You know the use of the letter 'N' instead of an ampersand is only because of how domain names are set up, right?
The ampersand is used in every logo, and even shows up when I look at what my browser tab (rather than the address bar) says I am looking at.
Dear lord, I guess you don't watch Critical Role at all. They say that at the beginning of every show when they are plugging this. It's called humor, obviously not your brand, so please stop taking my posts so seriously. Not sure why you feel the need to pick out specific words on my posts and completely ignore the actual content but if that's what floats your boat then by all means, pick away! Now I feel bad about replying to a meaningless reply lol
Quote from Cee>> However, you said you don't care about MSRP which is ridiculous as you need to have a reference point to obtain value. Otherwise you wouldn't know if what you just bought was a bad deal, a good deal or a great deal.
True, it sets a value on what they manufacturer says it should be, a nice baseline. I was more talking about actual purchase prices of the books compared to the actual prices on here. The market has dictated value of the product after release so I go by that and not the MSRP when comparing out of pocket expense.
Dear lord, I guess you don't watch Critical Role at all.
I sure don't. Kind of strange to assume that someone will recognize an in-joke.
...please stop taking my posts so seriously. Not sure why you feel the need to pick out specific words on my posts and completely ignore the actual content...
If I weren't taking your posts "so seriously", which isn't even an accurate phrasing of what I am doing which is to not assume your state of mind (i.e. I only know you aren't being serious if you make some clear indication of not being serious, such as actually saying so, or being so over the top in your statements that they couldn't possibly be meant seriously), you'd very likely be insulted. At least, that's my experience of what happens when someone's statements get automatically written off as not being worth taking seriously.
As for picking out specific words; I trim quotes to save things from becoming cluttered with an ever-growing wall of grey boxes, and to highlight what portion of a post I have an actual response to. If some part of your post isn't quoted, or isn't responded to, it isn't because I am ignoring that part of the post. It is left out because I don't have a response to that part of the post that isn't just repeating or reiterating something I've already recently said in the thread, and I'm not intentionally helping the conversation at hand start reading like "Yeah huh," and "Nuh uh," back-and-forth over and over again.
This whole thing is going to backfire on WoTC. They wanted this to be the ultimate tool for D&D players, yet many, perhaps even thousands of players won't use this tool. I know I won't because I sure the heck am not going to spend another $300+ to be able to unlock content I ALREADY LEGALLY own.
Here is the flaws I think most of you miss the point of.
I can already buy D&D products for cheap online. D&D beyond is NOT the cheapest source. I legally got my copy of my PHB for $25, saving $5 on a temporary copy of something does not appeal to me. I know it does not appeal to many others as well. I already have a copy that I can use till I die, that I can scan and put onto a flash drive and then carry around on a chain on my neck so I never lose it. This money down the drain here, nothing more.
I will not reimburse myself by selling my old books. First off this is such a flawed logic "D&D beyond is so great you should get it. Oh but you can sell your old books to get the money back." If D&D Beyond is so great, why would anyone want to buy my books to begin with? That's not to mention the fact that I already said I got my PHB for $25 online NEW. So how much money do you honestly think I am going to get for my old ratty PHB? $5? That still doesn't get me back the money I lost.
In the end, I know 100% that there are people who are not going to use D&D beyond, because they already own all the books and in order to unlock everything they have to buy them again is going to turn them off. WoTC isn't going to see the money they are wishing to see. I understand they don't want their content to be 100% free, but there is already a subscription option they could have hidden this content behind. To charge a subscription to access certain features, then force you to buy the books all over again to even be able to properly use the app? It's a silly marketing dissension, it's going to turn players away, and it's not going to be the huge success WoTC wished it to be, because they had to get greedy.
P.S. Also I already have access to a better tool. Roll20 lets me have online access to such a compendium for FREE, and I can always enter content into a character sheet, or make monster stat blocks on there, and so on, and so on. FOR FREE. So, what again does this great tool h ere offer me that has to hide everything behind a steep price tag for products I once more, legally own already?
This whole thing is going to backfire on WoTC. They wanted this to be the ultimate tool for D&D players, yet many, perhaps even thousands of players won't use this tool.
It will not backfire on WotC. WotC does not own D&D Beyond, Curse does. D&D Beyond exists because the team at Curse saw an opportunity to offer a new digital toolset and negotiated a license with WotC. WotC did not ask Curse to make it, and it is NOT the "official" WotC digital tool set, but they do endorse it.
Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds also have digital versions of all the core handbooks, and if you want to use them on their services, you also must pay. So don't single out Curse for criticism unless you are prepared to level that criticism against the others as well.
If you are happy to scan your physical copy and carry it around on a USB key, go for it. Don't complain here that they don't do the work for you for free. Also, if you do scan it for personal use, remember that while personal use might constitute "fair use" (IANAL) if you share that scanned copy with anyone else, it would be copyright infringement.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
This whole thing is going to backfire on WoTC. They wanted this to be the ultimate tool for D&D players, yet many, perhaps even thousands of players won't use this tool. I know I won't because I sure the heck am not going to spend another $300+ to be able to unlock content I ALREADY LEGALLY own.
Here is the flaws I think most of you miss the point of.
I can already buy D&D products for cheap online. D&D beyond is NOT the cheapest source. I legally got my copy of my PHB for $25, saving $5 on a temporary copy of something does not appeal to me. I know it does not appeal to many others as well. I already have a copy that I can use till I die, that I can scan and put onto a flash drive and then carry around on a chain on my neck so I never lose it. This money down the drain here, nothing more.
