A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
Or rage boi gets their sword taken away?
I’d love to observe your all’s high level games. I’ve never seen one in which a 20th level martial is carrying only one weapon and that one being a sword..
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
Or rage boi gets their sword taken away?
I’d love to observe your all’s high level games. I’ve never seen one in which a 20th level martial is carrying only one weapon and that one being a sword..
Whereas spellcasters regularly are without options for foci? It's not likely that a martial is without a weapon, but it's equally unlikely that a spellcaster doesn't have access to material components.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
It seems that Level Up (the official title of the "system" the thread was/is about) seems to be using a type of skill challenge to expand on exploration coupled with variant rules for exhaustion and food. On the surface it seems like a good idea, but I don't know that I like the idea of rolling on random tables. I guess the DM can just pick things from the list or make their own, while the tables are good for new DMs or if you need an idea on the fly.
I think the WotC should also expand on the exploration pillar of the game a bit, but I don't know if this how I would want them to do it. If nothing else the Level Up system provides more than the DMG I guess.
Edit: I do like the Combat Maneuvers though. Anything to give Martial Characters a more diverse selection of actions to take each round.
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
Or rage boi gets their sword taken away?
I’d love to observe your all’s high level games. I’ve never seen one in which a 20th level martial is carrying only one weapon and that one being a sword..
Whereas spellcasters regularly are without options for foci? It's not likely that a martial is without a weapon, but it's equally unlikely that a spellcaster doesn't have access to material components.
The majority of spellcasters I've observed carry only one Arcane focus. The next most common is for a Cleric to carry two, but that is vanishingly rare. Beyond that, if they have any other focus, it is in a backpack and not easily accessible in combat.
By contrast, a martial type typically isn't as concerned with encumberance and will carry multiple weapons on their belt, on bandoliers, and on their back.
That's what I've observed in about four decades of gaming.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
Or rage boi gets their sword taken away?
I’d love to observe your all’s high level games. I’ve never seen one in which a 20th level martial is carrying only one weapon and that one being a sword..
Whereas spellcasters regularly are without options for foci? It's not likely that a martial is without a weapon, but it's equally unlikely that a spellcaster doesn't have access to material components.
The majority of spellcasters I've observed carry only one Arcane focus. The next most common is for a Cleric to carry two, but that is vanishingly rare. Beyond that, if they have any other focus, it is in a backpack and not easily accessible in combat.
By contrast, a martial type typically isn't as concerned with encumberance and will carry multiple weapons on their belt, on bandoliers, and on their back.
That's what I've observed in about four decades of gaming.
If I'm in a game where the DM strategy is to try to take my focus I would have redundant foci which are cheap and plentiful.
I could also just cast spells with V/S components of which there's many.
Or I could ask my artificer to make me a wand sheath
Or about 10 other ways to easily handle this situation.
If your DM just wants to shut you down they will do it regardless of how you plan because they can do that.... But it's going to be problematic if they do it in a way that has so many blatantly easy ways to counter
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
I have to agree. Reading through what they have released, it seems more like a middle ground between 3.5/Pathfinder and 5e. I am not sure if that is good or bad at this point. I would need to actually see the full rules and try it out to make my mind up one way or the other.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
I have to agree. Reading through what they have released, it seems more like a middle ground between 3.5/Pathfinder and 5e. I am not sure if that is good or bad at this point. I would need to actually see the full rules and try it out to make my mind up one way or the other.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
I have to agree. Reading through what they have released, it seems more like a middle ground between 3.5/Pathfinder and 5e. I am not sure if that is good or bad at this point. I would need to actually see the full rules and try it out to make my mind up one way or the other.
Or even PF2e
True. It does make me really curious as to what WotC has in store for us with their upcoming changes. A lot of people on these forums have been asking for more meaningful choice in character creation/leveling as well as more options in combat beyond "I attack with my sword". A greater focus on exploration is another one I see on these forums a lot too. I think it would be a bad idea to not address this in 5.5 (or what ever WotC decides to call it).
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
Or rage boi gets their sword taken away?
I’d love to observe your all’s high level games. I’ve never seen one in which a 20th level martial is carrying only one weapon and that one being a sword..
Whereas spellcasters regularly are without options for foci? It's not likely that a martial is without a weapon, but it's equally unlikely that a spellcaster doesn't have access to material components.
