Double-Bladed Scimitar is the best option for options that add damage to each attack, like hexblade's curse, hex, crimson rite damage, hunter's mark, stuff like that. The more attacks the more damage you can get on one attack, it just takes a lot of time to set it up.
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Because you are not rolling multiple dice, there is no average. Each number has an equal probability of being rolled. Yes, the average of those numbers is 5.5, but that has nothing to do with the rolling probability.
Because you are not rolling multiple dice, there is no average. Each number has an equal probability of being rolled. Yes, the average of those numbers is 5.5, but that has nothing to do with the rolling probability.
I'm not sure how to parse this comment. 1d most certainly does have a mean value (1dN averages (N+1/2). It does not have a mode (all values are equally likely). Neither one would be used in computing rolling probability anyway.
For the duration, the weapon has a +1 bonus to attack rolls and deals an extra 1d4 damage of the chosen type when it hits.
This spell specifies that the weapon itself deals the extra 1d4, so it should benefit from the fighting style. (Someone may have asked JC on Twitter, in which case who knows? I swear sometimes he makes his rulings without checking to see if he is directly contradicting his own previous rulings.)
In addition, weapon attacks made with it deal an extra 2d8 radiant damage on a hit
This spell states that “the weapon attack” deals the extra damage, so I am not 100% sure in that case. As a DM, if it came up at my table I would rule ”yes” and then look up the official ruling before the next session. (Actually I wouldn’t “look it up,” I would double check by asking here just like you have, so I’m hoping another user can confirm that up for both of us.)
Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.
This feature says that “you” the character, cause the attack to deal the extra damage. So unless someone knows something I don’t (and that is highly probable, just maybe not in this case 🤷♂️) then as far as I know, this feature would not interact with the fighting style.
For the duration, the weapon has a +1 bonus to attack rolls and deals an extra 1d4 damage of the chosen type when it hits.
This spell specifies that the weapon itself deals the extra 1d4, so it should benefit from the fighting style. (Someone may have asked JC on Twitter, in which case who knows? I swear sometimes he makes his rulings without checking to see if he is directly contradicting his own previous rulings.)
In addition, weapon attacks made with it deal an extra 2d8 radiant damage on a hit
This spell states that “the weapon attack” deals the extra damage, so I am not 100% sure in that case. As a DM, if it came up at my table I would rule ”yes” and then look up the official ruling before the next session. (Actually I wouldn’t “look it up,” I would double check by asking here just like you have, so I’m hoping another user can confirm that up for both of us.)
Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.
This feature says that “you” the character, cause the attack to deal the extra damage. So unless someone knows something I don’t (and that is highly probable, just maybe not in this case 🤷♂️) then as far as I know, this feature would not interact with the fighting style.
You are increasing the damage of 'the attack'. Great weapon fighting applies to 'When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands'. The extra damage is part of the attack. It is not required to be part of the weapon damage. In general, anything that says 'deal extra damage' must be adding to the attack damage, and thus benefits from GWF. Note that Divine Smite does not say extra, but Improved Divine Smite does.
So im not big on all the math in DnD and im relatively new to 5e but id like to offer up an opinion.
So GWF may not add the most damage as a fighting style, but does that matter quite as much when the weapons your using are arleady doing more dmg. Lets say your using a longsword dealing 1d8 (4.5) per hit, and im using a greatsword dealing 2d6 (7) per hit. right off the bat theres a big difference (big relative to dnd math terms). Even if im not using a fighting style and your using dueling that only bumps you up to 6.5 dmg/hit with is very close but still not as high as the greatsword. now if im using GWF it bumps it up to about 7.5. Not a massive increase but what ever is in dnd.
So it looks like fighting with a big pointy thing still does more dmg than with a moderately sized pointy thing, the comparative difference between dueling and gwf just bridges the gap to make the smaller weapons a more viable option. however from here you look as other things that come along with your choice in weaponry aside from just fighting style such as feats and shields and what-not. dueling offers just a little less dmg but allows another hand for shields or even a torch. but the bigger pointy thing allows you to take GWM wich does actuall add a whole lot of dmg, providing your fighting something you can reliably hit with a -5 every swing, or perhapse figured out how to maintain advantage a majority of the time.
