What classes do you recommend for a party to have? So far I am looking at Clerics, Paladin, and Warlock. What classes do you think would be the worst?
I am doing a new campaign with Descent of Avernus and the number one question I get from the players is what class should I play? this is why I am asking.
Obviously there are going to be some spoilers here, so let's get at it.
First, paladin. Their aura is going to help resist a lot of the effects that the enemies will throw at them. Towards the end, there's an option involving a certain magic weapon that will be very costly if there is no paladin in the party. Also, given that devils are fond of making contracts, social skills are a must, which synergize with the paladin's Charisma-based spellcasting. Clerics are also going to be important. Avernus doesn't provide many good opportunities to rest so a designated healer is important.
Zariel's sword will shatter if anybody but a high-level Paladin attempts to smash the Solar Insidiator and save Elturel. Granted, this is not the only way to accomplish this task, it will make it impossible to redeem Zariel.
Second, somebody who is evil. This isn't a class, but soul coins are more costly to hold for good characters. Soul coins are essentially get-out-of-encounter free cards in many cases, though acquiring them isn't easy. Although it's not explicitly mentioned, a LE character who dies could come back as a devil in Avernus, which might make for some interesting ways to roleplay and avoid perma-death. Also, as a LE player, I'd secretly harbor the goal of overthrowing Zariel and seizing her throne.
Somebody with land vehicle proficiency may be valuable for using war machines if you want to lean in to the Mad Max aspects of the adventure.
The worst is hard to say. The devs of this adventure painstakingly provided lots of methods to overcome challenges. A ranger would certainly suffer, as they'd be unlikely to face their favored terrain in Avernus, unless the DM house rules an extraplanar terrain option. Unless their favored enemy is undead or fiend, they'd lack a bunch of functionality. On the other hand, a Horizon Walker is thematically appropriate. A chaotic good character is going to suffer a bunch, as the main inhabitants of Avernus will be averse to working with them. I imagine many chaotic characters will balk at making the sorts of contracts that devils demand.
A druid may suffer without the natural world, although by RAW there's no penalty for a druid acting on a different plane. I would definitely play up any exhaustion that such a character accumulates as stemming from their distance from the material plane.
Fiend warlocks are a tough call. If your patron is a demon, then your mission is that much harder. If a devil, then a savvy DM should roleplay the hell out of the patron demanding the character perform certain tasks.
For instance, a Warlock tied to Bel will have more cause to help Bel overthrow Zariel (at the risk of losing their powers entirely), a Warlock of Zariel may have to bend backwards to even be convinced to accept the mission, even being forced to lie to their own patron. Perhaps a Warlock of Zariel will switch to the Celestial subclass if Zariel can be redeemed! A warlock of Mephistopheles may have more to say about the sidequest with the arch-devil's icy mirror.
Alternatively for more role-playing moments you could play a tiefling. As you are returning to your ancestral home it would be good for more dramatic moments see the state your home is in
First of all, this thread is from 18 months ago. Second of all, tieflings are not originally from the Nine Hells; it is not in any way, shape, or form their ancestral home.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The Tieflings going back to ancestral home is a great idea, since it's so big a part of their history.
"Tieflings were human-based planetouched, native outsiders that were infused with the touch of the fiendish planes, most often through descent from fiends—demons, Yugoloths, devils, evil deities, and others who had bred with humans."
The Tieflings going back to ancestral home is a great idea, since it's so big a part of their history.
"Tieflings were human-based planetouched, native outsiders that were infused with the touch of the fiendish planes, most often through descent from fiends—demons, Yugoloths, devils, evil deities, and others who had bred with humans."
Which doesn’t mean they ever have been there before…. And most won’t have been.
The infusion of fiendish blood took place generations ago, or the tiefling would be a cambion instead.
Having just played a Sorcerer in a Descent into Avernus adventure, I'd like to point out that a _lot_ of enemies in that adventure are magic resistant. Fighting enemies that _didn't_ have advantage on saves against spells seems to be the exception. I found the standard battlefield control spells to be largely unreliable. That doesn't mean that control is completely useless, but Sleet Storm became a mainstay of my arsenal since the difficult terrain and blocked vision means it doesn't completely rely on failed saves.
