I've always loved tabletop WarGames, and I was wondering if there existed a D&D tabletop wargame. the idea seems obvious enough to me that it's almost hard to imagine no one's done it, especially since D&D came out of a war game. Does anyone know of a system that is specifically meant to be that? I mean a professionally done system or a homebrew kind of thing that's got some amount of establishment or community behind it?
The short answer is yes, there was one. During the end of the 3rd edition era and through most of the 4th edition era there was a miniatures game that could be played on battle maps and such using the pre-painted plastic D&D minis that Wizards was putting out at the time. Near the end of 4th Ed, Wizards dropped the game portion from the minis and went back to just selling figurines with no minis-game statistics.
If you play with miniatures, and a battlemat, and closely adhere to the rules ( downplaying "the rule of cool" ), how does that differ from a wargame, exactly? So .... yes? It's called D&D?
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In a wargame you have allotment mechanics. D&D doesn't. That's a major distinction. You also would remove mechanics that require adjudication by a DM, and anything else that isn't germaine to a wargame. Unit rules are helpful, and speed up gameplay, so it's a good idea to address that too.
I have the rules for chainmail 3E, but it isn't terribly satisfying. I wasn't aware of the successors, but that gives me something to look at.
OK. I think that's a pretty narrowly specific definition of a war game, but if that's what you're looking for, that's fine.
By some definitions I've seen, Chess is a wargame, and it has none of that. One of the original wargames - theKriegsspiel, developed to train 19th century Prussian military officers - absolutely had an umpire / GM ( in fact the truly accomplished umpires apparently stopped using the tables and dice, and went with their judgement as experienced battlefield officers - so almost the opposite happened ).
To be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by "allotment mechanics", but apart from a period in my life when I played Star Fleet Battles I've never been much of a war-gamer ( although Advanced Squad Leader looks intriguing, if huge ).
Some googling around will find a PDF copy of the 3rd Edition rules of Chainmail. but as it's very likely a copyright infringing non-authorized scan, I don't think I should copy a link.
As for D&D, Matt Colville'sStrongholds and Followershas small unit tactical warfare rules for D&D in it ( I've not used them, yet ), and the upcoming Kingdoms & Warfare is supposed to expand on this.
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I'm using wargame in the sense that it is typically used in 'hobby circles' like D&D players, and the sort of stores that cater to both. In a more broad sense, yes, quite a lot of other things qualify, including some things that don't even use a table.
By allotment rules I mean rules defining what you can field. Chess has an implied limit of specific pieces, for example. Warhammer and Chainmail assign point values. Things like that.
I have one of the old hardcopies of Chainmail from back when it was printed, though the fan community produced a revised 3rd edition a few years back. It never occurred to me to wonder about the legality of a revised ruleset.
Unless I'm misunderstanding them signifigantly, S&F and K&W are rpg supplements focusing on playing a D&D character in the context of rulership and war.
There were at least two editions of Battlesystem, the first was a boxed set that came out for 1st ed. AD&D and included a pretty simplistic set of rules and a bunch of punch out cardboard chits representing various creatures and troops. TSR published a 2nd edition of Battlesystem to accompany 2nd ed. AD&D, this time as a softbound book that presented a simplistic set of rules for the use of minis in a tabletop wargame. Ral Partha actually released a line of minis devoted to the Battlesystem rules. They came as boxed sets like the army boxes from other companies such as Games Workshop. I believe there were 4 or 5 of those released before lack of interest killed off Battle System.
Oh, and I nearly forgot about the Birthright materials for - I believe - 2nd ed. Essentially another D&D world, the Birthright materials focused on allowing players to build and rule kingdoms and I believe it had some rudimentary wargame rules for TTWGing as well (I never played that system or that campaign world, so take my words with appropriate salt).
You have a badass creative in Runehammer that tweaks what he's very familiar with (5E) and makes things like War-Maker (find it on DriveThru RPG I think). I don't know if it's D&D specific but I'm sure there's inspiration and a few pokes at what he's liked/disliked about tactical 5e style combat.
You have 4th edition D&D. Grab some encounter cards (at-will, daily, etc.), mini's, and terrain and have at it.
You have D&D Attack Wing, a tactical flight and ground combat miniatures combat game by Wizkids. Along the lines of X-Wing Miniatures game and Hero-Clix stuff.
You have many boardgames based on D&D worlds and systems.
I know I am late to the party, but I am actually currently trying to make one myself, roughly based off of chess (loosely). I plan to draw up a draft and potentially play test it over winter break once my final exams are done. I will update here (if I remember lol) with the first or so version once I finish the drafting and revision process!
