it or not 🤷♂️
I hope this helps clarify it all and stops the fear and uncertainty surrounding that question.
Going to snip most of KaKaRoToDM's response and focus on being "used to play on D&D Beyond."
Prior to discovering Beyond20 as an add on - I didn't have the DM Tier Subscription.
I did not have the five (or is it six now?) digital book on D&D Beyond.
Why? Because I prefer the physical copies.
But I was already using D&D Beyond for my games (great character generator, easy to use, infinitely better than Roll20 in my opinion).
Then COVID hit. All my games went remote.
I discovered Beyond20.
I realized how easy it was to use. Checked with my players.
They dug it.
I ended up getting the DM Tier after that. Bought the Player's Handbook to share with my players.
As it went on - and we realized what a literal game changer Beyond20 was - I was buying both the physical copies of my D&D books.
But also, I was picking up digital books I could use for my campaign.
A couple of my players bought extra classes and stuff.
So Beyond20 was a literal game changer. That made D&D Beyond infinitely more useful than "just a place to store your characters to update, and print out."
It became the virtual center for my game. Because of Beyond20.
I spent money on D&D Beyond - and pay monthly - because of Beyond20.
If they ended up "banning" accounts on D&D Beyond for using Beyond20, I think it would have a massive backlash.
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Only may... damn. I thought I finally had a way to get rid of that disappointment of a first born.
That's why DnD Beyond will most likely do nothing - if someone actually needed to do something is Roll20, if 10% of that user base, just 10%, bought just the PHB there instead of using Beyond20, we are talking about 1.5M U$.
Ofc, DnD Beyond is happy with that, but one can only wonder if that is very ethical way of doing business.
Imagine if there was a third party solution that could transfer the character options from Roll20 library to DnD Beyond Character Creator, would DnD Beyond be okay with that?
Don't think it's fair to accuse KaKaRoToDM of being unethical for using Roll20's API tools that Roll20 created and opened up for use by developers like KaKaRoToDM. Roll20 also makes a lot of their income via subscriptions and marketplace sales of maps and other assets. So perhaps they'd rather those players use Roll20 as their VTT and pay in other ways (like subscription revenue year after year rather than a one-time PHB purchase). Either way, if you want to second guess Roll20's business model, go right ahead, but calling another forum member unethical for using the tools Roll20 itself created certainly seems unwarranted.
Sorry, maybe you misunderstood me. The unethical business approach is from DnD Beyond imo. Kakaroto is doing everything for free to make the game accessible for people. He is not profiting.
That's why my metaphor is about a third party using external content on DnD Beyond. Would they ban users using it?
If Roll20 is profiting or no, one can only wonder. I really don't know.
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InsidersAlthough I have no direct contact with the Roll20 team itself, from what I heard, they do like Beyond20's existence, because it also helps them. Users who might be frustrated with their character sheet and might look elsewhere for a better solution will remain on their platform if Beyond20 makes playing there easier. Similarly, D&D Beyond users who might be looking for a VTT might use Roll20 because now they can use it with their already-purchased content. Also, if you play on Roll20, even if you don't buy the PHB, you might buy the full adventure module (like Curse of Strahd for example) because buying it on Roll20 will make it "VTT ready".
As for profiting, while Beyond20 is free and open source, I do have a Patreon and a Ko-fi account for donations, which is bringing me income through generous people who like Beyond20 and want to support its development, so "He is not profiting" would be an incorrect statement.
As for the ethical aspects of it, I think that someone having to buy the same content twice (physical books + on DDB, or DDB+Roll20 books, etc..) is where I see an issue, though I wouldn't really qualify it as being unethical either, since it's not done this way intentionally (you can't validate physical purchases, and the digital one or "adapted for VTT" is different content and requires additional work as well to port that data over).
Last point I'll make, Beyond20 doesn't actually use the API from Roll20, it does everything by simulating two things and two things only :
You can verify this by making any Beyond20 roll, then pressing the up arrow in your chat box in Roll20 to see exactly what message Beyond20 sent on your behalf. It acts as nothing more than running a macro and you could likely even program your keyboard to do the exact same thing with a keyboard macro for example (but simulating pressing the 'Enter' key instead of pressing the 'Send' button).
I think there's beauty in that, as Beyond20 only passively parses the information provided by D&D Beyond in the page as it is displayed to the player, and only emulates the user sending a chat message, basically automating things the player would be doing manually and a bit more laboriously :)
Note that the HP syncing with tokens does require the use of the API, and the integration with Foundry VTT or with Discord is a bit more involved than that as well, and works by using the Foundry VTT API or a Discord Bot, which are all valid and authorized uses of those technologies.
Is there something amiss?
I created an enhanced Sidekick within DDB as Homebrew. When I look at its Detail page, Beyond20 dice icon appear as they should against stats, skills, attacks, etc. When I load that Sidekick in the Extra pane of my character sheet, none of those dice icons appear at all except for one (the d6 for Bardic Inspiration).
For another such Homebrew Sidekick and character, these Beyond20 icons appear just fine.
Is there something that qualifies these stats and features differently? An option (Beyond20 or DDB Homebrew) set wrong? Something between DDB, Beyond20 and Roll20?
Please help if you can
Brief intro on how to add and use Beyond20.
Just in case it helps somebody.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Well this extension still be usable once it is transferred to WoTC?
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InsidersIt shouldn't affect it. While we don't have any official WotC 'ruling' about it, I see absolutely no reason for them to not be as welcoming to our third party tools as DDB was before the acquisition.
If I'm not mistaken, Roll20 has the official stamp of approval from WotC (kind of surprised they haven't tried to by them to be frank) so hopefully they'll be cool with a plugin that unites two official tools. ;-)
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