Had Tasha's been out when we started, I probably would have had Grease for the same reason. One note is that Sorcerers also have fewer options than Wizards for battlefield control and so a Wizard could fare somewhat better, especially with Wall of Force. As was also mentioned by someone else, it can also be difficult to rest, especially without a Wizard to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut, and you'll largely be dependent on magical means of creating food and water unless you hand-wave that (and I wouldn't blame you, I don't find those mechanics fun).
If I were going to do it again knowing what I know now, I probably would not play an arcane spellcaster at all because it was largely frustrating and I didn't find it very fun. That being said, there are still options. I was able to RP a multi-class to Warlock and focus on damage-dealing with Quickened Spell Eldritch Blasts and Twinned Spell Hastes, which is very effective, but it's not the character I had been wanting, or anticipating, to play. In general, a spellcaster will want to focus more on boosting allies and utility.
As was also mentioned, not having a Cleric or Paladin just completely blocks your group from achieving a particular ending that, I think, a lot of groups would be hoping to achieve, and there's absolutely no indicator that it's about to happen. You think you figured out the thing and you're doing great and bam, everything you've worked toward is gone, and nevermind that you just had a whole quest to attune to the thing that basically doesn't even count. I think this blocker is complete asshattery by whoever wrote that particular part of the adventure. It's such a ridiculous contrivance that pissed me and my entire group off so we completely re-ruled it away. We did having a Cleric but, for certain reasons, he was not the one doing the thing that needed the Cleric or Paladin, instead that was being handled by a good-aligned Zealot Barbarian, which should have been just as good as a Paladin. I was also a Divine Soul Sorcerer which is basically a natural-born Cleric; there's no reason that shouldn't suffice either.
Not trying to crap on the adventure completely, these were just two standout moments that really highlighted particular classes for good or bad.
I've never been to Ireland but it's still a part of my ancestry and heritage, so I'm not sure of your point. I'd still go there to see and learn and connect if I wanted to.
The expression “ancestral home” does not refer to the place someone was born or even a place they’ve necessarily been. That’s why the word ancestral is in there, it refers to the point of origin of a family lineage or a people.
The expression “ancestral home” does not refer to the place someone was born or even a place they’ve necessarily been. That’s why the word ancestral is in there, it refers to the point of origin of a family lineage or a people.
Tieflings did not migrate from the Nine Hells to the Prime Material World. They also lack a cultural connection to the Hells. Therefore, the Nine Hells cannot be their ancestral home.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The expression “ancestral home” does not refer to the place someone was born or even a place they’ve necessarily been. That’s why the word ancestral is in there, it refers to the point of origin of a family lineage or a people.
Tieflings did not migrate from the Nine Hells to the Prime Material World. They also lack a cultural connection to the Hells. Therefore, the Nine Hells cannot be their ancestral home.
"And to twist the knife, tieflings know that this is because a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus—overlord of the Nine Hells—into their bloodline."
"Tieflings are derived from human bloodlines, and in the broadest possible sense, they still look human. However, their infernal heritage has left a clear imprint on their appearance."
Feel free to look up heritage on your own, if you similarly do not understand what that word means.
You're trying to be petty and nitpick a choice of words but unfortunately, you're not even being pedantic but just plain wrong. The word "ancestral" implies neither previous settlement nor a cultural connection of any kind. It only requires that it be of something related to your ancestors. Asmodeus is absolutely an ancestor for the current major tiefling race, with other devils being ancestors for various tiefling sub-races.
Tieflings are primarily the result of a curse that Asmodeus placed on a group of humans. They are not genetically related to him. This is not about being pedantic, this is about reading the actual lore.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Do not try to build characters that will give you advantages in terms of game mechanics in a specific module.
Choose a character that you personally want to play, give them a convincing backstory and reason to be an adventurer, and see where the adventure takes you.
If I was running a module and thought my players were trying to get advice on which classes to choose from players who already know the module, I'd turn up on the first day of gaming with a different module to run.
There is no genetic, cultural or sentimental connection between tieflings and the Hells.
Yeah, I really wish the presumption that tieflings are the product of sexual congress between a mortal and a Devil would just stop. Somewhere in the Tiefling's family tree, members had dealings with a devil, they didn't do the devil. Tieflings non humanoid baseline features are stigma not traits of parentage.
I'm also hoping within the past 18 months the OP settled on their character class discussion. Avernus is arguably a thinking person's game, but being that deliberative will get you killed on the battlefield.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Do not try to build characters that will give you advantages in terms of game mechanics in a specific module.
