Even if the government is all papadins, the people will not be. So how much would such a city (tens of thousands) tolerate? Only one guild and ALL thieves in town are regulated? Multiple crime families but they keep the crime out of site? Or is the "criminal" operation have deal mostly in unsavory stuff in that quarter of town and the cops pretend to look the other way? What are your thoughts?
All thieves' guilds operate in "lawful good" towns. Any government is Lawful by default; most towns in which people are willing to live will be Good. How openly/brazenly a thieves' guild can operate in a given town depends on how vigilant the government is, how effective it is at enforcing its laws, where the government sits on the Good-Evil axis, and whether the thieves' guild is willing to play ball. Remember, a thieves' guild is not necessarily a Chaotic organization; criminal syndicates and crime families can be as Lawful as a government. A thieves' guild could very well have a comfortable and well-established relationship with a local government, if they aren't a part of the government. Or if they're not more or less the same thing.
To answer in short: the thieves' guild in your 'Lawful Good' town operates however the town lets it operate. Or however it bloody well wants to operate if the town government is too ineffectual to stop it.
Also, you shouldn't think of thieves guilds the same as merchant guilds or adventurers guilds.
Thief guilds (in my opinion) will mostly be a supply chain for buying and selling information, illegal services, and stolen goods. They will probably have more rules for who can be trusted with membership than how members should behave. And there is not likely to be any sort of ledger or registration, rather just a proof of membership like a mark and password.
What I was thinking was there's this "Family" of guilds in town, if the town's big enough for more than 3 groups, and suddenly the weakest gang starts muscling in on another's territory. Mostly by setting up extorting merchants that have paid off the larger family (not necessarily the largest). This way the players can come in by wanting to help the merchant, or by helping the guild (as trustworthy outsiders or whatnot). The larger guild's toughest members keep getting killed when they are off by themselves. So they are scared into running a buddy system.
The secret is where they formerly weak gang is getting the muscle.
But how big a city do I need to have competing guilds?
When considering the existence of a thieve's guild in a LG town, one would tend to assume that the thieve's guild and the LG town leaders are two completely separate, opposed, and even antagonistic sets of people.
I would contend that a town run by a group of LG people would absolutely have a thieve's guild, but that the leaders of the ThG would be some of the same ALLEGEDLY LG people who serve as the leaders of the town. Even the most devout, most ardent, and most faithful LG paladin is not LG all the time. After all... pobody's nerfect. So the idea that you could find enough "perfectly LG" people to administrate an entire town is just laughable.
Let's say there are a dozen "LG" people running this town. At best, maybe 4 of them are the "True Believers". They are truly and utterly committed, in body mind & soul, to the cause of law & goodness. They are the standard bearers. They do not falter. Period. These are the people who seem also fictional even to people who know them personally.
The next 4 leaders believe in the LG cause, and strive to maintain the LG nature of the town, but they recognize their own inherent flaws and weaknesses. They may continually strive to be LG, but they do occasionally falter. Maybe they don't donate as much to charity as they claim to. Maybe they enjoy one extra glass of wine during the sacraments. maybe they engage in a bit of town gossip now and then. They always feel bad about their transgressions, and honestly seek atonement, but they justify their faults. They tell themselves, "I'm only human", or "Everybody's doing it", or "But I felt really bad about it." These are the leaders who the people most closely identify with, because they are so relatable.
The last 4 of the "LG" leaders in this LG town appear to be LG. They say the right things and they do the right things. But to them, it's all just a racket. They play the game. To them, living all this LG mumbo-jumbo is like performing theater. "It sure beats working for a living!" There may even be many people in town who have a distinct feeling that something is just... a bit... "off" about these 4. But if you asked anyone to specify what exactly those 4 have ever said or done that is not LG, they wouldn't be able to answer. That's how good these 4 are at playing their roles. THESE are the leaders of the thieve's guild!
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
I like the idea of the LG city comprised of actual LG, naïve people and of pretending-to-be LG people who are some other alignment more aligned with criminal activities. It wouldn't take too many criminals in key positions of power to have an influential hidden-in-plain-sight operation.
There needs to be a good reason to keep the organizations hidden, though. A guild with enough power could openly operate without having to hide among the LG citizens. Then, it wouldn't really be a LG city but a city being forced to tolerate an overpowering, conflicting philosophy.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Yeah, a "Thieves' Guild" doesn't have to be an out-in-the-open organization like a Merchants' Guild. In fact, it would be a bit weird if it was, in an ostensibly well-run town!
You won't have a building that says "Thieves' Guild - we break laws here!" in big letters. But you will have a corrupt guardsman that helps evidence go missing sometimes, and a corrupt councilman that trades favors for votes, and a corrupt merchant who's willing to buy goods of "uncertain provenance"... and those guys know each other and know who else is trustworthy for them to deal with. Those guys - that's your Thieves' Guild. The bigger the town, the more of those there'll be.
And thieves not in their inner circle? Well, against those guys ("unlicensed thieves"), evidence of their crimes will always be found. Even if they were very careful not to leave any. Funny, that. And then the Lawful Good leaders of the town get to hold a nice fair trial where the unlicensed thieves get nicely and fairly convicted.
You could have there be one "thieves' guild" or multiple competing ones. They could compete both openly, fighting each other like gangs, or covertly, jockeying for influence in the town's leadership and constabulary. For inspiration, I'd think of how mafia families or crime syndicates run, even in ostensibly well-policed townds.