TLDR: GWF is a viable option, though comparatively less so when just compared to other fighting styles side-by-side, you have to consider the weapon being used because that will tell you the over-all damage your gonna do, and if your using a big ass weapon, its because you want every single extra point of dmg, which GWF gives you a little extra of.
Im like 80% on my math hear and may have forgotten something. i know i only referenced the greatsword but thats because 2d6 is the only "great weapon" for the job. 1d12 gives you the same damage as a one handed weapon with dueling so at that point why not just take the sheild and roll with it.
People keep looking at maxing out damage potential as the only metric by which to compare against things like GWFS. The point of GWFS is not to add max damage potential, but to raise both the minimum damage potential and the average damage per attack. The point is to make it more reliable, which it does, a lot.
Average total damage over 12 attacks with greatsword and no strength or other bonus: Use full distribution of each dice:
SUM 123456123456 123456123456 -> 84
Same as above but with GWF: Replace 1's and 2's with average rolls:
SUM 3.5 3.5 34563.5 3.5 3456 -> 100
Now, try this with a 1d12 weapon (i.e greataxe)
12 attacks, no GWF:
123456789 10 11 12 -> 78
12 attacks, with GWF:
6.5 6.5 3456789 10 11 12 -> 88
So, GWF causes a gain of 16 for a greatsword over 12 attacks. Which is an average of 1.333 dmg per attack, which aint bad.
When wielding a greataxe, the gain is 10 dmg over 12 attacks, which is an ave 0.8333 dmg per attack, not so great.
Besides, greatsword does 0.5 more ave dmg per swing. So the base weapon dmg of a greatsword becomes 8.333 per attack - nice! If we had the old D&D Edition double strength bonus, the numbers would get really huge.
Greataxe I think was assumed balanced based on extra crit mechanics like a barbarian's Brutal Critical and a half-orc's Savage Attack. If we assume 20 attacks at a 70% hit probability and 5% crit, without those effects a greatsword does 30d6 (105), a greataxe does 15d12 (97.5), but each extra crit die is +3.5 for the greatsword, +6.5 for the greataxe, so at +3 crit dice the greataxe pulls ahead.
wow, this is absolutely filled with wrong things, first off, unless you're using a Versatile weapon(in which case, just take dueling or defense), or a glaive or halberd(which its Polearm master Feat attack also greatly benefits from this since its a attack with a Twohanded weapon) don't use a d10. Generally they use 2D6(avg roll of 7) or d12(avg roll of 6.5), the former greatly benefits from this, more than the latter. The 2d6 weapons get an avg attack increase of 1.33, growing to 8.33, while the single d12 only grows by .83 . Its not terrible and really increases some dmg output.
How about polearm master tho?
1d10+1d4 the avg dmg of the glaive becomes 6.30 and the for the second attack 3.
Avg dmg of 9.3 isnt half bad and thats ignoring that Extra attack totally benefits from ALL of this. essentially, more dice you roll, more this helps.
Its underwhelming in comparison to say Archery or Dueling which offer a better damage increase while giving you other benefits (Archery you get to stay away...Dueling you get to have a shield). The numbers are already lower than the others for DPR but they also have better intrinsic benefits to the approach in general.
I think this contributes to the "underwhelming" aspect.
Overall its a fine choice its just not as optimal as the others. I "fix" it by adding proficiency bonus to damage on a crit.
The main reason to use great weapon fighting is so you can use a great weapon, though if it's read as applying to smite dice (as discussed above, evidence unclear) it's pretty appealing on paladin builds.
The main reason to use great weapon fighting is so you can use a great weapon, though if it's read as applying to smite dice (as discussed above, evidence unclear) it's pretty appealing on paladin builds.