Choose a character that you personally want to play, give them a convincing backstory and reason to be an adventurer, and see where the adventure takes you.
If I was running a module and thought my players were trying to get advice on which classes to choose from players who already know the module, I'd turn up on the first day of gaming with a different module to run.
That's a pretty shady way to run a table. I'd probably leave if you told us build a suitable character and then pulled the rug out from under people when they did.
There is no genetic, cultural or sentimental connection between tieflings and the Hells.
Weird I was able to quote the lore then.
You were able to quote a wiki. The reference for that sentence is a 3e sourcebook. Lore has a tendency to change with each edition (and often mid edition), so your lore is 20 years out of date. The current official lore does not require or imply fiend heritage.
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What classes do you recommend for a party to have? So far I am looking at Clerics, Paladin, and Warlock. What classes do you think would be the worst?
I am doing a new campaign with Descent of Avernus and the number one question I get from the players is what class should I play? this is why I am asking.
Obviously there are going to be some spoilers here, so let's get at it.
First, paladin. Their aura is going to help resist a lot of the effects that the enemies will throw at them. Towards the end, there's an option involving a certain magic weapon that will be very costly if there is no paladin in the party. Also, given that devils are fond of making contracts, social skills are a must, which synergize with the paladin's Charisma-based spellcasting. Clerics are also going to be important. Avernus doesn't provide many good opportunities to rest so a designated healer is important.
Zariel's sword will shatter if anybody but a high-level Paladin attempts to smash the Solar Insidiator and save Elturel. Granted, this is not the only way to accomplish this task, it will make it impossible to redeem Zariel.
Second, somebody who is evil. This isn't a class, but soul coins are more costly to hold for good characters. Soul coins are essentially get-out-of-encounter free cards in many cases, though acquiring them isn't easy. Although it's not explicitly mentioned, a LE character who dies could come back as a devil in Avernus, which might make for some interesting ways to roleplay and avoid perma-death. Also, as a LE player, I'd secretly harbor the goal of overthrowing Zariel and seizing her throne.
Somebody with land vehicle proficiency may be valuable for using war machines if you want to lean in to the Mad Max aspects of the adventure.
The worst is hard to say. The devs of this adventure painstakingly provided lots of methods to overcome challenges. A ranger would certainly suffer, as they'd be unlikely to face their favored terrain in Avernus, unless the DM house rules an extraplanar terrain option. Unless their favored enemy is undead or fiend, they'd lack a bunch of functionality. On the other hand, a Horizon Walker is thematically appropriate. A chaotic good character is going to suffer a bunch, as the main inhabitants of Avernus will be averse to working with them. I imagine many chaotic characters will balk at making the sorts of contracts that devils demand.
A druid may suffer without the natural world, although by RAW there's no penalty for a druid acting on a different plane. I would definitely play up any exhaustion that such a character accumulates as stemming from their distance from the material plane.
Fiend warlocks are a tough call. If your patron is a demon, then your mission is that much harder. If a devil, then a savvy DM should roleplay the hell out of the patron demanding the character perform certain tasks.
For instance, a Warlock tied to Bel will have more cause to help Bel overthrow Zariel (at the risk of losing their powers entirely), a Warlock of Zariel may have to bend backwards to even be convinced to accept the mission, even being forced to lie to their own patron. Perhaps a Warlock of Zariel will switch to the Celestial subclass if Zariel can be redeemed! A warlock of Mephistopheles may have more to say about the sidequest with the arch-devil's icy mirror.
Alternatively for more role-playing moments you could play a tiefling. As you are returning to your ancestral home it would be good for more dramatic moments see the state your home is in
First of all, this thread is from 18 months ago. Second of all, tieflings are not originally from the Nine Hells; it is not in any way, shape, or form their ancestral home.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Classic Cleric, Fighter, Wizard, Bard
The Tieflings going back to ancestral home is a great idea, since it's so big a part of their history.
"Tieflings were human-based planetouched, native outsiders that were infused with the touch of the fiendish planes, most often through descent from fiends—demons, Yugoloths, devils, evil deities, and others who had bred with humans."
Which doesn’t mean they ever have been there before…. And most won’t have been.
The infusion of fiendish blood took place generations ago, or the tiefling would be a cambion instead.