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I've always loved tabletop WarGames, and I was wondering if there existed a D&D tabletop wargame. the idea seems obvious enough to me that it's almost hard to imagine no one's done it, especially since D&D came out of a war game. Does anyone know of a system that is specifically meant to be that? I mean a professionally done system or a homebrew kind of thing that's got some amount of establishment or community behind it?
Uh, D&D grew out of a wargame. It was called Chainmail. It's where D&D got its start, as a wargame (as a rules supplement for Chainmail).
I'm sure with sufficient Google-fu the Chainmail rules are still out there somewhere.
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The short answer is yes, there was one. During the end of the 3rd edition era and through most of the 4th edition era there was a miniatures game that could be played on battle maps and such using the pre-painted plastic D&D minis that Wizards was putting out at the time. Near the end of 4th Ed, Wizards dropped the game portion from the minis and went back to just selling figurines with no minis-game statistics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_Miniatures_Game
If you play with miniatures, and a battlemat, and closely adhere to the rules ( downplaying "the rule of cool" ), how does that differ from a wargame, exactly? So .... yes? It's called D&D?
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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In a wargame you have allotment mechanics. D&D doesn't. That's a major distinction. You also would remove mechanics that require adjudication by a DM, and anything else that isn't germaine to a wargame. Unit rules are helpful, and speed up gameplay, so it's a good idea to address that too.
I have the rules for chainmail 3E, but it isn't terribly satisfying. I wasn't aware of the successors, but that gives me something to look at.
I think the version that came out previously was more along the lines of Malifaux or Kill Team or Warcry.
With each fig having multiple hp and no real unit/squad rules it wasn't much of a war game per se. More like simplified D&D without the role play.
There are a number of mass combat systems currently and soon to be out.
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OK. I think that's a pretty narrowly specific definition of a war game, but if that's what you're looking for, that's fine.
By some definitions I've seen, Chess is a wargame, and it has none of that. One of the original wargames - the Kriegsspiel, developed to train 19th century Prussian military officers - absolutely had an umpire / GM ( in fact the truly accomplished umpires apparently stopped using the tables and dice, and went with their judgement as experienced battlefield officers - so almost the opposite happened ).
To be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by "allotment mechanics", but apart from a period in my life when I played Star Fleet Battles I've never been much of a war-gamer ( although Advanced Squad Leader looks intriguing, if huge ).
Some googling around will find a PDF copy of the 3rd Edition rules of Chainmail. but as it's very likely a copyright infringing non-authorized scan, I don't think I should copy a link.
As for D&D, Matt Colville's Strongholds and Followers has small unit tactical warfare rules for D&D in it ( I've not used them, yet ), and the upcoming Kingdoms & Warfare is supposed to expand on this.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I'm using wargame in the sense that it is typically used in 'hobby circles' like D&D players, and the sort of stores that cater to both. In a more broad sense, yes, quite a lot of other things qualify, including some things that don't even use a table.
By allotment rules I mean rules defining what you can field. Chess has an implied limit of specific pieces, for example. Warhammer and Chainmail assign point values. Things like that.
I have one of the old hardcopies of Chainmail from back when it was printed, though the fan community produced a revised 3rd edition a few years back. It never occurred to me to wonder about the legality of a revised ruleset.
Unless I'm misunderstanding them signifigantly, S&F and K&W are rpg supplements focusing on playing a D&D character in the context of rulership and war.
Isn't that what 4th edition is?
:-)
It is if you didn't actually learn how to play 4th edition, yes.
There were at least two editions of Battlesystem, the first was a boxed set that came out for 1st ed. AD&D and included a pretty simplistic set of rules and a bunch of punch out cardboard chits representing various creatures and troops. TSR published a 2nd edition of Battlesystem to accompany 2nd ed. AD&D, this time as a softbound book that presented a simplistic set of rules for the use of minis in a tabletop wargame. Ral Partha actually released a line of minis devoted to the Battlesystem rules. They came as boxed sets like the army boxes from other companies such as Games Workshop. I believe there were 4 or 5 of those released before lack of interest killed off Battle System.
Oh, and I nearly forgot about the Birthright materials for - I believe - 2nd ed. Essentially another D&D world, the Birthright materials focused on allowing players to build and rule kingdoms and I believe it had some rudimentary wargame rules for TTWGing as well (I never played that system or that campaign world, so take my words with appropriate salt).
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Besides D&D Attack Wing, there is also D&D Dungeon Command if you want a wargame themed specifically for D&D.
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I know I am late to the party, but I am actually currently trying to make one myself, roughly based off of chess (loosely). I plan to draw up a draft and potentially play test it over winter break once my final exams are done. I will update here (if I remember lol) with the first or so version once I finish the drafting and revision process!