I would consider paladin a medium complexity class. The high complexity classes are bard, cleric, druid, and wizard, the truly low complexity choices are fighter (at least some builds) and barbarian.
it is interesting how this whole discussion is being framed. One is given the choice of siding with the claim that martial classes are all boring and one note or is told that claims to the alternative are condescending to people who aren’t getting the full potential of those classes.
Only you are saying that someone needs skill to know how to play the class well....
I think the class can be played perfectly fine by just smiting everything. And in fact that's likely the "optimal" way to play from a pure damage and combat efficiency stand point majority of the time.... But it's also a bit boring and actually using your spells is interesting but likely less effective.
Playing either way is fine
One DOES need skill to know how to play the class to its full potential. That’s a factual statement that most gamers recognize. It is how people such as Treantmonk have gained a certain level of nerd fame.
As for smiting ad nauseum, if that works for you, then do it. If that’s fun for you, have fun. It isn’t the full potential of the class, but you don’t have to play the ful l potential if less is fun enough for you.
Seems like we have a difference of opinion then. Better to leave it and move on.
I'm glad they are attempting to address the divide between martial and caster.
Maybe it will encourage play beyond level 10
The divide should exist. Martials can typically do their thing over and over and over again. Casters can generally run out of spells as well as cast their highest level spell only one to three times.
it is interesting how this whole discussion is being framed. One is given the choice of siding with the claim that martial classes are all boring and one note or is told that claims to the alternative are condescending to people who aren’t getting the full potential of those classes.
Only you are saying that someone needs skill to know how to play the class well....
I think the class can be played perfectly fine by just smiting everything. And in fact that's likely the "optimal" way to play from a pure damage and combat efficiency stand point majority of the time.... But it's also a bit boring and actually using your spells is interesting but likely less effective.
Playing either way is fine
One DOES need skill to know how to play the class to its full potential. That’s a factual statement that most gamers recognize. It is how people such as Treantmonk have gained a certain level of nerd fame.
As for smiting ad nauseum, if that works for you, then do it. If that’s fun for you, have fun. It isn’t the full potential of the class, but you don’t have to play the ful l potential if less is fun enough for you.
Seems like we have a difference of opinion then. Better to leave it and move on.
I'm glad they are attempting to address the divide between martial and caster.
Maybe it will encourage play beyond level 10
The divide should exist. Martials can typically do their thing over and over and over again. Casters can generally run out of spells as well as cast their highest level spell only one to three times.
If people actually played the suggested encounter amount then maybe but that seems to be the rub.... And if the stuff casters got to do by T4 wasn't just so crazy.
Wish/Sim combo literally gives you a second PC for free that has almost all of your spell slots.... So you effectively double them.
The divide should exist. Martials can typically do their thing over and over and over again. Casters can generally run out of spells as well as cast their highest level spell only one to three times.
They don't need to function in exactly the same way, but they should have similarly game breaking abilities. Unfortunately, this either means a serious nerf bat to casters ("I hit it" and "I destroy an army with a swarm of falling rocks" are not on the same scale) or Wuxia scale fighters.
None of this paladin jabber is germane to any topic this thread has ever had, beeteedubs. Not the original topic I intended, not the half-dozen sub-topics it turned into, and not whatever topic got it animated from the graveyard.
Short version: D&D 5e did martial classes dirty, and no amount of "but some people like not having to think or learn the game or make decisions!" excuses that dirtiness. Even palldalladingdongs, arguably the stronkest/most overstacked class in 5e, don't get to do much of anything interesting beyond "I hit it with my hittin' stick". It's not okay, and it bothers some people. Including argumentative ghost *****es who're still trying to figure out how the bleeding hell this thread is back on the front page again.
Because Thread Necromancy isn't against the rules if the mods determine it to still be on topic, despite Thread Necromancy being toxic to any forum even when it's genuinely on topic.
it is interesting how this whole discussion is being framed. One is given the choice of siding with the claim that martial classes are all boring and one note or is told that claims to the alternative are condescending to people who aren’t getting the full potential of those classes.
Only you are saying that someone needs skill to know how to play the class well....