I will not reimburse myself by selling my old books. First off this is such a flawed logic "D&D beyond is so great you should get it. Oh but you can sell your old books to get the money back." If D&D Beyond is so great, why would anyone want to buy my books to begin with? That's not to mention the fact that I already said I got my PHB for $25 online NEW. So how much money do you honestly think I am going to get for my old ratty PHB? $5? That still doesn't get me back the money I lost.
In the end, I know 100% that there are people who are not going to use D&D beyond, because they already own all the books and in order to unlock everything they have to buy them again is going to turn them off. WoTC isn't going to see the money they are wishing to see. I understand they don't want their content to be 100% free, but there is already a subscription option they could have hidden this content behind. To charge a subscription to access certain features, then force you to buy the books all over again to even be able to properly use the app? It's a silly marketing dissension, it's going to turn players away, and it's not going to be the huge success WoTC wished it to be, because they had to get greedy.
You (as many other, I am afraid) seem under the impression WotC is pushing for DDB to become the "new official way to play D&D". I personally think (as an avid user of DDB) this is quite far from the truth.
DDB is a mean for WotC to provide a digital service to those to whom it may interest and that see it useful and worth the price. No one is forcing anyone to use DDB, and certainly WotC is not pushing it under your nose, as I do not see big splashpages in the main WotC/D&D webpage pointing to DDB.
This is a service, you can use it, or not, you can see value in what it offers, or not. Repeating this for the nth time, if you feel you like the tools but feel having to buy the content to use it is not worth it, as soon as the subclass homebrew will be live you will be able to input and recreate EVERYTHING present in the physical books for yours and your group's use here in DDP, not spending a single penny.
I really try to understand these claims, but it always seems to me the ones not getting the point are not those who argue against this self-entitlement of being owned access to the same material here for free if you have the manuals in physical form, but the other way around, completely ignoring everything that DDB already offers for free and will keep on offering for free.
Edit: Also, your last paragraph is quite ill-informed. There is no feature behind the subscription, the only thing they do is allowing infinite characters (a stable group player would not need more than 6, imho), and sharing of the content bought in the marketplace. If you do not buy content in the marketplace, you do not need the Master sub. Also, the app is in alpha, and yes, it currently only grants the option to consult the marketplace material offline, but this is ALPHA, and they already said all other functions (character creator; campaign manager, items etc.) will be available in the app once it officially launches.
...yet many, perhaps even thousands of players won't use this tool.
That's true. It is also true that thousands of players will.
What Curse aims for is not that literally everyone of the millions of people that play D&D will buy into D&D Beyond, because that goal is unreasonable and nigh-impossible for various reasons including but not limited to some people just plain refuse to incorporate any technology more advanced than electric lighting and mechanical pencils in their D&D play experience. They aim for a large enough portion of those millions of players finding value in D&D Beyond for them to profit and prosper from making D&D Beyond.
And given the 550,089 members (at the time of this posting) and how few of them are posting complaints about pricing, I think they are very far from "backfire" territory.
First off, there are numerous ways to prove that someone purchased the book, the most commonly used method is to send in the UPC code from the item in question. This isn't ideal in the case of books, as it would damage the cover, but it would prevent anyone from claiming more than one book. There is also the alternative of providing local sellers with access to codes for a period of time which would give the owner a discount on the site equal to the cost of the compendium copy; the local seller would then somehow mark the book in a uniform method which would prevent it from being able to be claimed additional times. Either way involves some kind of indelible mark being made upon the book.
Second, it doesn't matter if the person retains the book after they claimed it or not; no one else would be able to claim the digital copy of the book again. So since the only thing that they are getting by showing the book is a Compendium copy, why would they bother buying a physical copy of the book which will in all likelihood cost more than the compendium copy?
Third, using a receipt is asking for multiple claims of the same item, because all they will be sending is a copy; due to the likelihood that multiple items were purchased on the same receipt. Thus as I mentioned above, the UPC or a system involving bringing the books to your authorized FLGS and they would mark its use and give you a code to claim your $19.99 coupon.
I think this is worth highlighting to resolve the issue that "Wotc has no way of proving your purchase". You can insert "good way" and make it your opinion, but the fact is they can and they don't.
Weighing on the backfire issue, I think it already has backfired on WotC. It may be a small backfire if you think forum participation is indicative of real life, but still there. But I do not think forum participation is a good metric. In the companies I work for we resolve these issues with AB tests. We put forth a minimal amount of effort to implement a prototype solution, expose it to a small cohort of users, let that run for several weeks, and we see how it moves the needles aka revenue, conversions, etc. Then we compare that with the main set of users without the prototype solution. Without that kind of testing infrastructure we're doomed to arguing opinions and perspectives for forever.
The problem is that Curse and WotC are trying to reinvent the wheel here by forcing the purchase of the service to be tied to the purchase of the content. Nothing they are doing is new, that is why many are not all that happy about how they are doing it.
I don't think so. it is the same wheel that others have used before and seemed to work. I don't use Roll20 or FG. Can you use those and include homebrew and buy ans use books without being subscribed with their service? You do not here, you can but them all and use all the tools except content sharing without a subscription.
Fun Fact: Did you know that books on FG and Roll20 were also $50 before DDB came along? You do not get credit if you have the physical on either site either.