Or you pick up defense so you can make up the AC loss of not having a shield
The main reason to use great weapon fighting is so you can use a great weapon, though if it's read as applying to smite dice (as discussed above, evidence unclear) it's pretty appealing on paladin builds.
Or you pick up defense so you can make up the AC loss of not having a shield
The reroll doesn't work for smite damage if I remember correctly, now I just choose blind fighting or unarmed fighting depending on the feel of the character
The reroll doesn't work for smite damage if I remember correctly, now I just choose blind fighting or unarmed fighting depending on the feel of the character
SAC has clarified that the intent is for great weapon fighting to be an inferior choice, yes.
This is going to be boring so if you want the TLDR: I put two weapon fighting in what I think are the most conducive conditions (at least at a fairly low level) and it still sucks. See below for more details.
Okay, so if you are reading this prepare for either the most annoying or interesting (and possibly humiliating if I made a mistake) experience of D&D maths aided by my insomnia-induced hallucination-filled ADD-addled brain. I went under the following assumptions: - Champion Fighter for Crits at 19 or 20 - Advantage on the attack (either through flanking, reckless from Barbarian multiclass, etc.) - Using greatsword (what I believe to be the best average damage at 2d6 for two-handed weapons and rules for great weapon fighting allows to roll either dice if you roll 1 or 2 on either) - Have great weapon master feat - The bonus action has not been used elsewhere - Attack using the most optimal combination of moves given attacking great weapon master feat (if you are curious the best move for the above conditions are: you should attack without great weapon master's penalty first to try get in a hit and then if you get a critical you should take the penalty for the bonus action attack [you don't take the penalty for your first move only because it hurts the chances of doing any damage which offsets the odds of doing greater damage with the penalty on average])
Basically I tried (using my current knowledge) to put the odds as much in favour of great weapon fighting (excluding traits like savage). I tested these conditions over various hit modifiers ranging from 0-5 against various ACs ranging from 0-25 (because who doesn't want to fight a Tarrasque ;P). If you were to take great weapon fighting style you would do an average additional damage (over not taking it) of between 0.602933333333333 and 1.74146666666667 (dependent on hit mod, opponent AC and other factors).
BASED ON THIS YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE GREAT WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE. If you are going to use the build I have above, rather take Archery for range options or Defense for AC (unless multi-classing to Barb as above in which case unarmoured defense will do). You could also look for some options in Tasha's (I haven't looked there). Or ignore what I've said and do it anyway because ultimately if you want to do it no crazy stranger (who spent precious time of the only life they'll ever live calculating figures for a game instead of doing something constructive) will be able to convince you otherwise.
(I do reserve the right to have made any mistakes on my calculations given I don't know the rules backwards and forwards but I believe they are accurate to my current knowledge)
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Double-Bladed Scimitar is the best option for options that add damage to each attack, like hexblade's curse, hex, crimson rite damage, hunter's mark, stuff like that. The more attacks the more damage you can get on one attack, it just takes a lot of time to set it up.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Because you are not rolling multiple dice, there is no average. Each number has an equal probability of being rolled. Yes, the average of those numbers is 5.5, but that has nothing to do with the rolling probability.
I'm not sure how to parse this comment. 1d most certainly does have a mean value (1dN averages (N+1/2). It does not have a mode (all values are equally likely). Neither one would be used in computing rolling probability anyway.
Does Great Weapon fighting work with Holy Weapon or Elemental Weapon? What about Improved Divine Strike?
Excerpt from Elemental Weapon:
This spell specifies that the weapon itself deals the extra 1d4, so it should benefit from the fighting style. (Someone may have asked JC on Twitter, in which case who knows? I swear sometimes he makes his rulings without checking to see if he is directly contradicting his own previous rulings.)
Excerpt from Holy Weapon:
This spell states that “the weapon attack” deals the extra damage, so I am not 100% sure in that case. As a DM, if it came up at my table I would rule ”yes” and then look up the official ruling before the next session. (Actually I wouldn’t “look it up,” I would double check by asking here just like you have, so I’m hoping another user can confirm that up for both of us.)
