At level 1 (16 attack stat, no magic weapon, target ac 12)
Longbow w/o Archery: 13d8+36 (94.5) per 20 attacks. With Archery, add 2d8+6 (+15.9%)
Longsword w/o Dueling: 13d8+36 (94.5) per 20 attacks. With Dueling, add +24 (+24.4%)
Greatsword w/o GWF: 26d6+36 (127) per 20 attacks. With GWF, add 17.3 (+13.6%)
Two Shortswords w/o TWF: 26d6+36 (127) per 20 rounds. With TWF, add 60 (+47.2%)
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst. TWF loses a lot of its potency once you have multiple attacks (because it's once per round, not once per attack) or other significant uses for bonus actions, which makes it a bit of a trap option (it's good in tier 1, mediocre in tier 2, and should be retrained to get rid of by tier 3). Archery has the best level scaling because damage per hit scales faster than hit chance, and thus a bonus to hit chance is proportionately better at high levels.
Allowing GWF to apply to bonus damage dice (i.e. ignore SAC) makes it somewhat more competitive in tier 2, but weapon choices in general could use a bit of a balance pass.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
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But does the math include smite damage? Lots of potential dice there.
Personally, I always thought of the glaive to be the 5e Fighter weapon of choice, and the swords a Paladin thing. It kind of annoys me that the limitus test is always Fighter. Like, did no one consider that the fighting styles were based around non-Fighters?
Heck. We know, directly from Mike mearls, that the default dual weilding rules are the direct result of the rogue class considerations.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I'd be tempted to allow swapping your fighting style for a feat (from a list), as there's a feat for almost every fighting style
Archery -> Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter
Defense -> Medium or Heavy Armor Mastery
Dueling -> Nothing Really
Great Weapon Fighting -> Great Weapon Mastery
Protection -> Sentinel or Shield Mastery
Two Weapon Fighting -> Dual Wielder
Other appropriate feats for concepts: Grappler (yes, it's terrible), Mounted Combatant, Tavern Brawler.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
I would always pick Defensive fighting style for my two hand builds.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
I would always pick Defensive fighting style for my two hand builds.
Monks (Way of the Kensei) and characters who don't need armour, like Tortles. Not exactly common altogether, but it happens.
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So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
Depends on their stats, but by 8th level they can probably pump themselves up enough that they're at least breaking even on AC either way. But picking up GWM is better for them anyway.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
Depends on their stats, but by 8th level they can probably pump themselves up enough that they're at least breaking even on AC either way. But picking up GWM is better for them anyway.
Only if you pump DEX or CON instead of STR which I guess you could do. But I rarely consider that.
If you started with 16 STR 14 DEX 16 CON and pumped CON to 20 then you would have 17 AC which is the exact same as just using Half-plate (15 +2 Dex)
The only real ADV you get is you remove DIS to stealth checks... Which IMO is not worth +4 STR.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
I would always pick Defensive fighting style for my two hand builds.
Monks (Way of the Kensei) and characters who don't need armour, like Tortles. Not exactly common altogether, but it happens.
Monks don't use 2 handers so I'm not tracking so much here.... Monks would be much better off using unarmed or dueling or even blind fighting.
I assumed the original post was only talking about d10 weapons because the halberd and glaive do the most damage on average once you add polearm master and great weapon master to your character. I figure if you're trying to get the most damage possible out of your fighting style, you probably also want the most possible damage in general.
I assumed the original post was only talking about d10 weapons because the halberd and glaive do the most damage on average once you add polearm master and great weapon master to your character. I figure if you're trying to get the most damage possible out of your fighting style, you probably also want the most possible damage in general.
The major issue there is that you are looking at an average of about 1 point of damage per attack....which is good I guess but generally another fighting style will likely have more impact.
You can get a +1 AC to offset your lower AC from not using a shield, you can get blind fighting to be able to never have disadvantage at swinging at an invisible creature or even give you ADV on attacks in darkness which will increase your damage output even more than 1 per attack.