The pricing scheme is what I was referring to them trying to reinvent the wheel. There have been methods to officially convert physical to digital, with numerous other games that have made the transition from physical to digital. The tried and true method has generally been, to offer a very nominal fee ($10 or less per item, usually much less) to grant the owner of the physical copy a digital one.
The flaw here is that it is not WOTC doing the conversion. it is a 3rd party. This part you are barking up the wrong tree. Also, those conversions are usually to a regular old PDF. WOTC has already said no to them, this argument is kinda invalid. However, had it been WOTC that created a PDF, then i would have to agree. instead what we have is a 3rd party website that does way more than a simple PDF. Value has been added.
I don't use any of the services. Roll20 and FG have been simply licensed to sell digital content. Before the existence of DDB, WotC, having not established internal digital values for the books, most likely gave them both deals similar to what they gave to stores which sold their physical books. After the coming of DDB, WotC had established at least a baseline value to allow for the other providers to renegotiate prices and if they chose lower the prices.
Fun Fact: Neither Roll20 nor FG are now working or have ever (to my knowledge) worked in collaboration with WotC to make their services. They have simply had their service and sold the books and such on their. Curse however is working in collaboration with WotC. Without WotC collaboration and support, I am fairly sure that this site would go poof.
And that is exactly what DDB is, simply licensed to sell digital content. It is the same thing. All three systems sell books that integrate to their tool only. You can't take it offline and use it at the other two either. Yes, DDB came along and said, "hey, we want to do this." There was already a baseline before DDB came along, DDB just decided to help us out and ask them to lower it, which they did. So in fact, you are getting a better deal than before already.
Yes, if they decided to pull licensing away the site would probably go poof, same as any other site that wasn't licensed. Of course you could homebrew everything you wanted.
If they instead offered something like the following people would be a lot more positive about this whole thing:
1. Provide a way for those who buy or already have bought the physical copy of the books a way to reclaim access to that content only. They would only be able to read and search the content of the books they own, unless they do step two.
As has been stated over..and over...and over. There is no way for anyone to prove that they purchased the book and still retain it. How is it fair if you bought it at the FLGS and no longer have the receipt? Sorry, too bad for you? How is that fair? What is fair, everyone pays the same price no matter what. I happen to own both physical and digital. I paid for both. Will you give me a refund on said books?
First off, there are numerous ways to prove that someone purchased the book, the most commonly used method is to send in the UPC code from the item in question. This isn't ideal in the case of books, as it would damage the cover, but it would prevent anyone from claiming more than one book. There is also the alternative of providing local sellers with access to codes for a period of time which would give the owner a discount on the site equal to the cost of the compendium copy; the local seller would then somehow mark the book in a uniform method which would prevent it from being able to be claimed additional times. Either way involves some kind of indelible mark being made upon the book.
Second, it doesn't matter if the person retains the book after they claimed it or not; no one else would be able to claim the digital copy of the book again. So since the only thing that they are getting by showing the book is a Compendium copy, why would they bother buying a physical copy of the book which will in all likelihood cost more than the compendium copy?
Third, using a receipt is asking for multiple claims of the same item, because all they will be sending is a copy; due to the likelihood that multiple items were purchased on the same receipt. Thus as I mentioned above, the UPC or a system involving bringing the books to your authorized FLGS and they would mark its use and give you a code to claim your $19.99 coupon.
Ok, that has merit, however, now there has to be a tracking and coupon system database in place to handle all of that. Who fronts the costs? it would have to be WOTC, that would drive up costs and in the end you would end up paying more for the physical book (not the digital since you would end up paying the $19.99 because you don't have a coupon). You wouldn't be able to return the books once purchased either. All books would have to be factory sealed as well. No peekabo to see if you would like it. They will not allow the FLGS just to hand the coupons out. Too much room for abuse there.
2. Separate the purchase of the content from the service, you can offer to bundle them when people buy the digital only content, but price them out separately, and offer a service only price option for those who already own the content. $5-10 per book depending on if it is core or not would be reasonable I think.
Well, WOTC happens to disagree and wants a licensing cost for every book. See point 1. However, there is a compendium only that you only get the book for $19.99 on DDB. So they have shown the separation. They offer the price to get it with the tools first as that is what most people want anyways.
WotC has already gotten their licensing cost for the books which people have purchased, WotC cannot prevent the digitalization if said person can provide proof that they own said book. This has been covered by innumerable court cases over the past two decades. As long as that person does not provide the digitized version to others enmasse, they are allowed to have such a version of it. If WotC is actually going at this with the intention of forcing people to buy the same content twice, then they really do not deserve my business (or anyone else's IMO).
I had forgotten that they had the Compendium versions, by the looks of it the $5-$10 dollar range I estimated earlier was about right. The joke of an a la cart method that this site has is just insulting. Take Xanathar's Guide to Everything, all-in-one price is $29.99, the compendium is $19.99, subclasses are $9.99, feats are $3.99, magic items are $6.99, and spells are $4.99; so since there is no way to just buy the usage of all on DDB without the compendium that $10 dollar difference ballons into $25.96. That is insane; either the compendium price needs to drop or the various sets need to drop. A way to be able to use all without the compendium for at most $15 would be at least tolerable, 50% higher for buying separate rather than almost 260% more.
