My character (a Rogue wanting to turn legit) is going to be a Guild Artisan Locksmith. Seemed to me that the Thieves Tools are fine for lock picking but not for a locksmith, so assume need the Artisan Tools for a Smith but I can't find any description of what actual tools that would include for a Locksmith. Looking for ideas of what tools make sense for a locksmith that would have reasonable existed in medieval times.
I wrestled with whether the Locksmith would do the forging but my thought was if they can forge the pieces for a lock then they should be able to forge anything and therefore that is a blacksmith. So I am leaning that a Locksmith would define the pieces that need to be forged, have a blacksmith forge them, and then Locksmith does the assemble - and based on this I am trying to figure out just what tools would be needed for assemble. I am guessing my character won't actually be doing any more locksmithing once he starts adventuring so it is basically an exercise to figure out what equipment he has from locksmithing versus maybe still needing to buy separately (as one example, a hammer).
Thank you to everyone's input so far. The issue is the PHB doesn't define what is in the tinkers tools either, but doing some research seems it mostly thought of to consist of items to do mending and mainly of softer materials. After reviewing again what comes with the Thieves Tools I think that itself is the right match if I were to continue to go with the idea the locksmith does not do the actual smithing, but then that largely means everyone using Thieves Tools is then on some level a Locksmith - so I have changed my perspective to decide at least for me (and hopefully my DM agrees) that yes a Locksmith is a (black)smith that specializes in making locks ( Noksa I hope you feel vindicated - smile ).
Yeah the PHB doesn't have any rules, mechanics, or descriptions for most of the tools. Later they realized they accidently skipped a whole aspect of their game that many races and backgrounds had features dedicated to and decided to put some mini, suggestion type rules in a supplement rule book and included tool descriptions.
Though why the tools previously only described as being used to make clocks, toys, lighters, and other mechanical devices and tools are now described as mostly being used to mend clothes, sharpen swords, and patch chain mail is beyond me. In the sourcebooks that come out after XGtE, they go right back to treating tinker's tools as an electrician's toolbox. The gunslinger uses it to make guns, the artificer uses it to make light bulbs, tape recorders, and complete sets of other tools. Got to love the consistency of this game...
I would state that a someone having to make the locks would need thieves' tools and tinker's tool to cover everything to make the parts for old style locks. I think tinker tools instead of blacksmith tools as I see them shaping the metal parts from stock with files and stuff, not forging. Forge to me is more for large scale works where locks are fine detailed construction. Also I view locks as like clockwork style construction so that stuff tinkers do.
A locksmith should use thieves' tools and tinker's tool to make locks and other stuff which would help a redan locksmiths to become a professional in his field.
I'm not sure anything in a medieval lock would be forged steel.
In a world with magic and huge critters and treasure vaults and svirfneblin halls under the mountains, think bigger than padlocks on money chests or barred jail cells. A wizard might need a forged lock for their arcane library. Shackles to keep a Cyclops in check need to be stronger than mere iron, and so do the locks holding them in place. A dwarven king keeping his ancestral arms and heirlooms under lock and key might not settle for iron either, and they'll have master craftsmen at their beck and call.
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I'm not sure anything in a medieval lock would be forged steel.
Faerûn feels closer to the Renaissance/very late medieval/early modern period, with the existence of large sailing ships as well as cannons and firearms making limited appearances and starting to be a thing. By the Renaissance period, while high quality steel is still expensive and rare, it is not impossible to make, and in D&D with the aid of magic, steel is probably easier and cheaper to make.
I would personally go for adamantine or mithral, but steel seems a lot more economical.
Since you are wandering around in uncharted waters anyway, you might as well just call them Locksmith's Tools and be done with it. What specific tools are in the box?
A tiny hammer. Screwdrivers. Files. Pliers. Tinsnips. Hole punches. Drills. Saws for metal and wood. Everything you find in a normal set of Thief's Tools; lengths of wire, a magnifying glass, a little can of oil, a crowbar... Locksmiths didn't forge anything, they assembled. Blacksmiths and Whitesmiths forged stuff. Tinkers mostly did repair work.
Last but not least, a Big Hammer. When all else fails a Sledge Hammer convinces the most stubborn locks to open.
Well, for the "a locksmith who can forge pieces for a lock could forge anything" argument, there's a distinct difference in the two types of forging - making weapons is about the right grades of steel, hardening, tempering, making the grain go in the right direction, sharpening, holding the edge without becoming brittle. Making the parts for a lock is about fiddly details, exact shapes, parts fitting together perfectly. The comparison drawn here is like saying "this person can paint a wall without drips or brushmarks, so they must be able to make me a portrait of my favorite dog". (not belittling making blades, just making the generalization between big things done right vs fiddly things done right).