I think the class can be played perfectly fine by just smiting everything. And in fact that's likely the "optimal" way to play from a pure damage and combat efficiency stand point majority of the time.... But it's also a bit boring and actually using your spells is interesting but likely less effective.
Playing either way is fine
One DOES need skill to know how to play the class to its full potential. That’s a factual statement that most gamers recognize. It is how people such as Treantmonk have gained a certain level of nerd fame.
As for smiting ad nauseum, if that works for you, then do it. If that’s fun for you, have fun. It isn’t the full potential of the class, but you don’t have to play the ful l potential if less is fun enough for you.
Seems like we have a difference of opinion then. Better to leave it and move on.
I'm glad they are attempting to address the divide between martial and caster.
Maybe it will encourage play beyond level 10
The divide should exist. Martials can typically do their thing over and over and over again. Casters can generally run out of spells as well as cast their highest level spell only one to three times.
If people actually played the suggested encounter amount then maybe but that seems to be the rub.... And if the stuff casters got to do by T4 wasn't just so crazy.
Wish/Sim combo literally gives you a second PC for free that has almost all of your spell slots.... So you effectively double them.
Remember, the Wish spell is AMAZING!!! and is worth precisely dick when you are being dissolved in the belly of a Legendary Demon Lord and can’t cast.
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
Or you just True polymorph into an ancient bronze dragon yourself.....
Or you just blink out of the plane before you have to deal with the dragon.
Or you magic jar into dragon and you are the dragon now
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
Or you just True polymorph into an ancient bronze dragon yourself.....
Or you just blink out of the plane before you have to deal with the dragon.
Or you magic jar into dragon and you are the dragon now
You seem to have forgotten about concentration checks
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
You’ve apparently never seen the movie Men in Black.
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
Or you just True polymorph into an ancient bronze dragon yourself.....
Or you just blink out of the plane before you have to deal with the dragon.
Or you magic jar into dragon and you are the dragon now
You seem to have forgotten about concentration checks
Which one?
True polymorph where it just becomes permanent? You just cast the spell in your Demiplane and exit as a dragon.
Blink? That spell is non-concentration Teleport too....
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
You’ve apparently never seen the movie Men in Black.
You also realize that being swallowed still lets you spellcast right?
You can't see outside of the thing but you can dimension door out of the thing...
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
You’ve apparently never seen the movie Men in Black.
I don't remember chopping through dimension with an axe in MiB. Being able to attack the monster from inside the monster is not relevant if the barbarian isn't inside the monster at all, he's merely unable to follow Plane Shift.
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
And a target ten feet off the ground has 100% total damage immunity to that guy with a sword.
Everybody has different issues. Martial characters' issues come from them having effectively zero options in a fracas outside of "Can I hit it with my hittin' stick?" Doesn't matter how high a level the martial is. Which is a problem, not a feature.
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled.
No it can't. Neither grappled nor restrained specifies disabling spellcasting, nor do the rules for somatic components, which are generally the same as the requirements for using a weapon. No conditions applied by being swallowed prevent casting.
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
First Impressions, nothing particularly relevant. If any of these have been discussed before then sorry, this thread is like 18 pages I can't bother to read it all. I won't talk about balance stuff because obviously most of the actual mechanics haven't been released.
I noticed the subclasses aren't completely organized by flavor like how some of the subclasses are in 5E (best example being Paladin Oaths), makes sense because Level Up has more choices so your subclass doesn't need to dictate your flavor.
No artificer, but Level Up includes a Marsal. Considering the popularity of homebrew classes revolving around the idea of a martial commander it makes sense to include.
No obvious gish option (I mean like a arcane gish).
finally a proper brawler. I know like Fighter unarmed fighting style exists, but when I imagine brawler I don't imagine some guy in full plate armor.
I wish artistic bards were more recognized in both HB and in actual D&D. At least there doesn't seem to be preventing anything from you making one anyways.
Rare spells is a concept I feel like I should of thought of before and am likely to steal for normal 5E games.