The majority of spellcasters I've observed carry only one Arcane focus. The next most common is for a Cleric to carry two, but that is vanishingly rare. Beyond that, if they have any other focus, it is in a backpack and not easily accessible in combat.
By contrast, a martial type typically isn't as concerned with encumberance and will carry multiple weapons on their belt, on bandoliers, and on their back.
That's what I've observed in about four decades of gaming.
Well, you haven't observed that in four decades because the entire focus concept hasn't been around that long, but the reason people don't carry a lot of foci is because the odds of it making any difference is vanishingly small. As for fighters carrying multiple weapons, the golf bag of weapons is mostly a 3.5 phenomenon due to varying damage resistance in 3.5e, most warriors in other editions carry around their main weapon, an offhand weapon if they use two weapon fighting, and a ranged weapon.
1: Split weapons since the dice rolled doesn't matter usually after 5th, just make all one handed weapons light (Maybe excepting the Bludgeoning type) And make all 2 H weapons Heavy, And yes give us more types and a few more interesting weapon traits would be nice as well.
2. Make the healing more interesting, The i touch you heal mechanic is just old and rather boring, and probably the reason you about need to bribe a PC to play a healer. Give us some healing spells that are AoE but maybe risk healing monsters so that the healer gets to engage their brain from time to time. Also more damage prevention would be great, as that often works better than restoring Health. Buffers and THP as well as absorbs and brief invuln or evade may be fun to play with at high levels.
3: Fix the Ranger and Monk. They lack any synergy between their abilities so they just feel like a grab bag of disjointed but cool abilities. These could use to be given some synergy similar to the fighter and rogue
4: Spells: So this may be a bit much, but 5E went all in the wrong way on these, In 3.x the problem with spells was really the unmakable save DC, and it came back in 5E but it is you need a 17+ to save. Make the Save DC static, and use the casting ability for bonus spells. better to have more spells but the save be makable than have a few spells but each can just end a combat outright. As a caveat, the rest spells are also completely broken, Hut and Mansion let parties long rest pretty much with impunity, making resource management irrelevant. These need to be modified to at least allow there to be a counter, especially for Mansion, which has no way to dispel or detect.
5: Monsters. They probably could use a boost to either AC or hit by about 1-3 but not to both. Monsters currently hit like a truck, but accuracy, or defense needs to be able to keep up.
6. Fix the sorcerer's spell list, This is just sad and wrong, The sorcerer needs some love since it got the raw end of the stick transitioning from 3 or 4 to 5 and that needs to be fixed.
7. Tone down the cleric. Any group that has more than one cleric quickly realizes that this class is one of the more unbalanced in the game. Now my suggestion is make the paladin a full caster, and just give them very short range melee oriented spells. then make the cleric the Priest, they are a clothie who is basically a healing mage with hybrid support and control spells all castable at range.
I would like WotC to look at the Combat Maneuver system that Level Up is using. I have always believed that Battle Master should be the baseline for the Fighter Class and while I don't know the details of Level Up's system, it does seem to be basically expanding the Battle Master's abilities into a full fledge system for all Martial characters to use. I am sure WotC's team could give us some thing similar, maybe tied directly to Weapon Type so that the weapon you use matters more. I would like weapon selection to be more than just choosing the highest dice size available to you.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
At best, any comparison to 3e would be to 3e as it approached it's death - 3e bloat.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
At best, any comparison to 3e would be to 3e as it approached it's death - 3e bloat.
WotC released Unearthed Arcana (which this feels like to me) for 3E in 2004, about a year into 3.5, just past halfway of the edition's shelf life. There was a lot of content then, but it had certainly not devolved into bloat yet. In fact, I'll posit rules bloat was never really a problem for 3rd edition. Bloat is not a problem of volume, it's a problem of relevance and thematically almost every release for 3E was interesting right up until the end even if some should probably have been conflated into a single volume (the environment books for instance should have been a single exploration book IMO). Third's main problem was a not infrequently sloppy implementation of an otherwise solid system.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
WotC released Unearthed Arcana (which this feels like to me) for 3E in 2004, about a year into 3.5, just past halfway of the edition's shelf life. There was a lot of content then, but it had certainly not devolved into bloat yet. In fact, I'll posit rules bloat was never really a problem for 3rd edition.