Generally its the worst simply because the other styles just offer a better offset.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
Depends on their stats, but by 8th level they can probably pump themselves up enough that they're at least breaking even on AC either way. But picking up GWM is better for them anyway.
Only if you pump DEX or CON instead of STR which I guess you could do. But I rarely consider that.
If you started with 16 STR 14 DEX 16 CON and pumped CON to 20 then you would have 17 AC which is the exact same as just using Half-plate (15 +2 Dex)
The only real ADV you get is you remove DIS to stealth checks... Which IMO is not worth +4 STR.
Just find a pair of bracers of defence. They were practically made for barbarians, since they don’t impact Unarmored Defence and only work when not wearing armour or wielding a shield.
10 + 2 (DEX) + 5 (CON) + 2 (Bracers) = 19 AC at 8th level, as well as having more hit points from the boosts to CON, which is kind of the main point of the barbarian.
Plus, rage damage and the boost from GWF makes up for the +4 STR.
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
Depends on their stats, but by 8th level they can probably pump themselves up enough that they're at least breaking even on AC either way. But picking up GWM is better for them anyway.
Only if you pump DEX or CON instead of STR which I guess you could do. But I rarely consider that.
If you started with 16 STR 14 DEX 16 CON and pumped CON to 20 then you would have 17 AC which is the exact same as just using Half-plate (15 +2 Dex)
The only real ADV you get is you remove DIS to stealth checks... Which IMO is not worth +4 STR.
Just find a pair of bracers of defence. They were practically made for barbarians, since they don’t impact Unarmored Defence and only work when not wearing armour or wielding a shield.
10 + 2 (DEX) + 5 (CON) + 2 (Bracers) = 19 AC at 8th level, as well as having more hit points from the boosts to CON, which is kind of the main point of the barbarian.
Plus, rage damage and the boost from GWF makes up for the +4 STR.
"Hence, over levels 5-10, the party is expected to find:
9 common consumables.
10 uncommon consumables.
5 rare consumables.
1 very rare consumable.
6 uncommon permanent items.
2 rare permanent items."
So not only would you need to be one of the 4 who gets it but you get exactly what you want and need. It's just completely up to the DM which is not something I would count on for a build but that's just me.
"Hence, over levels 5-10, the party is expected to find:
9 common consumables.
10 uncommon consumables.
5 rare consumables.
1 very rare consumable.
6 uncommon permanent items.
2 rare permanent items."
So not only would you need to be one of the 4 who gets it but you get exactly what you want and need. It's just completely up to the DM which is not something I would count on for a build but that's just me.
I don't know any GM who ever follows any sort of checklist like that.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
"Hence, over levels 5-10, the party is expected to find:
9 common consumables.
10 uncommon consumables.
5 rare consumables.
1 very rare consumable.
6 uncommon permanent items.
2 rare permanent items."
So not only would you need to be one of the 4 who gets it but you get exactly what you want and need. It's just completely up to the DM which is not something I would count on for a build but that's just me.
I don't know any GM who ever follows any sort of checklist like that.
Well I'm saying that's the advice from the DMG as that's what Pang was quoting.
It's very table specific and all the more reason to not really rely on an item for a build.
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At level 1 (16 attack stat, no magic weapon, target ac 12)
So yes, of the offensive options GWF is by far the worst. TWF loses a lot of its potency once you have multiple attacks (because it's once per round, not once per attack) or other significant uses for bonus actions, which makes it a bit of a trap option (it's good in tier 1, mediocre in tier 2, and should be retrained to get rid of by tier 3). Archery has the best level scaling because damage per hit scales faster than hit chance, and thus a bonus to hit chance is proportionately better at high levels.
Allowing GWF to apply to bonus damage dice (i.e. ignore SAC) makes it somewhat more competitive in tier 2, but weapon choices in general could use a bit of a balance pass.