I feel like the schools system isn't really that organized and is more like DNDBeyond's system of tags. I'd probably like it more if they were classified more neatly like Type (Arcane/Nature/Divine/Technological), Purpose (for example Attack vs Teleportation), Damage type, etc.
So they removed the classical spell school system... because they moved it to maneuvers. Okay. Some of these I can tell by their name some of these not so much.
Understandable. Adamant Mountain, Mist and Shade, Rapid Current, Spirited Steed, Tooth and Claw
Never played 4E but I hear it was great combat-wise. I think this basically follows the same train of thought.
Also I just noticed the only maneuver listed that actually states what type of action it uses is Knockdown. I think all of these are supposed to just replace one attack or as a reaction, but I can't find anything that says that.
If I cannot grab my enemy and toss them with my bare hands (Bowling Blitz) I will be disappointed.
Also I can't anime deflect a arrow using a sword, but I can do it with a bow (Countershot). Yes.
The two new skills generic int check (Engineering) and generic wis check (Culture) make sense. I mean we already have Athletics (generic STR), Sleight of Hand? (generic DEX? Arguable I guess), Persuasion (generic CHA), although we are still missing a Endurance (generic CON) check.
Specialties/Expertise Dice, it's just a replacement of Expertise because Expertise breaks bounded accuracy too much. Also INT buff yay.
Actually reinforcing using skills with different ability scores (such as a STR(Intimidation) check) is equally nice
That's something I've thought about. I wouldn't mind a more focused space on the forums for the discussion of third party publications, which are technically homebrew. I think in practice, the Homebrew section of the forums is more for people actually DIYing.
If I were Forum Overlord, I'd probably organize things where there'd be a 1.) "homebrew workshop" space for people building homebrew and playtesting. 2.) A "DDB published homebrew" space where folks can announce their contributions to the DDB community, sort of like the way folks promote their DMsGuild productions on that forum. 3.) Turn the DMsGuild space (or maybe create a parallel space) for folks to hawk their non DMsGuild products (DrivethruRPG, Kickstarters and the like). And finally 4.) a Space where 3rd Party Press and homebrew as true publication ventures can be discussed. My D&D purchases are probably 60% WotC 40% 3rd Party and I suspect I'm not the only person who rolls like that.
But functionally, ENWorld's project is sort of in the same space as Kingdom's and Warfare. I think General Discussion tends to unintionally bury the conversation.
Just reading over the descriptions and few previews that they have provides, much of it is things I have seen people on these forum request from WotC. Expanded Martial class abilities, more guidance on Exploration, options that matter beyond just selecting a subclass, etc. I don't know if it will really take off like Pathfinder did, but it doesn't look too bad. Of course we won't know the details until next month when the PDF of everything is released. I do wonder how closely WotC is watching this.
Edit: Also, watch out for how much information you share here. I guess it counts as advertising and they will delete it.
I would consider paladin a medium complexity class. The high complexity classes are bard, cleric, druid, and wizard, the truly low complexity choices are fighter (at least some builds) and barbarian.
The divide should exist. Martials can typically do their thing over and over and over again. Casters can generally run out of spells as well as cast their highest level spell only one to three times.
If people actually played the suggested encounter amount then maybe but that seems to be the rub.... And if the stuff casters got to do by T4 wasn't just so crazy.
Wish/Sim combo literally gives you a second PC for free that has almost all of your spell slots.... So you effectively double them.
They don't need to function in exactly the same way, but they should have similarly game breaking abilities. Unfortunately, this either means a serious nerf bat to casters ("I hit it" and "I destroy an army with a swarm of falling rocks" are not on the same scale) or Wuxia scale fighters.
Because Thread Necromancy isn't against the rules if the mods determine it to still be on topic, despite Thread Necromancy being toxic to any forum even when it's genuinely on topic.
Remember, the Wish spell is AMAZING!!! and is worth precisely dick when you are being dissolved in the belly of a Legendary Demon Lord and can’t cast.
That’s when you wish your Barbarian buddy with the extraordinary strength and ability to continue to inflict damage while his face was melting off was with you.
Unfortunately, the barbarian buddy lacks any abilities that let him get involved, which is why he's not here. Now, if the barbarian could split dimensions with his axe and flash step by a mile so he could actually get involved on his own, that would be a different situation.