A locksmith would need to be able to open locks without a working key, in case the key they made didn't work properly - so lockpicking tools are a must. Tinkers tools for filing things down, soldering to others, and shaping small pieces of metal. Possibly a hand-drill for stubborn locks. Higher level ones might have a small pendant of anti-magic to prevent magical traps from triggering ("I locked my key inside my enchanted chest that traps anyone without the key inside it, help!"), in the same way as a maintenance engineer might have a lockout tag to keep a machine switched off when they're working on it.
Yes, you are right, a locksmith can open the lock in case if it's not opening properly or having trouble unlocking the door lock. So, in those cases hiring them isn't a bad idea at all.
Thieves' Tools are 100% what a locksmith would be using in period... and not just to pick locks, but make them too.
I WOULD have said Tinker's Tools, but the component list is all wrong... and I would also say Carpenter's tools, but again, the tools are wrong... so I'd say Smith's tools, but you get the idea.
Metal locks in any time period are made with percision that you just can't get from smithing. Metal, especially in the form of locks has a lot of problems, and that means that you're generally going to be working with brass. Brass is far less fussy, and far easier to work with, while still being strong enough for anything a human can put out. It also looks nicer than iron ever will, and will last longer in all weather. If you want more on that, let me know, and I'll tell you.
Besides that, you're going to need carving tools and files, because unless you're exclusively making padlocks (which don't really work in period), you need hide your lock inside something like a coffer or a door. Boring out a hole also means that you don't need a pin or grease to make your lock work. They can just be simple fittings inside a hole, which it's REALLY EASY to get tools to match up with... and it's also your job to install the lock. The carpenters and jointers don't do that.
If you're making a locksmith, you're going to want wood carver's tools and thieves' tools.
Lastly, from a blacksmith, why you don't need a blacksmith for this: Steel was used for edges and jewelery, but it's a pain to shape. Wrought iron swells and expands (delamination) which means your lock would literally destroy itself over time. Cast iron is cheap, but brittle as can be, and doesn't work out well when torqued (like when turning a key), and gets weaker the thinner you get it... and that's all before we even get to it rusting. You don't need a lock for stuff inside your own home. Your home, your grounds, your servants, and possibly guards do that for you. The poor don't have anything worth locking up... so if it's locked, that's because your traveling with it, and your lock is very likely to rust if it's iron of any kind... which leaves you with brass.
Edit: To make a padlock, you'd want Jeweler's Tools. They have the saws, files, and jazz needed to make a percise bit of tech that revolves around a pin while working in coin metals (like copper and bronze).
I'm not sure anything in a medieval lock would be forged steel.
Faerûn feels closer to the Renaissance/very late medieval/early modern period, with the existence of large sailing ships as well as cannons and firearms making limited appearances and starting to be a thing. By the Renaissance period, while high quality steel is still expensive and rare, it is not impossible to make, and in D&D with the aid of magic, steel is probably easier and cheaper to make.
I would personally go for adamantine or mithral, but steel seems a lot more economical.
I'd like to offer, "Debatably."
Like, crucible steel, heck yeah. Literally, Crucible Steel (better steel) could be better distributed thanks to magic if they use magic to perform the heating, or replace hurricane force winds (and let's be serious, they can.)... but most of the world that was copper and tin poor while experiencing the iron age didn't have the weather required to make crucible steel (sure, fantasy worlds can).
However, pattern steel, heck naw. The problem there isn't tech, but labour. They'd take cast iron and forge weld it over and over to burn out the chemical impurities and drop the carbon content to that of steel. Cheaper steels had fewer welds and made what most of us think of when we hear Damascus. A greater number gave us the steel of the Renaissance... and magic won't lower your wages.
I'm not sure anything in a medieval lock would be forged steel.
Faerûn feels closer to the Renaissance/very late medieval/early modern period, with the existence of large sailing ships as well as cannons and firearms making limited appearances and starting to be a thing. By the Renaissance period, while high quality steel is still expensive and rare, it is not impossible to make, and in D&D with the aid of magic, steel is probably easier and cheaper to make.
I would personally go for adamantine or mithral, but steel seems a lot more economical.
I'd like to offer, "Debatably."
Like, crucible steel, heck yeah. Literally, Crucible Steel (better steel) could be better distributed thanks to magic if they use magic to perform the heating, or replace hurricane force winds (and let's be serious, they can.)... but most of the world that was copper and tin poor while experiencing the iron age didn't have the weather required to make crucible steel (sure, fantasy worlds can).
However, pattern steel, heck naw. The problem there isn't tech, but labour. They'd take cast iron and forge weld it over and over to burn out the chemical impurities and drop the carbon content to that of steel. Cheaper steels had fewer welds and made what most of us think of when we hear Damascus. A greater number gave us the steel of the Renaissance... and magic won't lower your wages.