Mathematically, yes. But if you want to play a character swinging a big twohander, it's the best option out of those four nonetheless.I'm not sure why this seems to be largely overlooked in this discussion. Without Tasha's, GWF is the only style that's useful for an unarmored character with a twohander. Arguably not very useful, but anything's better than nothing.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
But does the math include smite damage? Lots of potential dice there.
Personally, I always thought of the glaive to be the 5e Fighter weapon of choice, and the swords a Paladin thing. It kind of annoys me that the limitus test is always Fighter. Like, did no one consider that the fighting styles were based around non-Fighters?
Heck. We know, directly from Mike mearls, that the default dual weilding rules are the direct result of the rogue class considerations.
I'd be tempted to allow swapping your fighting style for a feat (from a list), as there's a feat for almost every fighting style
SAC says not applicable to anything but weapon dice. Not one of my favorite sage advices.
Ah yes, an additional level 1 feat for the class that already gets 2 extra feats. Super balanced. A few of the best feats too, that's fair.
Needless to say, I am not tempted to make fighter the default best multiclass option in the game (it is already good enough).
I guess how often is there an unarmored 2 hander?
The only one I can think of is barbarian and even then you are generally better off with medium armor anyway.
I would always pick Defensive fighting style for my two hand builds.
Monks (Way of the Kensei) and characters who don't need armour, like Tortles. Not exactly common altogether, but it happens.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah, well, I don't listen to him and he's no longer official anyways, so too bad. Smite damage is in.
Depends on their stats, but by 8th level they can probably pump themselves up enough that they're at least breaking even on AC either way. But picking up GWM is better for them anyway.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Only if you pump DEX or CON instead of STR which I guess you could do. But I rarely consider that.
If you started with 16 STR 14 DEX 16 CON and pumped CON to 20 then you would have 17 AC which is the exact same as just using Half-plate (15 +2 Dex)
The only real ADV you get is you remove DIS to stealth checks... Which IMO is not worth +4 STR.
Monks don't use 2 handers so I'm not tracking so much here.... Monks would be much better off using unarmed or dueling or even blind fighting.
I assumed the original post was only talking about d10 weapons because the halberd and glaive do the most damage on average once you add polearm master and great weapon master to your character. I figure if you're trying to get the most damage possible out of your fighting style, you probably also want the most possible damage in general.
The major issue there is that you are looking at an average of about 1 point of damage per attack....which is good I guess but generally another fighting style will likely have more impact.
You can get a +1 AC to offset your lower AC from not using a shield, you can get blind fighting to be able to never have disadvantage at swinging at an invisible creature or even give you ADV on attacks in darkness which will increase your damage output even more than 1 per attack.
Generally its the worst simply because the other styles just offer a better offset.
Just find a pair of bracers of defence. They were practically made for barbarians, since they don’t impact Unarmored Defence and only work when not wearing armour or wielding a shield.
10 + 2 (DEX) + 5 (CON) + 2 (Bracers) = 19 AC at 8th level, as well as having more hit points from the boosts to CON, which is kind of the main point of the barbarian.
Plus, rage damage and the boost from GWF makes up for the +4 STR.
A rare magic item would be a stretch at level 8.
Magic item rarity according to the DMG - Rare: 5th lvl or higher. Very Rare is from lvl 11 on, so 8th level is halfway there.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
That's not the full picture...
They say one person should have a rare item (maybe 2 people but more likely 1) in a 4 person party.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/48y1d0/magic_item_distribution_by_party_level
"Hence, over levels 5-10, the party is expected to find:
9 common consumables.
10 uncommon consumables.
5 rare consumables.
1 very rare consumable.
6 uncommon permanent items.
2 rare permanent items."
So not only would you need to be one of the 4 who gets it but you get exactly what you want and need. It's just completely up to the DM which is not something I would count on for a build but that's just me.
Just wanted to say thanks for this
I don't know any GM who ever follows any sort of checklist like that.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Well I'm saying that's the advice from the DMG as that's what Pang was quoting.
It's very table specific and all the more reason to not really rely on an item for a build.