Yes, they got licensing when you bought the physical. this is a different format and they have chosen to require it for all digital books no matter where you get them. How would you go about requiring proof of purchase? Since they never planned for a digital version, there was never a thought in mind to do this. so instead of ticking off more customers (those that have already purchased physical ones let alone those that have purchased both) I doubt they are going to change anything. And piecemeal has always been more expensive than buying in bulk. thus, if you want just a little part, it will cost more. You get to a point where it just makes sense to buy the whole darn thing. At least they don't stick you and say that your previous purchase was invalid. They remove what you already paid towards the total cost so that when you do buy, you are not double purchasing those parts.
3. Expand the benefits of subscribing. Not sure how, but as it is there is really only a need for one person per group to even want to subscribe. Make it so that people will want to sub even though they don't need to do so.
Well, they made this a bonus. really they didn't have to have content sharing, but this is modeled after the "you show up at the table with all the books to share with all your friends there" idea. Plus as a group, if you all go in together, it makes it cheaper. Only the master tier needs to turn on content sharing, then no matter who owns what, it is all shared to the group. Otherwise, the benefit of subscribing is to get more database space to hold unlimited characters. this is true for either level you get in at.
I understand that and am not wanting it expanded to get more from it (neither I nor anyone I know has a subscription). There is little to no reason for most people to subscribe more than a single account per 12 to 36 people. I mean ignore the ads, and you can print out the character sheet then delete the existing character if you want to make another. I'm also not asking for game content, but just something to make it more enticing to do something like the Hero tier when someone else is already Master tier in the group.
any idea's? I have none. Other then subscription exclusive content. then that would just make other mad. Or they would have to make their tools subscription only and that would make sales drop.
Sorry, i started this this morning and had to leave for work. just got back to it.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
First off, there are numerous ways to prove that someone purchased the book, the most commonly used method is to send in the UPC code from the item in question. This isn't ideal in the case of books, as it would damage the cover, but it would prevent anyone from claiming more than one book. There is also the alternative of providing local sellers with access to codes for a period of time which would give the owner a discount on the site equal to the cost of the compendium copy; the local seller would then somehow mark the book in a uniform method which would prevent it from being able to be claimed additional times. Either way involves some kind of indelible mark being made upon the book.
Second, it doesn't matter if the person retains the book after they claimed it or not; no one else would be able to claim the digital copy of the book again. So since the only thing that they are getting by showing the book is a Compendium copy, why would they bother buying a physical copy of the book which will in all likelihood cost more than the compendium copy?
Third, using a receipt is asking for multiple claims of the same item, because all they will be sending is a copy; due to the likelihood that multiple items were purchased on the same receipt. Thus as I mentioned above, the UPC or a system involving bringing the books to your authorized FLGS and they would mark its use and give you a code to claim your $19.99 coupon.
I think this is worth highlighting to resolve the issue that "Wotc has no way of proving your purchase". You can insert "good way" and make it your opinion, but the fact is they can and they don't.
Weighing on the backfire issue, I think it already has backfired on WotC. It may be a small backfire if you think forum participation is indicative of real life, but still there. But I do not think forum participation is a good metric. In the companies I work for we resolve these issues with AB tests. We put forth a minimal amount of effort to implement a prototype solution, expose it to a small cohort of users, let that run for several weeks, and we see how it moves the needles aka revenue, conversions, etc. Then we compare that with the main set of users without the prototype solution. Without that kind of testing infrastructure we're doomed to arguing opinions and perspectives for forever.
Ok, lets just say for a moment they do figure out a way to prove that you purchased the book. Are you going to cut up your $40 book just to get a $20 digital version? also, there will be no replacements as you have altered the book. Oh, and yeah, they have to put that UPC on there so they can't exactly send you a new one without it. The reality part is that of the $19.99 price tag, I am sure not all of it goes to WOTC for licensing fee's. Lets just say it is $10 to be generous. So are you going to now cut up that $40 book to get a $9.99 digital version?
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
First off, there are numerous ways to prove that someone purchased the book, the most commonly used method is to send in the UPC code from the item in question. This isn't ideal in the case of books, as it would damage the cover, but it would prevent anyone from claiming more than one book. There is also the alternative of providing local sellers with access to codes for a period of time which would give the owner a discount on the site equal to the cost of the compendium copy; the local seller would then somehow mark the book in a uniform method which would prevent it from being able to be claimed additional times. Either way involves some kind of indelible mark being made upon the book.
Second, it doesn't matter if the person retains the book after they claimed it or not; no one else would be able to claim the digital copy of the book again. So since the only thing that they are getting by showing the book is a Compendium copy, why would they bother buying a physical copy of the book which will in all likelihood cost more than the compendium copy?
Third, using a receipt is asking for multiple claims of the same item, because all they will be sending is a copy; due to the likelihood that multiple items were purchased on the same receipt. Thus as I mentioned above, the UPC or a system involving bringing the books to your authorized FLGS and they would mark its use and give you a code to claim your $19.99 coupon.
I think this is worth highlighting to resolve the issue that "Wotc has no way of proving your purchase". You can insert "good way" and make it your opinion, but the fact is they can and they don't.
Weighing on the backfire issue, I think it already has backfired on WotC. It may be a small backfire if you think forum participation is indicative of real life, but still there. But I do not think forum participation is a good metric. In the companies I work for we resolve these issues with AB tests. We put forth a minimal amount of effort to implement a prototype solution, expose it to a small cohort of users, let that run for several weeks, and we see how it moves the needles aka revenue, conversions, etc. Then we compare that with the main set of users without the prototype solution. Without that kind of testing infrastructure we're doomed to arguing opinions and perspectives for forever.