Ball bearings can be made and sold profitably at a price of 1 gp for 1000 of them. That's the same price as a bedroll, half what a barrel costs. Metalwork prices seem to take into account some very efficient techniques.
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Ball bearings can be made and sold profitably at a price of 1 gp for 1000 of them. That's the same price as a bedroll, half what a barrel costs. Metalwork prices seem to take into account some very efficient techniques.
Shot towers mean the effort needed to produce a large quantity of reasonably round ball bearings is quite low: you melt a bunch steel/iron/whatever, and let it drip down a really tall building into some water. instant balls.
I think that underestimates the kind of tolerances required to make ball bearings functional.
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My character (a Rogue wanting to turn legit) is going to be a Guild Artisan Locksmith. Seemed to me that the Thieves Tools are fine for lock picking but not for a locksmith, so assume need the Artisan Tools for a Smith but I can't find any description of what actual tools that would include for a Locksmith. Looking for ideas of what tools make sense for a locksmith that would have reasonable existed in medieval times.
I feel like it would be a specialized blacksmith. That said tinker tools are the miscellaneous make gizmos toolset.
I wrestled with whether the Locksmith would do the forging but my thought was if they can forge the pieces for a lock then they should be able to forge anything and therefore that is a blacksmith. So I am leaning that a Locksmith would define the pieces that need to be forged, have a blacksmith forge them, and then Locksmith does the assemble - and based on this I am trying to figure out just what tools would be needed for assemble. I am guessing my character won't actually be doing any more locksmithing once he starts adventuring so it is basically an exercise to figure out what equipment he has from locksmithing versus maybe still needing to buy separately (as one example, a hammer).
Yeah, I'd probably point you at tinkers tools in that case.
My locksmith character used tinkers tools and thieves tools.
Thank you to everyone's input so far. The issue is the PHB doesn't define what is in the tinkers tools either, but doing some research seems it mostly thought of to consist of items to do mending and mainly of softer materials. After reviewing again what comes with the Thieves Tools I think that itself is the right match if I were to continue to go with the idea the locksmith does not do the actual smithing, but then that largely means everyone using Thieves Tools is then on some level a Locksmith - so I have changed my perspective to decide at least for me (and hopefully my DM agrees) that yes a Locksmith is a (black)smith that specializes in making locks ( Noksa I hope you feel vindicated - smile ).
Yeah the PHB doesn't have any rules, mechanics, or descriptions for most of the tools. Later they realized they accidently skipped a whole aspect of their game that many races and backgrounds had features dedicated to and decided to put some mini, suggestion type rules in a supplement rule book and included tool descriptions.
Though why the tools previously only described as being used to make clocks, toys, lighters, and other mechanical devices and tools are now described as mostly being used to mend clothes, sharpen swords, and patch chain mail is beyond me. In the sourcebooks that come out after XGtE, they go right back to treating tinker's tools as an electrician's toolbox. The gunslinger uses it to make guns, the artificer uses it to make light bulbs, tape recorders, and complete sets of other tools. Got to love the consistency of this game...
Interesting, it looks like modern locksmiths pretty much just use thieves' tools https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqm378eagfw
I would state that a someone having to make the locks would need thieves' tools and tinker's tool to cover everything to make the parts for old style locks. I think tinker tools instead of blacksmith tools as I see them shaping the metal parts from stock with files and stuff, not forging. Forge to me is more for large scale works where locks are fine detailed construction. Also I view locks as like clockwork style construction so that stuff tinkers do.
You can buy those lock pick tools at any locksmith store in your area and manual will help to use those tools.
A locksmith should use thieves' tools and tinker's tool to make locks and other stuff which would help a redan locksmiths to become a professional in his field.
I'm not sure anything in a medieval lock would be forged steel.
In a world with magic and huge critters and treasure vaults and svirfneblin halls under the mountains, think bigger than padlocks on money chests or barred jail cells. A wizard might need a forged lock for their arcane library. Shackles to keep a Cyclops in check need to be stronger than mere iron, and so do the locks holding them in place. A dwarven king keeping his ancestral arms and heirlooms under lock and key might not settle for iron either, and they'll have master craftsmen at their beck and call.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Faerûn feels closer to the Renaissance/very late medieval/early modern period, with the existence of large sailing ships as well as cannons and firearms making limited appearances and starting to be a thing. By the Renaissance period, while high quality steel is still expensive and rare, it is not impossible to make, and in D&D with the aid of magic, steel is probably easier and cheaper to make.
I would personally go for adamantine or mithral, but steel seems a lot more economical.