This feature says that “you” the character, cause the attack to deal the extra damage. So unless someone knows something I don’t (and that is highly probable, just maybe not in this case 🤷♂️) then as far as I know, this feature would not interact with the fighting style.
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You are increasing the damage of 'the attack'. Great weapon fighting applies to 'When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands'. The extra damage is part of the attack. It is not required to be part of the weapon damage. In general, anything that says 'deal extra damage' must be adding to the attack damage, and thus benefits from GWF. Note that Divine Smite does not say extra, but Improved Divine Smite does.
Pentaggruel,
Logic + grammar for the win!
(That’s why I don’t “look it up,” y’all are more reliable and consistent than SA.)
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So im not big on all the math in DnD and im relatively new to 5e but id like to offer up an opinion.
So GWF may not add the most damage as a fighting style, but does that matter quite as much when the weapons your using are arleady doing more dmg. Lets say your using a longsword dealing 1d8 (4.5) per hit, and im using a greatsword dealing 2d6 (7) per hit. right off the bat theres a big difference (big relative to dnd math terms). Even if im not using a fighting style and your using dueling that only bumps you up to 6.5 dmg/hit with is very close but still not as high as the greatsword. now if im using GWF it bumps it up to about 7.5. Not a massive increase but what ever is in dnd.
So it looks like fighting with a big pointy thing still does more dmg than with a moderately sized pointy thing, the comparative difference between dueling and gwf just bridges the gap to make the smaller weapons a more viable option. however from here you look as other things that come along with your choice in weaponry aside from just fighting style such as feats and shields and what-not. dueling offers just a little less dmg but allows another hand for shields or even a torch. but the bigger pointy thing allows you to take GWM wich does actuall add a whole lot of dmg, providing your fighting something you can reliably hit with a -5 every swing, or perhapse figured out how to maintain advantage a majority of the time.
TLDR: GWF is a viable option, though comparatively less so when just compared to other fighting styles side-by-side, you have to consider the weapon being used because that will tell you the over-all damage your gonna do, and if your using a big ass weapon, its because you want every single extra point of dmg, which GWF gives you a little extra of.
Im like 80% on my math hear and may have forgotten something. i know i only referenced the greatsword but thats because 2d6 is the only "great weapon" for the job. 1d12 gives you the same damage as a one handed weapon with dueling so at that point why not just take the sheild and roll with it.
People keep looking at maxing out damage potential as the only metric by which to compare against things like GWFS. The point of GWFS is not to add max damage potential, but to raise both the minimum damage potential and the average damage per attack. The point is to make it more reliable, which it does, a lot.
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Here's some 5e math for ya:
Average total damage over 12 attacks with greatsword and no strength or other bonus: Use full distribution of each dice:
SUM 123456123456 123456123456 -> 84
Same as above but with GWF: Replace 1's and 2's with average rolls:
SUM 3.5 3.5 34563.5 3.5 3456 -> 100
Now, try this with a 1d12 weapon (i.e greataxe)
12 attacks, no GWF:
123456789 10 11 12 -> 78
12 attacks, with GWF:
6.5 6.5 3456789 10 11 12 -> 88
So, GWF causes a gain of 16 for a greatsword over 12 attacks. Which is an average of 1.333 dmg per attack, which aint bad.
When wielding a greataxe, the gain is 10 dmg over 12 attacks, which is an ave 0.8333 dmg per attack, not so great.
Besides, greatsword does 0.5 more ave dmg per swing. So the base weapon dmg of a greatsword becomes 8.333 per attack - nice! If we had the old D&D Edition double strength bonus, the numbers would get really huge.
Greataxe I think was assumed balanced based on extra crit mechanics like a barbarian's Brutal Critical and a half-orc's Savage Attack. If we assume 20 attacks at a 70% hit probability and 5% crit, without those effects a greatsword does 30d6 (105), a greataxe does 15d12 (97.5), but each extra crit die is +3.5 for the greatsword, +6.5 for the greataxe, so at +3 crit dice the greataxe pulls ahead.