Ok, lets just say for a moment they do figure out a way to prove that you purchased the book. Are you going to cut up your $40 book just to get a $20 digital version? also, there will be no replacements as you have altered the book. Oh, and yeah, they have to put that UPC on there so they can't exactly send you a new one without it. The reality part is that of the $19.99 price tag, I am sure not all of it goes to WOTC for licensing fee's. Lets just say it is $10 to be generous. So are you going to now cut up that $40 book to get a $9.99 digital version?
Yep.
You just did what I predicted. You're claiming it's not a "good way" which is your opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that they can but they don't. You can also say (as many have) that they shouldn't and wouldn't, but that still doesn't change the fact that they can but don't.
For me it comes down to asking "How much content do you want?" without asking "How much content do you already have?". It's not about the dollar amount, it's about the emotions of fear, mistrust, betrayal, disappointment, lack of confidence, etc. Although, $10 per proof of purchase given the fact that there are what, 5 main rules books now? I'd take an exacto knife to my books for that for sure. I think it'd be more than $10 off though.
You just did what I predicted. You're claiming it's not a "good way" which is your opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that they can but they don't.
I think focusing exclusively on that it is possible, while refusing to talk about other factors like whether or it is practical or beneficial to the company that would have to put in the effort to enact said possibility, is an unhelpful thing to do.
Hope, after all, can be cruelty if the thing hoped for - no matter how possible it might be - is probably never going to be practical, and thus will probably never happen.
I mean, it's possible my favorite place to buy a sandwich down in New Orleans pack up their business and move to the city I currently live in, and I'd definitely be happy to be able to eat my favorite sandwiches again... but the likelihood of that actually happening is statistically represented by a zero, and it is important for my emotional well-being as a customer to be aware of that.
Ok, lets just say for a moment they do figure out a way to prove that you purchased the book. Are you going to cut up your $40 book just to get a $20 digital version? also, there will be no replacements as you have altered the book. Oh, and yeah, they have to put that UPC on there so they can't exactly send you a new one without it. The reality part is that of the $19.99 price tag, I am sure not all of it goes to WOTC for licensing fee's. Lets just say it is $10 to be generous. So are you going to now cut up that $40 book to get a $9.99 digital version?
Yep.
You just did what I predicted. You're claiming it's not a "good way" which is your opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that they can but they don't. You can also say (as many have) that they shouldn't and wouldn't, but that still doesn't change the fact that they can but don't.
I never said it's "not a good way". Please show me where i claimed that. You seem to want to put words in peoples mouths to fit your agenda. I simply asked your opinion if you would cut up your $40 physical book to get a digital book for $9.99. I would not. It's not worth it to me, and yes, that is my opinion. Your opinion is that yes, it would be worth it. To do this plan, the cost of the physical book would most likely go up since they would have to create a tracking system to accomplish it. I do not see that as a good trade off, my opinion. The increase would probably be more than the amount you would save. Sure they could do it, but then a lot of other companies could do things that they don't in the name of retaining customers. Such as car manufacturers could do recalls and actually fix safety and mechanical issues with the vehicles they make that cost consumers thousands of dollars, but they don't. (another system where you do not buy directly from the manufacturer, but from a retailer).
For me it comes down to asking "How much content do you want?" without asking "How much content do you already have?". It's not about the dollar amount, it's about the emotions of fear, mistrust, betrayal, disappointment, lack of confidence, etc. Although, $10 per proof of purchase given the fact that there are what, 5 main rules books now? I'd take an exacto knife to my books for that for sure. I think it'd be more than $10 off though.
You do not OWN the content of the book. You are not free to do whatever pleases you with it. You cannot make copies and hand them out for free. At best, you could rip it part and create your own digital version by scanning it in. So it is never about the content you own as you don't own any. As for how much content you want, the answer will always be "all of it". WOTC has decided that to get it, you have to pay for it. But for you it is not even the cost of content, it is more about your emotions. Not sure how to figure that one out. That is why people over price stuff saying it has sentimental value. that value is only to that one person. I guess you would have to be honest with yourself and ask who and/or what is causing the fear? Who do i mistrust? who do i feel betrayed by? what is the disappointment i am feeling, and who and/or what is causing the lack of confidence? If those answers are WOTC, then i would invite you to have these discussions with them, not at DDB who is a retailer of the product. Since i do not know you i will not speak for you, but in my opinion, i do not see any reasons or cause of those emotions from DDB.
Those proof of purchase's would only be good towards the digital book that it came off, so roughly 1/2 off each book (not sure why you are only saying core books though unless that is all you own or expect to get a refund on) in which if given the opportunity I think most people would go for if it was a sale, but having to cut their book up and mailing it in to get a coupon code (presumably emailed to you). Not sure on that one. .
You would only get the licensing fee back, you still have to pay for the rest, so i am thinking a tenner at best is all you would get. Curse still needs to get paid for creating the digital content after all. I know they won't release it, but it would be nice to know the break down. I am sure it would end arguments one way or another.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
This is relentless and nit picky. Fine, "How much content do you want to buy?" and "How much content have you already bought?". The fact that when you buy a product you don't own the content is beside the point. All that serves is to say that WotC doesn't legally have to keep track of previously purchased content and honor it, it doesn't mean that they cannot do it.