Bloat (in the form of splatbook explosions) was a problem with 3.5e -- bloat doesn't mean any given book is a waste of space, it means the system has become unmanageably large and complex.
WotC released Unearthed Arcana (which this feels like to me) for 3E in 2004, about a year into 3.5, just past halfway of the edition's shelf life. There was a lot of content then, but it had certainly not devolved into bloat yet. In fact, I'll posit rules bloat was never really a problem for 3rd edition.
Bloat (in the form of splatbook explosions) was a problem with 3.5e -- bloat doesn't mean any given book is a waste of space, it means the system has become unmanageably large and complex.
Was that the case with 3.5 though? Honestly? What was was so unmanageable about it, or overly complex? 3.5 was no more complicated than 3E was when released, the system itself remained 95% unchanged. Volume by itself doesn’t make anything unmanageable, especially when every sourcebook was optional.
I would like WotC to look at the Combat Maneuver system that Level Up is using. I have always believed that Battle Master should be the baseline for the Fighter Class and while I don't know the details of Level Up's system, it does seem to be basically expanding the Battle Master's abilities into a full fledge system for all Martial characters to use. I am sure WotC's team could give us some thing similar, maybe tied directly to Weapon Type so that the weapon you use matters more. I would like weapon selection to be more than just choosing the highest dice size available to you.
That has always been the primary criteria for weapon selection by fledgling optimizers and min/maxers since day one of the hobby.
I’d love to observe your all’s high level games. I’ve never seen one in which a 20th level martial is carrying only one weapon and that one being a sword..
Whereas spellcasters regularly are without options for foci? It's not likely that a martial is without a weapon, but it's equally unlikely that a spellcaster doesn't have access to material components.
This argument has gone on for a while now and I think I have forgotten what this has to do with "EN World's D&D 5.5e: Somebody Finally Got Tired of Waiting for Wizards to Do It."
Could someone enlighten me?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So on topic.
It seems that Level Up (the official title of the "system" the thread was/is about) seems to be using a type of skill challenge to expand on exploration coupled with variant rules for exhaustion and food. On the surface it seems like a good idea, but I don't know that I like the idea of rolling on random tables. I guess the DM can just pick things from the list or make their own, while the tables are good for new DMs or if you need an idea on the fly.
I think the WotC should also expand on the exploration pillar of the game a bit, but I don't know if this how I would want them to do it. If nothing else the Level Up system provides more than the DMG I guess.
Edit: I do like the Combat Maneuvers though. Anything to give Martial Characters a more diverse selection of actions to take each round.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The majority of spellcasters I've observed carry only one Arcane focus. The next most common is for a Cleric to carry two, but that is vanishingly rare. Beyond that, if they have any other focus, it is in a backpack and not easily accessible in combat.
By contrast, a martial type typically isn't as concerned with encumberance and will carry multiple weapons on their belt, on bandoliers, and on their back.
That's what I've observed in about four decades of gaming.
To return to discussion of En World's money grab, I don't see anything of merit to be gained in trying to make 5e more like 4e. I mean, 4e is widely considered the worst edition ever.
4e books are also easy to get, so if a gamer really wants to play it, they can.
If I'm in a game where the DM strategy is to try to take my focus I would have redundant foci which are cheap and plentiful.
I could also just cast spells with V/S components of which there's many.
Or I could ask my artificer to make me a wand sheath
Or about 10 other ways to easily handle this situation.
If your DM just wants to shut you down they will do it regardless of how you plan because they can do that.... But it's going to be problematic if they do it in a way that has so many blatantly easy ways to counter
Lots to say to this even if it's only three sentences, but in the interest of staying on topic I'll limit this to suggesting this feels much more like a move towards 3E/Pathfinder than towards 4E.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I have to agree. Reading through what they have released, it seems more like a middle ground between 3.5/Pathfinder and 5e. I am not sure if that is good or bad at this point. I would need to actually see the full rules and try it out to make my mind up one way or the other.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Or even PF2e
True. It does make me really curious as to what WotC has in store for us with their upcoming changes. A lot of people on these forums have been asking for more meaningful choice in character creation/leveling as well as more options in combat beyond "I attack with my sword". A greater focus on exploration is another one I see on these forums a lot too. I think it would be a bad idea to not address this in 5.5 (or what ever WotC decides to call it).