Having just played a Sorcerer in a Descent into Avernus adventure, I'd like to point out that a _lot_ of enemies in that adventure are magic resistant. Fighting enemies that _didn't_ have advantage on saves against spells seems to be the exception. I found the standard battlefield control spells to be largely unreliable. That doesn't mean that control is completely useless, but Sleet Storm became a mainstay of my arsenal since the difficult terrain and blocked vision means it doesn't completely rely on failed saves.
Had Tasha's been out when we started, I probably would have had Grease for the same reason. One note is that Sorcerers also have fewer options than Wizards for battlefield control and so a Wizard could fare somewhat better, especially with Wall of Force. As was also mentioned by someone else, it can also be difficult to rest, especially without a Wizard to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut, and you'll largely be dependent on magical means of creating food and water unless you hand-wave that (and I wouldn't blame you, I don't find those mechanics fun).
If I were going to do it again knowing what I know now, I probably would not play an arcane spellcaster at all because it was largely frustrating and I didn't find it very fun. That being said, there are still options. I was able to RP a multi-class to Warlock and focus on damage-dealing with Quickened Spell Eldritch Blasts and Twinned Spell Hastes, which is very effective, but it's not the character I had been wanting, or anticipating, to play. In general, a spellcaster will want to focus more on boosting allies and utility.
As was also mentioned, not having a Cleric or Paladin just completely blocks your group from achieving a particular ending that, I think, a lot of groups would be hoping to achieve, and there's absolutely no indicator that it's about to happen. You think you figured out the thing and you're doing great and bam, everything you've worked toward is gone, and nevermind that you just had a whole quest to attune to the thing that basically doesn't even count. I think this blocker is complete asshattery by whoever wrote that particular part of the adventure. It's such a ridiculous contrivance that pissed me and my entire group off so we completely re-ruled it away. We did having a Cleric but, for certain reasons, he was not the one doing the thing that needed the Cleric or Paladin, instead that was being handled by a good-aligned Zealot Barbarian, which should have been just as good as a Paladin. I was also a Divine Soul Sorcerer which is basically a natural-born Cleric; there's no reason that shouldn't suffice either.
Not trying to crap on the adventure completely, these were just two standout moments that really highlighted particular classes for good or bad.
I've never been to Ireland but it's still a part of my ancestry and heritage, so I'm not sure of your point. I'd still go there to see and learn and connect if I wanted to.
The expression “ancestral home” does not refer to the place someone was born or even a place they’ve necessarily been. That’s why the word ancestral is in there, it refers to the point of origin of a family lineage or a people.
Tieflings did not migrate from the Nine Hells to the Prime Material World. They also lack a cultural connection to the Hells. Therefore, the Nine Hells cannot be their ancestral home.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
ancestor
nounhttps://www.dndbeyond.com/races/tiefling
"And to twist the knife, tieflings know that this is because a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus—overlord of the Nine Hells—into their bloodline."
"Tieflings are derived from human bloodlines, and in the broadest possible sense, they still look human. However, their infernal heritage has left a clear imprint on their appearance."
Tieflings are primarily the result of a curse that Asmodeus placed on a group of humans. They are not genetically related to him. This is not about being pedantic, this is about reading the actual lore.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Do not try to build characters that will give you advantages in terms of game mechanics in a specific module.
Choose a character that you personally want to play, give them a convincing backstory and reason to be an adventurer, and see where the adventure takes you.
If I was running a module and thought my players were trying to get advice on which classes to choose from players who already know the module, I'd turn up on the first day of gaming with a different module to run.
There is no genetic, cultural or sentimental connection between tieflings and the Hells.
Yeah, I really wish the presumption that tieflings are the product of sexual congress between a mortal and a Devil would just stop. Somewhere in the Tiefling's family tree, members had dealings with a devil, they didn't do the devil. Tieflings non humanoid baseline features are stigma not traits of parentage.
I'm also hoping within the past 18 months the OP settled on their character class discussion. Avernus is arguably a thinking person's game, but being that deliberative will get you killed on the battlefield.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
That's a pretty shady way to run a table. I'd probably leave if you told us build a suitable character and then pulled the rug out from under people when they did.
Lore as it's been written says you're wrong. You can take that up with WotC if you have such a problem.
Weird I was able to quote the lore then.
You were able to quote a wiki. The reference for that sentence is a 3e sourcebook. Lore has a tendency to change with each edition (and often mid edition), so your lore is 20 years out of date. The current official lore does not require or imply fiend heritage.