I didn't put words in your mouth, I summarized what I got out of what you said. This is putting words in your mouth. You were saying it's not a good way because "I have to cut a small square off the top of the hard part of my book for a measly $10 per book? Not worth it!" Discredit it all you want, it's still true.
Again, I haven't blamed DDB for any of this. IMO they're doing great given who they have to work with. I was given links to take my voice elsewhere and admittedly have not done that yet.
And the "don't have hope" argument is at least moving on to new ground and not going back to the same old issues, thanks for that. I really do think they'll get there, I just don't think it will be any time soon.
DDB is a big step in the right direction, it's just too bad they didn't do it sooner. Of course WotC is happy that niche, committed players are willing to pay multiple times for the same content from different distributors, but I think even WotC would acknowledge that they'd prefer to provide a better buying experience to more users. Everyone wants this. It's crazy it's so debatable. It's like that silly DirectTV commercial "But some people still like cable just like some people like banging their head on a low ceiling, or paying for the same content with the same trademark multiple times in different forms from competing distributors."
I don't think the issue has ever been that WotC CAN'T do anything.
I think it's more that they have no incentive to do it.
We know that Curse has a bottom line that they have to cover. I think most people who've actually looked into the issue agree that that's reasonable. The general assessment seems to be that WotC could do more to please these customers. The problem is that I don't know how closely WotC is watching these boards. That and there's no way to measure how much business is actually being lost by this discrepancy. All that can be measured is how well Curse is doing and how well the D&D side of WotC is doing. If they are taking a hit, they probably won't announce the specifics of that, and we'll just see changes as soon as they can roll them out. If they are doing well (as all indications seem to point to), then they have no reason to change anything.
We would all like more stuff for less money, but the circle that keeps going around here is that there's no apparent evidence why DDB actually needs to cost less money at this point other than 0.0002%* of message board users expressing dissatisfaction.
Well said. I would just disagree slightly on the point that there is no way to measure. It could be measured with AB test infrastructure (as I explained before). But yeah, no easy way to measure. Look now I'm being nit picky :D
This is relentless and nit picky. Fine, "How much content do you want to buy?" and "How much content have you already bought?". The fact that when you buy a product you don't own the content is beside the point. All that serves is to say that WotC doesn't legally have to keep track of previously purchased content and honor it, it doesn't mean that they cannot do it.
I didn't put words in your mouth, I summarized what I got out of what you said. This is putting words in your mouth. You were saying it's not a good way because "I have to cut a small square off the top of the hard part of my book for a measly $10 per book? Not worth it!" Discredit it all you want, it's still true.
Again, I haven't blamed DDB for any of this. IMO they're doing great given who they have to work with. I was given links to take my voice elsewhere and admittedly have not done that yet.
And the "don't have hope" argument is at least moving on to new ground and not going back to the same old issues, thanks for that. I really do think they'll get there, I just don't think it will be any time soon.
DDB is a big step in the right direction, it's just too bad they didn't do it sooner. Of course WotC is happy that niche, committed players are willing to pay multiple times for the same content from different distributors, but I think even WotC would acknowledge that they'd prefer to provide a better buying experience to more users. Everyone wants this. It's crazy it's so debatable. It's like that silly DirectTV commercial "But some people still like cable just like some people like banging their head on a low ceiling, or paying for the same content with the same trademark multiple times in different forms from competing distributors."
Ok, let me put it another way. the process you are proposing is not a good fit for me (just like you have stated the current pricing scheme at DDB is not a fit for you), thus i would not take advantage of it (just like you said you will not participate in DDB). I would not find it enough of value to use it. I am not saying that the process would not be possible. WOTC has had 21 years to become a retailer instead of just a publisher, they have not done it. As others have stated, WOTC has no incentive now to do this.
I honestly believe if they wanted to be in that part of the market for the customers, they would have done it with Roll20 and FG in the previous ~3 years when it was just those two. Instead, they were happily raking in the money in digital sales. Can't say if there similar comments or if similar situations, but it was purchased and WOTC didn't see a need to change it back then either.
I am sure DDB would have loved to been out there sooner. As close to launch as possible (and if there is a 6th ed, i am sure they will be right there at launch time).
Fun fact: WOTC had owned D&D for only 2 years before it in turn was purchased by Hasbro. They had never publish a new version during that time. Shortly after being purchased by Hasbro, 3rd Edition was released.
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I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
Of course WotC is happy that niche, committed players are willing to pay multiple times for the same content from different distributors, but I think even WotC would acknowledge that they'd prefer to provide a better buying experience to more users. Everyone wants this. It's crazy it's so debatable. It's like that silly DirectTV commercial "But some people still like cable just like some people like banging their head on a low ceiling, or paying for the same content with the same trademark multiple times in different forms from competing distributors."
I don't think the issue has ever been that WotC CAN'T do anything.
I think it's more that they have no incentive to do it.
We would all like more stuff for less money, but the circle that keeps going around here is that there's no apparent evidence why DDB actually needs to cost less money at this point other than 0.0002%* of message board users expressing dissatisfaction.