Or you just True polymorph into an ancient bronze dragon yourself.....
Or you just blink out of the plane before you have to deal with the dragon.
Or you magic jar into dragon and you are the dragon now
You seem to have forgotten about concentration checks
You’ve apparently never seen the movie Men in Black.
Which one?
True polymorph where it just becomes permanent? You just cast the spell in your Demiplane and exit as a dragon.
Blink? That spell is non-concentration Teleport too....
Magic Jar? Non concentration.
So no I didn't as they don't apply at all here?
You also realize that being swallowed still lets you spellcast right?
You can't see outside of the thing but you can dimension door out of the thing...
I don't remember chopping through dimension with an axe in MiB. Being able to attack the monster from inside the monster is not relevant if the barbarian isn't inside the monster at all, he's merely unable to follow Plane Shift.
A spell can be halted from being cast by being grappled. A stomach is not a giant room. It is a sack, so to speak, filled with acid and whose contents are constantly experiencing peristalsis.
Further, at 20th level, you aren’t fighting kobolds.
You are going to have to hope that you manage to not be disarmed of your arcane focus as you get constantly squeezed and ground and that it doesn’t get destroyed and that you get free from grappled, while you are continually being digested.
you are also going to have to hope that you have access to planar travel such as Dimension Door and Demiplane and that the Legendary Demon Lord didn’t just use some sort of Dimensional Anchoribg.
For all the awesome power of high level casters, they can find their magic seriously hampered in ways that a sword isn’t.
And a target ten feet off the ground has 100% total damage immunity to that guy with a sword.
Everybody has different issues. Martial characters' issues come from them having effectively zero options in a fracas outside of "Can I hit it with my hittin' stick?" Doesn't matter how high a level the martial is. Which is a problem, not a feature.
Please do not contact or message me.
No it can't. Neither grappled nor restrained specifies disabling spellcasting, nor do the rules for somatic components, which are generally the same as the requirements for using a weapon. No conditions applied by being swallowed prevent casting.
I mean which is more likely....a spellcaster has no useful spells that only have V/S components ( hint there is a lot)
Or rage boi gets their sword taken away?
First Impressions, nothing particularly relevant. If any of these have been discussed before then sorry, this thread is like 18 pages I can't bother to read it all. I won't talk about balance stuff because obviously most of the actual mechanics haven't been released.
Classes/subclasses (link):
Spells (link)
Maneuvers (link)
Skills (link)
Table of Contents (link)
There's also magic items and armor but I'm not going over that.
Also shouldn't this be in Homebrew or...?
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
That's something I've thought about. I wouldn't mind a more focused space on the forums for the discussion of third party publications, which are technically homebrew. I think in practice, the Homebrew section of the forums is more for people actually DIYing.
If I were Forum Overlord, I'd probably organize things where there'd be a 1.) "homebrew workshop" space for people building homebrew and playtesting. 2.) A "DDB published homebrew" space where folks can announce their contributions to the DDB community, sort of like the way folks promote their DMsGuild productions on that forum. 3.) Turn the DMsGuild space (or maybe create a parallel space) for folks to hawk their non DMsGuild products (DrivethruRPG, Kickstarters and the like). And finally 4.) a Space where 3rd Party Press and homebrew as true publication ventures can be discussed. My D&D purchases are probably 60% WotC 40% 3rd Party and I suspect I'm not the only person who rolls like that.
But functionally, ENWorld's project is sort of in the same space as Kingdom's and Warfare. I think General Discussion tends to unintionally bury the conversation.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Just reading over the descriptions and few previews that they have provides, much of it is things I have seen people on these forum request from WotC. Expanded Martial class abilities, more guidance on Exploration, options that matter beyond just selecting a subclass, etc. I don't know if it will really take off like Pathfinder did, but it doesn't look too bad. Of course we won't know the details until next month when the PDF of everything is released. I do wonder how closely WotC is watching this.
Edit: Also, watch out for how much information you share here. I guess it counts as advertising and they will delete it.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master