This is... not very convincing.
wow, this is absolutely filled with wrong things, first off, unless you're using a Versatile weapon(in which case, just take dueling or defense), or a glaive or halberd(which its Polearm master Feat attack also greatly benefits from this since its a attack with a Twohanded weapon) don't use a d10. Generally they use 2D6(avg roll of 7) or d12(avg roll of 6.5), the former greatly benefits from this, more than the latter. The 2d6 weapons get an avg attack increase of 1.33, growing to 8.33, while the single d12 only grows by .83 . Its not terrible and really increases some dmg output.
How about polearm master tho?
1d10+1d4 the avg dmg of the glaive becomes 6.30 and the for the second attack 3.
Avg dmg of 9.3 isnt half bad and thats ignoring that Extra attack totally benefits from ALL of this. essentially, more dice you roll, more this helps.
Sources
Its underwhelming in comparison to say Archery or Dueling which offer a better damage increase while giving you other benefits (Archery you get to stay away...Dueling you get to have a shield). The numbers are already lower than the others for DPR but they also have better intrinsic benefits to the approach in general.
I think this contributes to the "underwhelming" aspect.
Overall its a fine choice its just not as optimal as the others. I "fix" it by adding proficiency bonus to damage on a crit.
The main reason to use great weapon fighting is so you can use a great weapon, though if it's read as applying to smite dice (as discussed above, evidence unclear) it's pretty appealing on paladin builds.
Or you pick up defense so you can make up the AC loss of not having a shield
What’s the right macro??
....what?
The reroll doesn't work for smite damage if I remember correctly, now I just choose blind fighting or unarmed fighting depending on the feel of the character
SAC has clarified that the intent is for great weapon fighting to be an inferior choice, yes.
This is going to be boring so if you want the TLDR: I put two weapon fighting in what I think are the most conducive conditions (at least at a fairly low level) and it still sucks. See below for more details.
Okay, so if you are reading this prepare for either the most annoying or interesting (and possibly humiliating if I made a mistake) experience of D&D maths aided by my insomnia-induced hallucination-filled ADD-addled brain. I went under the following assumptions:
- Champion Fighter for Crits at 19 or 20
- Advantage on the attack (either through flanking, reckless from Barbarian multiclass, etc.)
- Using greatsword (what I believe to be the best average damage at 2d6 for two-handed weapons and rules for great weapon fighting allows to roll either dice if you roll 1 or 2 on either)
- Have great weapon master feat
- The bonus action has not been used elsewhere
- Attack using the most optimal combination of moves given attacking great weapon master feat (if you are curious the best move for the above conditions are: you should attack without great weapon master's penalty first to try get in a hit and then if you get a critical you should take the penalty for the bonus action attack [you don't take the penalty for your first move only because it hurts the chances of doing any damage which offsets the odds of doing greater damage with the penalty on average])
Basically I tried (using my current knowledge) to put the odds as much in favour of great weapon fighting (excluding traits like savage). I tested these conditions over various hit modifiers ranging from 0-5 against various ACs ranging from 0-25 (because who doesn't want to fight a Tarrasque ;P). If you were to take great weapon fighting style you would do an average additional damage (over not taking it) of between 0.602933333333333 and 1.74146666666667 (dependent on hit mod, opponent AC and other factors).
BASED ON THIS YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE GREAT WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE. If you are going to use the build I have above, rather take Archery for range options or Defense for AC (unless multi-classing to Barb as above in which case unarmoured defense will do). You could also look for some options in Tasha's (I haven't looked there). Or ignore what I've said and do it anyway because ultimately if you want to do it no crazy stranger (who spent precious time of the only life they'll ever live calculating figures for a game instead of doing something constructive) will be able to convince you otherwise.
(I do reserve the right to have made any mistakes on my calculations given I don't know the rules backwards and forwards but I believe they are accurate to my current knowledge)