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Even if the government is all papadins, the people will not be. So how much would such a city (tens of thousands) tolerate? Only one guild and ALL thieves in town are regulated? Multiple crime families but they keep the crime out of site? Or is the "criminal" operation have deal mostly in unsavory stuff in that quarter of town and the cops pretend to look the other way? What are your thoughts?
All thieves' guilds operate in "lawful good" towns. Any government is Lawful by default; most towns in which people are willing to live will be Good. How openly/brazenly a thieves' guild can operate in a given town depends on how vigilant the government is, how effective it is at enforcing its laws, where the government sits on the Good-Evil axis, and whether the thieves' guild is willing to play ball. Remember, a thieves' guild is not necessarily a Chaotic organization; criminal syndicates and crime families can be as Lawful as a government. A thieves' guild could very well have a comfortable and well-established relationship with a local government, if they aren't a part of the government. Or if they're not more or less the same thing.
To answer in short: the thieves' guild in your 'Lawful Good' town operates however the town lets it operate. Or however it bloody well wants to operate if the town government is too ineffectual to stop it.
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Also, you shouldn't think of thieves guilds the same as merchant guilds or adventurers guilds.
Thief guilds (in my opinion) will mostly be a supply chain for buying and selling information, illegal services, and stolen goods. They will probably have more rules for who can be trusted with membership than how members should behave. And there is not likely to be any sort of ledger or registration, rather just a proof of membership like a mark and password.
What I was thinking was there's this "Family" of guilds in town, if the town's big enough for more than 3 groups, and suddenly the weakest gang starts muscling in on another's territory. Mostly by setting up extorting merchants that have paid off the larger family (not necessarily the largest). This way the players can come in by wanting to help the merchant, or by helping the guild (as trustworthy outsiders or whatnot). The larger guild's toughest members keep getting killed when they are off by themselves. So they are scared into running a buddy system.
The secret is where they formerly weak gang is getting the muscle.
But how big a city do I need to have competing guilds?
Probably a fairly large city. Think waterdeep (which I think even has at least 2 competing criminal organisations).
When considering the existence of a thieve's guild in a LG town, one would tend to assume that the thieve's guild and the LG town leaders are two completely separate, opposed, and even antagonistic sets of people.
I would contend that a town run by a group of LG people would absolutely have a thieve's guild, but that the leaders of the ThG would be some of the same ALLEGEDLY LG people who serve as the leaders of the town. Even the most devout, most ardent, and most faithful LG paladin is not LG all the time. After all... pobody's nerfect. So the idea that you could find enough "perfectly LG" people to administrate an entire town is just laughable.
Let's say there are a dozen "LG" people running this town. At best, maybe 4 of them are the "True Believers". They are truly and utterly committed, in body mind & soul, to the cause of law & goodness. They are the standard bearers. They do not falter. Period. These are the people who seem also fictional even to people who know them personally.
The next 4 leaders believe in the LG cause, and strive to maintain the LG nature of the town, but they recognize their own inherent flaws and weaknesses. They may continually strive to be LG, but they do occasionally falter. Maybe they don't donate as much to charity as they claim to. Maybe they enjoy one extra glass of wine during the sacraments. maybe they engage in a bit of town gossip now and then. They always feel bad about their transgressions, and honestly seek atonement, but they justify their faults. They tell themselves, "I'm only human", or "Everybody's doing it", or "But I felt really bad about it." These are the leaders who the people most closely identify with, because they are so relatable.
The last 4 of the "LG" leaders in this LG town appear to be LG. They say the right things and they do the right things. But to them, it's all just a racket. They play the game. To them, living all this LG mumbo-jumbo is like performing theater. "It sure beats working for a living!" There may even be many people in town who have a distinct feeling that something is just... a bit... "off" about these 4. But if you asked anyone to specify what exactly those 4 have ever said or done that is not LG, they wouldn't be able to answer. That's how good these 4 are at playing their roles. THESE are the leaders of the thieve's guild!
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
I like the idea of the LG city comprised of actual LG, naïve people and of pretending-to-be LG people who are some other alignment more aligned with criminal activities. It wouldn't take too many criminals in key positions of power to have an influential hidden-in-plain-sight operation.
There needs to be a good reason to keep the organizations hidden, though. A guild with enough power could openly operate without having to hide among the LG citizens. Then, it wouldn't really be a LG city but a city being forced to tolerate an overpowering, conflicting philosophy.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Yeah, a "Thieves' Guild" doesn't have to be an out-in-the-open organization like a Merchants' Guild. In fact, it would be a bit weird if it was, in an ostensibly well-run town!
You won't have a building that says "Thieves' Guild - we break laws here!" in big letters. But you will have a corrupt guardsman that helps evidence go missing sometimes, and a corrupt councilman that trades favors for votes, and a corrupt merchant who's willing to buy goods of "uncertain provenance"... and those guys know each other and know who else is trustworthy for them to deal with. Those guys - that's your Thieves' Guild. The bigger the town, the more of those there'll be.
And thieves not in their inner circle? Well, against those guys ("unlicensed thieves"), evidence of their crimes will always be found. Even if they were very careful not to leave any. Funny, that. And then the Lawful Good leaders of the town get to hold a nice fair trial where the unlicensed thieves get nicely and fairly convicted.
You could have there be one "thieves' guild" or multiple competing ones. They could compete both openly, fighting each other like gangs, or covertly, jockeying for influence in the town's leadership and constabulary. For inspiration, I'd think of how mafia families or crime syndicates run, even in ostensibly well-policed townds.