* according to a site admin
Here's another thing these comments highlight. If you already own the books, WOTC, practically, lose nothing by you not purchasing another license and they've got nothing to gain by giving them away for free. They already have your money. (DDB doesn't, but there's probably not much they can do about that.) WOTC has a lot more to gain under the current system where a lot of old users are happy to purchase the content again. And they'll get new user's money either way (I presume it makes little financial difference to them whether you buy hardcopy or digital).
While a few old users will complain, what are they going to do? Ditch D&D entirely for another system? They can threaten that but WOTC won't believe it until sales decline. But that's expected to happen anyway, and when it does they'll be planning the next edition which will in all likelihood have closer digital integration and this won't be an issue.
So while wanting a free licence for previously purchased content makes perfect sense from a user perspective, I just don't see why WOTC would do it, especially since all the metrics we know about are ticking up.
I can totally get behind the opinion that it might not be worth it for WotC to do it, but I do think they would want to do it. Like I said, any company would prefer to provide a better buying experience to more users.
I guess it depends on how willing they are to come out with a 6th edition or how long they want to ride out 5th. I've never played anything besides 5th, but it seems like the design is pretty solid and could last a really really long time. I'd be very disappointed if lack of better organized licensing deals in 5th forced an early design iteration. Where I work we have to make decisions where we could choose between milking the users for as much money as possible in the short term which shortens the lifespan and health of the product vs. long term user acquisition and retention to keep the party alive, thriving and growing so that the lifetime of the product is much much longer. Usually people who have learned their lesson prefer the latter. Not only does it increase overall profits, but it increases the value of your whole company and puts you in a position to grow. This idea that "they got your money, what good are you to them?" doesn't fly in my mind.
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True, it sets a value on what they manufacturer says it should be, a nice baseline. I was more talking about actual purchase prices of the books compared to the actual prices on here. The market has dictated value of the product after release so I go by that and not the MSRP when comparing out of pocket expense.
I sure don't. Kind of strange to assume that someone will recognize an in-joke.
If I weren't taking your posts "so seriously", which isn't even an accurate phrasing of what I am doing which is to not assume your state of mind (i.e. I only know you aren't being serious if you make some clear indication of not being serious, such as actually saying so, or being so over the top in your statements that they couldn't possibly be meant seriously), you'd very likely be insulted. At least, that's my experience of what happens when someone's statements get automatically written off as not being worth taking seriously.As for picking out specific words; I trim quotes to save things from becoming cluttered with an ever-growing wall of grey boxes, and to highlight what portion of a post I have an actual response to. If some part of your post isn't quoted, or isn't responded to, it isn't because I am ignoring that part of the post. It is left out because I don't have a response to that part of the post that isn't just repeating or reiterating something I've already recently said in the thread, and I'm not intentionally helping the conversation at hand start reading like "Yeah huh," and "Nuh uh," back-and-forth over and over again.
This whole thing is going to backfire on WoTC. They wanted this to be the ultimate tool for D&D players, yet many, perhaps even thousands of players won't use this tool. I know I won't because I sure the heck am not going to spend another $300+ to be able to unlock content I ALREADY LEGALLY own.
Here is the flaws I think most of you miss the point of.
I can already buy D&D products for cheap online. D&D beyond is NOT the cheapest source. I legally got my copy of my PHB for $25, saving $5 on a temporary copy of something does not appeal to me. I know it does not appeal to many others as well. I already have a copy that I can use till I die, that I can scan and put onto a flash drive and then carry around on a chain on my neck so I never lose it. This money down the drain here, nothing more.
I will not reimburse myself by selling my old books. First off this is such a flawed logic "D&D beyond is so great you should get it. Oh but you can sell your old books to get the money back." If D&D Beyond is so great, why would anyone want to buy my books to begin with? That's not to mention the fact that I already said I got my PHB for $25 online NEW. So how much money do you honestly think I am going to get for my old ratty PHB? $5? That still doesn't get me back the money I lost.
In the end, I know 100% that there are people who are not going to use D&D beyond, because they already own all the books and in order to unlock everything they have to buy them again is going to turn them off. WoTC isn't going to see the money they are wishing to see. I understand they don't want their content to be 100% free, but there is already a subscription option they could have hidden this content behind. To charge a subscription to access certain features, then force you to buy the books all over again to even be able to properly use the app? It's a silly marketing dissension, it's going to turn players away, and it's not going to be the huge success WoTC wished it to be, because they had to get greedy.
P.S. Also I already have access to a better tool. Roll20 lets me have online access to such a compendium for FREE, and I can always enter content into a character sheet, or make monster stat blocks on there, and so on, and so on. FOR FREE. So, what again does this great tool h ere offer me that has to hide everything behind a steep price tag for products I once more, legally own already?
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D&D Beyond FoundersPun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I personally think (as an avid user of DDB) this is quite far from the truth.
No one is forcing anyone to use DDB, and certainly WotC is not pushing it under your nose, as I do not see big splashpages in the main WotC/D&D webpage pointing to DDB.
Also, the app is in alpha, and yes, it currently only grants the option to consult the marketplace material offline, but this is ALPHA, and they already said all other functions (character creator; campaign manager, items etc.) will be available in the app once it officially launches.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
That's true. It is also true that thousands of players will.
What Curse aims for is not that literally everyone of the millions of people that play D&D will buy into D&D Beyond, because that goal is unreasonable and nigh-impossible for various reasons including but not limited to some people just plain refuse to incorporate any technology more advanced than electric lighting and mechanical pencils in their D&D play experience. They aim for a large enough portion of those millions of players finding value in D&D Beyond for them to profit and prosper from making D&D Beyond.