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Well, you haven't observed that in four decades because the entire focus concept hasn't been around that long, but the reason people don't carry a lot of foci is because the odds of it making any difference is vanishingly small. As for fighters carrying multiple weapons, the golf bag of weapons is mostly a 3.5 phenomenon due to varying damage resistance in 3.5e, most warriors in other editions carry around their main weapon, an offhand weapon if they use two weapon fighting, and a ranged weapon.
Personally I would like to see this:
1: Split weapons since the dice rolled doesn't matter usually after 5th, just make all one handed weapons light (Maybe excepting the Bludgeoning type) And make all 2 H weapons Heavy, And yes give us more types and a few more interesting weapon traits would be nice as well.
2. Make the healing more interesting, The i touch you heal mechanic is just old and rather boring, and probably the reason you about need to bribe a PC to play a healer. Give us some healing spells that are AoE but maybe risk healing monsters so that the healer gets to engage their brain from time to time. Also more damage prevention would be great, as that often works better than restoring Health. Buffers and THP as well as absorbs and brief invuln or evade may be fun to play with at high levels.
3: Fix the Ranger and Monk. They lack any synergy between their abilities so they just feel like a grab bag of disjointed but cool abilities. These could use to be given some synergy similar to the fighter and rogue
4: Spells: So this may be a bit much, but 5E went all in the wrong way on these, In 3.x the problem with spells was really the unmakable save DC, and it came back in 5E but it is you need a 17+ to save. Make the Save DC static, and use the casting ability for bonus spells. better to have more spells but the save be makable than have a few spells but each can just end a combat outright. As a caveat, the rest spells are also completely broken, Hut and Mansion let parties long rest pretty much with impunity, making resource management irrelevant. These need to be modified to at least allow there to be a counter, especially for Mansion, which has no way to dispel or detect.
5: Monsters. They probably could use a boost to either AC or hit by about 1-3 but not to both. Monsters currently hit like a truck, but accuracy, or defense needs to be able to keep up.
6. Fix the sorcerer's spell list, This is just sad and wrong, The sorcerer needs some love since it got the raw end of the stick transitioning from 3 or 4 to 5 and that needs to be fixed.
7. Tone down the cleric. Any group that has more than one cleric quickly realizes that this class is one of the more unbalanced in the game. Now my suggestion is make the paladin a full caster, and just give them very short range melee oriented spells. then make the cleric the Priest, they are a clothie who is basically a healing mage with hybrid support and control spells all castable at range.
I would like WotC to look at the Combat Maneuver system that Level Up is using. I have always believed that Battle Master should be the baseline for the Fighter Class and while I don't know the details of Level Up's system, it does seem to be basically expanding the Battle Master's abilities into a full fledge system for all Martial characters to use. I am sure WotC's team could give us some thing similar, maybe tied directly to Weapon Type so that the weapon you use matters more. I would like weapon selection to be more than just choosing the highest dice size available to you.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
At best, any comparison to 3e would be to 3e as it approached it's death - 3e bloat.
WotC released Unearthed Arcana (which this feels like to me) for 3E in 2004, about a year into 3.5, just past halfway of the edition's shelf life. There was a lot of content then, but it had certainly not devolved into bloat yet. In fact, I'll posit rules bloat was never really a problem for 3rd edition. Bloat is not a problem of volume, it's a problem of relevance and thematically almost every release for 3E was interesting right up until the end even if some should probably have been conflated into a single volume (the environment books for instance should have been a single exploration book IMO). Third's main problem was a not infrequently sloppy implementation of an otherwise solid system.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Bloat (in the form of splatbook explosions) was a problem with 3.5e -- bloat doesn't mean any given book is a waste of space, it means the system has become unmanageably large and complex.
There's so much that I want to say in response to this statement, but to be honest would probably get me banned.
Was that the case with 3.5 though? Honestly? What was was so unmanageable about it, or overly complex? 3.5 was no more complicated than 3E was when released, the system itself remained 95% unchanged. Volume by itself doesn’t make anything unmanageable, especially when every sourcebook was optional.
I guess I’ll make a note of that and move on then?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
That has always been the primary criteria for weapon selection by fledgling optimizers and min/maxers since day one of the hobby.