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Since you are wandering around in uncharted waters anyway, you might as well just call them Locksmith's Tools and be done with it. What specific tools are in the box?
A tiny hammer. Screwdrivers. Files. Pliers. Tinsnips. Hole punches. Drills. Saws for metal and wood. Everything you find in a normal set of Thief's Tools; lengths of wire, a magnifying glass, a little can of oil, a crowbar... Locksmiths didn't forge anything, they assembled. Blacksmiths and Whitesmiths forged stuff. Tinkers mostly did repair work.
Last but not least, a Big Hammer. When all else fails a Sledge Hammer convinces the most stubborn locks to open.
<Insert clever signature here>
Well, for the "a locksmith who can forge pieces for a lock could forge anything" argument, there's a distinct difference in the two types of forging - making weapons is about the right grades of steel, hardening, tempering, making the grain go in the right direction, sharpening, holding the edge without becoming brittle. Making the parts for a lock is about fiddly details, exact shapes, parts fitting together perfectly. The comparison drawn here is like saying "this person can paint a wall without drips or brushmarks, so they must be able to make me a portrait of my favorite dog". (not belittling making blades, just making the generalization between big things done right vs fiddly things done right).
A locksmith would need to be able to open locks without a working key, in case the key they made didn't work properly - so lockpicking tools are a must. Tinkers tools for filing things down, soldering to others, and shaping small pieces of metal. Possibly a hand-drill for stubborn locks. Higher level ones might have a small pendant of anti-magic to prevent magical traps from triggering ("I locked my key inside my enchanted chest that traps anyone without the key inside it, help!"), in the same way as a maintenance engineer might have a lockout tag to keep a machine switched off when they're working on it.
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Yes, you are right, a locksmith can open the lock in case if it's not opening properly or having trouble unlocking the door lock. So, in those cases hiring them isn't a bad idea at all.
Hi, local Blacksmith and lover of history.
Thieves' Tools are 100% what a locksmith would be using in period... and not just to pick locks, but make them too.
I WOULD have said Tinker's Tools, but the component list is all wrong... and I would also say Carpenter's tools, but again, the tools are wrong... so I'd say Smith's tools, but you get the idea.
Metal locks in any time period are made with percision that you just can't get from smithing. Metal, especially in the form of locks has a lot of problems, and that means that you're generally going to be working with brass. Brass is far less fussy, and far easier to work with, while still being strong enough for anything a human can put out. It also looks nicer than iron ever will, and will last longer in all weather. If you want more on that, let me know, and I'll tell you.
Besides that, you're going to need carving tools and files, because unless you're exclusively making padlocks (which don't really work in period), you need hide your lock inside something like a coffer or a door. Boring out a hole also means that you don't need a pin or grease to make your lock work. They can just be simple fittings inside a hole, which it's REALLY EASY to get tools to match up with... and it's also your job to install the lock. The carpenters and jointers don't do that.
If you're making a locksmith, you're going to want wood carver's tools and thieves' tools.
Lastly, from a blacksmith, why you don't need a blacksmith for this: Steel was used for edges and jewelery, but it's a pain to shape. Wrought iron swells and expands (delamination) which means your lock would literally destroy itself over time. Cast iron is cheap, but brittle as can be, and doesn't work out well when torqued (like when turning a key), and gets weaker the thinner you get it... and that's all before we even get to it rusting. You don't need a lock for stuff inside your own home. Your home, your grounds, your servants, and possibly guards do that for you. The poor don't have anything worth locking up... so if it's locked, that's because your traveling with it, and your lock is very likely to rust if it's iron of any kind... which leaves you with brass.
Edit: To make a padlock, you'd want Jeweler's Tools. They have the saws, files, and jazz needed to make a percise bit of tech that revolves around a pin while working in coin metals (like copper and bronze).
I'd like to offer, "Debatably."
Like, crucible steel, heck yeah. Literally, Crucible Steel (better steel) could be better distributed thanks to magic if they use magic to perform the heating, or replace hurricane force winds (and let's be serious, they can.)... but most of the world that was copper and tin poor while experiencing the iron age didn't have the weather required to make crucible steel (sure, fantasy worlds can).
However, pattern steel, heck naw. The problem there isn't tech, but labour. They'd take cast iron and forge weld it over and over to burn out the chemical impurities and drop the carbon content to that of steel. Cheaper steels had fewer welds and made what most of us think of when we hear Damascus. A greater number gave us the steel of the Renaissance... and magic won't lower your wages.
Ball bearings can be made and sold profitably at a price of 1 gp for 1000 of them. That's the same price as a bedroll, half what a barrel costs. Metalwork prices seem to take into account some very efficient techniques.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think that underestimates the kind of tolerances required to make ball bearings functional.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].