And given the 550,089 members (at the time of this posting) and how few of them are posting complaints about pricing, I think they are very far from "backfire" territory.
Ok, that has merit, however, now there has to be a tracking and coupon system database in place to handle all of that. Who fronts the costs? it would have to be WOTC, that would drive up costs and in the end you would end up paying more for the physical book (not the digital since you would end up paying the $19.99 because you don't have a coupon). You wouldn't be able to return the books once purchased either. All books would have to be factory sealed as well. No peekabo to see if you would like it. They will not allow the FLGS just to hand the coupons out. Too much room for abuse there.
And piecemeal has always been more expensive than buying in bulk. thus, if you want just a little part, it will cost more. You get to a point where it just makes sense to buy the whole darn thing. At least they don't stick you and say that your previous purchase was invalid. They remove what you already paid towards the total cost so that when you do buy, you are not double purchasing those parts.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I think focusing exclusively on that it is possible, while refusing to talk about other factors like whether or it is practical or beneficial to the company that would have to put in the effort to enact said possibility, is an unhelpful thing to do.
Hope, after all, can be cruelty if the thing hoped for - no matter how possible it might be - is probably never going to be practical, and thus will probably never happen.
I mean, it's possible my favorite place to buy a sandwich down in New Orleans pack up their business and move to the city I currently live in, and I'd definitely be happy to be able to eat my favorite sandwiches again... but the likelihood of that actually happening is statistically represented by a zero, and it is important for my emotional well-being as a customer to be aware of that.
To do this plan, the cost of the physical book would most likely go up since they would have to create a tracking system to accomplish it. I do not see that as a good trade off, my opinion. The increase would probably be more than the amount you would save. Sure they could do it, but then a lot of other companies could do things that they don't in the name of retaining customers. Such as car manufacturers could do recalls and actually fix safety and mechanical issues with the vehicles they make that cost consumers thousands of dollars, but they don't. (another system where you do not buy directly from the manufacturer, but from a retailer).
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
This is relentless and nit picky. Fine, "How much content do you want to buy?" and "How much content have you already bought?". The fact that when you buy a product you don't own the content is beside the point. All that serves is to say that WotC doesn't legally have to keep track of previously purchased content and honor it, it doesn't mean that they cannot do it.
I didn't put words in your mouth, I summarized what I got out of what you said. This is putting words in your mouth. You were saying it's not a good way because "I have to cut a small square off the top of the hard part of my book for a measly $10 per book? Not worth it!" Discredit it all you want, it's still true.
Again, I haven't blamed DDB for any of this. IMO they're doing great given who they have to work with. I was given links to take my voice elsewhere and admittedly have not done that yet.
And the "don't have hope" argument is at least moving on to new ground and not going back to the same old issues, thanks for that. I really do think they'll get there, I just don't think it will be any time soon.
DDB is a big step in the right direction, it's just too bad they didn't do it sooner. Of course WotC is happy that niche, committed players are willing to pay multiple times for the same content from different distributors, but I think even WotC would acknowledge that they'd prefer to provide a better buying experience to more users. Everyone wants this. It's crazy it's so debatable. It's like that silly DirectTV commercial "But some people still like cable just like some people like banging their head on a low ceiling, or paying for the same content with the same trademark multiple times in different forms from competing distributors."
I don't think the issue has ever been that WotC CAN'T do anything.
I think it's more that they have no incentive to do it.
We know that Curse has a bottom line that they have to cover. I think most people who've actually looked into the issue agree that that's reasonable. The general assessment seems to be that WotC could do more to please these customers. The problem is that I don't know how closely WotC is watching these boards. That and there's no way to measure how much business is actually being lost by this discrepancy. All that can be measured is how well Curse is doing and how well the D&D side of WotC is doing. If they are taking a hit, they probably won't announce the specifics of that, and we'll just see changes as soon as they can roll them out. If they are doing well (as all indications seem to point to), then they have no reason to change anything.
We would all like more stuff for less money, but the circle that keeps going around here is that there's no apparent evidence why DDB actually needs to cost less money at this point other than 0.0002%* of message board users expressing dissatisfaction.
* according to a site admin
Well said. I would just disagree slightly on the point that there is no way to measure. It could be measured with AB test infrastructure (as I explained before). But yeah, no easy way to measure. Look now I'm being nit picky :D
I just want to tell everyone "happy gaming" and actually mean it. Whatever your game is, just have fun with it, it is after all, just a game.
I can totally get behind the opinion that it might not be worth it for WotC to do it, but I do think they would want to do it. Like I said, any company would prefer to provide a better buying experience to more users.
I guess it depends on how willing they are to come out with a 6th edition or how long they want to ride out 5th. I've never played anything besides 5th, but it seems like the design is pretty solid and could last a really really long time. I'd be very disappointed if lack of better organized licensing deals in 5th forced an early design iteration. Where I work we have to make decisions where we could choose between milking the users for as much money as possible in the short term which shortens the lifespan and health of the product vs. long term user acquisition and retention to keep the party alive, thriving and growing so that the lifetime of the product is much much longer. Usually people who have learned their lesson prefer the latter. Not only does it increase overall profits, but it increases the value of your whole company and puts you in a position to grow. This idea that "they got your money, what good are you to them?" doesn't fly in my mind.